Explosion at Disneyland, Disney Employee arrested in connection...

[|Numbers|]

http://ktla.com/2013/05/29/toontown-evacuated-after-explosion-at-disneyland/#axzz2Uj62dc4w

 

 

Disneyland Employee Arrested in Toontown Explosion

ANAHEIM, Calif. (KTLA) — A Disneyland employee was arrested in connection with a small dry-ice explosion in the theme park’s Toontown area, Anaheim police said on Wednesday

 

 

In other news, Saudi Cleric said Mickey Mouse must die...

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,427061,00.html

 

 

Sheikh Mohamed al-Munajid, a cleric who often appears on Saudi television and who is also a former Saudi diplomat in the United States, called the loveable Disney rodent “one of Satan’s soldiers” last week, saying household mice and their animated counterparts must be rubbed out.

"Sharia (Islamic law) calls for the extermination of all mice. That includes the rodents as well as the famous cartoon mouse," he said.

 

 

Note:  There is no connection with Islamic Militants.  I just thought it odd when trying to find this employee's reasoning behind the "explosion."  Could have been much worse than what did happen.

[|Bunghole|]

I love the literal interpretation of religious texts by whackjob fanatics. It crosses all religious lines. You'd think the Westboro Baptist Church, the Wahhabist Islamists, fundamentalist Orthodox Jews and whatnot would all band together for a common cause to kill us heathens.

[|Numbers|]

I love the literal interpretation of religious texts by whackjob fanatics. It crosses all religious lines. You'd think the Westboro Baptist Church, the Wahhabist Islamists, fundamentalist Orthodox Jews and whatnot would all band together for a common cause to kill us heathens.

 

Back in the day the Bible was not open to interpretation.  Now that people interpret the meaning of the Bible it can be interpreted a half dozen different ways and most of them are all wrong.  The Bible is not even wrote in the same language it was initially written.  Therefore what most people read is an interpretation already.  In regards to Quran, from what I understand, "there are no original versions of any Quran texts."  Therefore, the Quran is also an interpretation.  Someone more familiar with the Torah can comment on it's origin.

 

Edit:  The Quran was written in Arabic originally.

[T-Dub]

 

Back in the day the Bible was not open to interpretation.  Now that people interpret the meaning of the Bible it can be interpreted a half dozen different ways and most of them are all wrong.  The Bible is not even wrote in the same language it was initially written. 

 

 

Not only that, but it's been translated through several different languages and heavily edited depending on the agenda of whoever was doing the translating.

 

IMO the main problem is that they (Xians/Jews/Muslims) think God told Abraham that he gave them the land of the Canaanites and they've been fighting over it ever since even though I'd guess a lot of them (Xians, mostly) aren't at all familiar with that common thread.

 

Or, y'know, that God gave them anything other than possibly, assumedly, a brain between their ears with which to determine the idiocy of fighting over a concept like "Holy" land.

[Khatmandude]

 

Back in the day the Bible was not open to interpretation.  Now that people interpret the meaning of the Bible it can be interpreted a half dozen different ways and most of them are all wrong.  The Bible is not even wrote in the same language it was initially written.  Therefore what most people read is an interpretation already.  In regards to Quran, from what I understand, "there are no original versions of any Quran texts."  Therefore, the Quran is also an interpretation.  Someone more familiar with the Torah can comment on it's origin.

 

Edit:  The Quran was written in Arabic originally.

 

There are originals of the Qur'an.....which hasn't changed since it was revealed.  Sure, the translations may vary by author but the original text is absolutely there.  Since its revelation, people have been memorizing it, to this day there are many who have memorized the Quran to keep from being changed by man like the Bible has been.  This will always be the case.  The Bible still has much truth left in it....Constantine and the Council at Nicea didn't corrupt everything.   

 

There has been a concerted effort though, especially since 2002, to rumor that the Quran is not in its original text.  That's disinformation, for what purpose Im not quite sure.  The Quran will NEVER be changed.  Millions of people have it in their brain.  That's all fact. 

 

BJ did a thread on this a while back, but it showed the scientific data contained in the Quran that has only been proven recently, in the 19th century forward.  An illiterate man, receiving a revelation in a cave in Arabia, was able to explain embryonic development, how clouds form, the laws of the universe, the ever expanding universe etc.....  So many examples where science has just now confirmed.  The Quran also states that the body of Pharoah will be preserved as a sign for mankind.....when was the Pharoah's body found?  After the revelation of the Quran.....this is Ramses II in all likelihood as that's who scholars are saying the washed up.  He was not mummified, yet preserved.  Nah...the Quran is all about killing people, what am I talking about. 

[|Numbers|]

 

There are originals of the Qur'an.....which hasn't changed since it was revealed.  Sure, the translations may vary by author but the original text is absolutely there.  Since its revelation, people have been memorizing it, to this day there are many who have memorized the Quran to keep from being changed by man like the Bible has been.  This will always be the case.  The Bible still has much truth left in it....Constantine and the Council at Nicea didn't corrupt everything.   

 

There has been a concerted effort though, especially since 2002, to rumor that the Quran is not in its original text.  That's disinformation, for what purpose Im not quite sure.  The Quran will NEVER be changed.  Millions of people have it in their brain.  That's all fact. 

 

BJ did a thread on this a while back, but it showed the scientific data contained in the Quran that has only been proven recently, in the 19th century forward.  An illiterate man, receiving a revelation in a cave in Arabia, was able to explain embryonic development, how clouds form, the laws of the universe, the ever expanding universe etc.....  So many examples where science has just now confirmed.  The Quran also states that the body of Pharoah will be preserved as a sign for mankind.....when was the Pharoah's body found?  After the revelation of the Quran.....this is Ramses II in all likelihood as that's who scholars are saying the washed up.  He was not mummified, yet preserved.  Nah...the Quran is all about killing people, what am I talking about. 

 

I seem to remember that discussion / posting a while back.  It's interesting to learn about different cultures and their interpretation of their lives along with their beliefs.  If the "translations may vary by author but the original text is absolutely there" would that not be the same as saying translation = interpretation ?  Thus variations in texts = not original ?  Even by their own admission the Quran was obtained from various sources for compilation and had variations in their text.

 

http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t243/e275

 

 

By the time of Muhammad's death, several of his followers had memorized the entire Qur'an. Many of them, however, were killed in battle. Fearing that knowledge of the Qur'an might be lost, the leaders of the Islamic community decided to collect all the revelations, from both written and oral sources, and to compile an official version of the sacred text. Many partial collections existed. They were among the possessions of Muhammad's wives, his companions, and scribes. These collections contained variations, further demonstrating the need for a single authoritative source.

compiled after his death

 

...number nineteen

 

Does the Quran indeed rival the Bible in it's prophecies ?

 

 

http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch1.html

 

 

...the earliest tangible appearance of the complete Qur'an in its present form dates from the 10th century

 

...compiled a complete quranic manuscript before his death in 632 AD

 

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:

So I started compiling the Quran by collecting it from the leafless stalks of the date-palm tree and from the pieces of leather and hides and from the stones, and from the chests of men (who had memorized the Quran). I found the last verses of Sirat-at-Tauba: ("Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves--' (9.128-129)) from Khuzaima or Abi Khuzaima and I added to it the rest of the Sura. 41

 

the memories of several hundreds of the close companions of Mohammed were all supernaturally enhanced so as to allow them all to memorize the quranic recitations, so that the Qur'an was preserved perfectly in their witness as well. But again, this begs the question of why Zaid would have to range far and wide to search out every last ayat if they were readily available in the memories of any one of hundreds of companions who were readily on hand ?

 

"Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam from al-Qaqa ibn Hakim that Abu Yunus, the mawla of A'isha, umm al-muminin [Mother of the Believers] said, ''A'isha ordered me to write out a Qur'an for her. She said, 'When you reach this ayat [2:238), let me know, "Guard the prayers carefully and the middle prayer and stand obedient to Allah.[hafiz 'ala s-salawati wa-s-salati l-wusta wa qumu li-l-lahi qanitin]" ' When I reached it I told her, and she dictated to me, 'Guard the prayers carefully and the middle prayer and the asr prayer and stand obedient to Allah. [hafiz 'ala s-salawati wa-s-salati l-wusta wa-s-salati l-'asri wa qumu li-l-lahi qanitin]' A'isha said, 'I heard it from the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace.'" 56

 

Though the change itself is minor, this again provides proof from the Muslim traditions themselves as to the fluidity of the quranic text before it was fixed.

 

 

http://answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/number19.html

 

 

‘What are the possibilities of a book being written and by 'chance' successfully weaving an interlocking system based on the number 19?’ the computer's reply is - ‘The odds of such happening are: 626 Septillions to one against such a happening.’"

 

[Khatmandude]

Answering Islam is not impartial....they twist things to discredit Islam.  I would suggest a credible sight if you're going to do research on Islam.  CARM has no integrity either :)   

 

Since its revelation, the Quran has been memorized and its Arabic text kept in tact as a result.  Sure you'll have some variations in the translations but that's for a word here and there, not concepts.  Those are clear.   Those Arabic will NEVER be changed, EVER.  This is a promise from God.  Millions have the Quran dedicated to memory. 

[Khatmandude]

 

I seem to remember that discussion / posting a while back.  It's interesting to learn about different cultures and their interpretation of their lives along with their beliefs.  If the "translations may vary by author but the original text is absolutely there" would that not be the same as saying translation = interpretation ?  Thus variations in texts = not original ?  Even by their own admission the Quran was obtained from various sources for compilation and had variations in their text.

 

http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t243/e275

 

 

http://www.studytoanswer.net/myths_ch1.html

 

 

http://answering-islam.org/Nehls/Ask/number19.html

 

 

Also....the translation that is being questioned here.....the website got it wrong (no surprise).  The translation is actually "Guard the middle prayer"....which is the Asr prayer.  5 prayers during the day....Fajr, Duhr, Asr, Maghrib and Isha.  Asr is the middle prayer so the translator was clarifying, not adding text.  There cannot be a middle prayer AND the Asr prayer....they are one in the same. 

 

Just as this example....those unfamiliar with the Quran who try to discredit it do nothing but discredit themselves.  Learn it, study it and its meaning.

[|Numbers|]

 

There are originals of the Qur'an.....which hasn't changed since it was revealed. 

 

Where is the original Quran ?  Trying to find where but to no avail.

 

Since its revelation, the Quran has been memorized and its Arabic text kept in tact as a result.   

 

I am not trying to discredit Islam nor am I trying to discredit the Quran (or any other religion for that matter) but if man is required to memorize something and recite that something, the words will eventually be distorted or completely left out.  Man is imperfect and this world we live in has proved that over and over again in all religions and all cultures.  Without an original text there is no way to know with certainty that the Arabic text was kept intact.

 

I want to thank you for your help in this matter.  Perhaps it will help others understand by learning, discussing, and studying the various religious texts with an impartial view.

 

+1 to you.

[|Bunghole|]

 

those unfamiliar with the Quran who try to discredit it do nothing but discredit themselves.  Learn it, study it and its meaning.

And those that twist the true meaning of the words in the Quran to commit atrocities, which is what I was getting at. Same goes for the Bible...and any other religious text that gets put forth as a reason to murder innocent people.

[T-Dub]

And those that twist the true meaning of the words in the Quran to commit atrocities, which is what I was getting at. Same goes for the Bible...and any other religious text that gets put forth as a reason to murder innocent people.

 

Please explain to me how the "true meanings" of these words have been twisted:
 

 

 

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16

 

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. Deuteronomy 22:23-24

 

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate: And the damsel's father shall say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city. ... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die. Deuteronomy 22:13-21

 

If there be found among you ... that ... hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them ... Then shalt thou ... tone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17:2-5

 

 

 

It goes on and on.. LOL at anyone calling the Quran "violent."

[|Bunghole|]

 

Please explain to me how the "true meanings" of these words have been twisted:
 

 

It goes on and on.. LOL at anyone calling the Quran "violent."

Eh, the Old Testament is filled with crazy bullshit, fairy tales, etc. The central tenet of Christianity is in the New Testament, which is quite simply, to love and forgive and to be forgiven.

[T-Dub]

Eh, the Old Testament is filled with crazy bullshit, fairy tales, etc.

 

 

You mean the Creation, Adam & Eve, Moses, the Ten Commandments? Or just the parts you find inconvenient?

 

The central tenet of Christianity is in the New Testament, which is quite simply, to love and forgive and to be forgiven.

 

Er.. lots of people have said that, that's not really religion so much as advice. That has nothing to do with believing in a messiah or defining God.  But, ok:

 

 

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."   Matthew 10:34

 

"After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power." 1 Corinthians 15:24

 

"But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me" Luke 19:27

 

 

 

And we won't even get into Revelations.. That's great if what you take away from it is "love and forgive", but let's not pretend that's all it says or that those ideas are in any way unique or even representative of Christianity as practiced or in how it's affected the world.

[Khatmandude]

 

Where is the original Quran ?  Trying to find where but to no avail.

 

 

I am not trying to discredit Islam nor am I trying to discredit the Quran (or any other religion for that matter) but if man is required to memorize something and recite that something, the words will eventually be distorted or completely left out.  Man is imperfect and this world we live in has proved that over and over again in all religions and all cultures.  Without an original text there is no way to know with certainty that the Arabic text was kept intact.

 

I want to thank you for your help in this matter.  Perhaps it will help others understand by learning, discussing, and studying the various religious texts with an impartial view.

 

+1 to you.

 

No way, don't think that's your intention fully....sorry if that's how my posts come off (defensive), it's almost habit now :)

 

As to your question:

 

 

Imagine this scenario:

A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech, if these same students decided to replicate professor's complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not. Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory.

Therefore, for any claimants to proclaim that their scripture is preserved in purity, they have to provide concrete evidence that the Scripture was written in its entirety AND memorized in its entirety from the time it was revealed to our time, in a continuous and unbroken chain. If the memorization part doesn't exist parallel to the written part to act as a check and balance for it, then there is a genuine possibility that the written scripture may loose its purity through unintentional and intentional interpolations due to scribal errors, corruption by the enemies, pages getting decomposed etc, and these errors would be concurrently incorporated into subsequent texts, ultimately loosing its purity through ages.

Now, of all the religions mentioned above, does any one of them possess their scriptures in its entirety BOTH in writing AND in memory from the day of its revelation until our time.

None of them fit this required criteria, except one: This unique scripture is the Qur'an - revelation bestowed to Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) 1,418 years ago, as a guidance for all of humankind.

Lets analyze the claim of the preservation of the Quran...




Memorization

'In the ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown' relates Michael Zwettler.(1)

Prophet Muhammad (S): The First Memorizer

It was in this 'oral' society that Prophet Muhammad (S) was born in Mecca in the year 570 C.E. At the age of 40, he started receiving divine Revelations from the One God, Allah, through Archangel Gabriel. This process of divine revelations continued for about 22.5 years just before he passed away.

Prophet Muhammad (S) miraculously memorized each revelation and used to proclaim it to his Companions. Angel Gabriel used to refresh the Quranic memory of the Prophet each year.

'The Prophet (S) was the most generous person, and he used to become more so (generous) particularly in the month of Ramadan because Gabriel used to meet him every night of the month of Ramadan till it elapsed. Allah's Messenger (S) use to recite the Qur'an for him. When Gabriel met him, he use to become more generous than the fast wind in doing good'. (2)

'Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet (S) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he (Prophet) died'. (3)

The Prophet himself use to stay up a greater part of the night in prayers and use to recite Quran from memory.
 

Prophet's Companions: The First Generation Memorizers

Prophet Muhammad (S) encouraged his companions to learn and teach the Quran:

'The most superior among you (Muslims) are those who learn the Qur'an and teach it'. (4)

'Some of the companions who memorized the Quran were: 'Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud, Abu Huraira, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Aisha, Hafsa, and Umm Salama'. (5)

'Abu Bakr, the first male Muslim to convert to Islam used to recite the Quran publicly in front of his house in Makka'. (6)

The Prophet also listened to the recitation of the Qur'an by the Companions: 'Allah Apostle said to me (Abdullah bin Mas'ud): "Recite (of the Quran) to me". I said: "Shall I recite it to you although it had been revealed to you?!" He Said: "I like to hear (the Quran) from others". So I recited Sura-an-Nisa' till I reached: "How (will it be) then when We bring from each nation a witness and We bring you (O Muhammad) as a witness against these people?"' (4:41) 'Then he said: "Stop!" Behold, his eyes were shedding tears then'. (7)

Many Quranic memorizers (Qurra) were present during the lifetime of the Prophet and afterwards through out the then Muslim world.

'At the battle of Yamama, many memorizers of the Quran were martyred. 'Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al Ansari, who was one of those who use to write the Divine Revelations: Abu Bakr sent me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra (those who memorized the entire Quran) at other place..."' (8)

'Over the centuries of the Islamic Era, there have arisen throughout the various regions of the Islamic world literally thousands of schools devoted specially to the teaching of the Quran to children for the purpose of memorization. These are called, in Arabic, katatib (singular: Kuttab). It is said that the Caliph 'Umar (634-44) first ordered the construction of these schools in the age of the great expansion'. (9)



Second Generation Memorizers:

"...Quranic schools were set up everywhere. As an example to illustrate this I may refer to a great Muslim scholar, of the second Muslim generation, Ibn 'Amir, who was the judge of Damascus under the Caliph Umar Ibn 'Abd Al-Aziz. It is reported that in his school for teaching the Quran there were 400 disciples to teach in his absence". (10)



Memorizers in Subsequent Generations:

The Number of Katatib and similar schools in Cairo (Egypt) alone at one time exceeded two thousand. (11)

Currently both in the Muslim and non-Muslim countries thousands of schools with each instructing tens of hundreds of students the art of memorizing the entire Quran. In the city of Chicago itself, there are close to 40+ Mosques, with many of them holding class for children instructing them the art of Quranic memorization.



Further Points of Consideration:

* Muslims recite Quran from their memory in all of their five daily prayers. * Once a year, during the month of Fasting (Ramadan), Muslims listen to the complete recitation of the Quran by a Hafiz (memorizer of the entire Quran) * It's a tradition among Muslims that before any speech or presentation, marriages, sermons, Quran is recited.



Conclusion:

Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy.

Thus the process of memorization was continuous , from Prophet

Muhammad's (S) time to ours with an unbroken chain.

"The method of transmitting the Quran from one generation to the next by having he young memorize the oral recitation of their elders had mitigated somewhat from the beginning the worst perils of relying solely on written records..." relates John Burton (12)

"This phenomenon of Quranic recital means that the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken living sequence of devotion. It cannot, therefore, be handled as an antiquarian thing, nor as a historical document out of a distant past. The fact of hifz (Quranic Memorization) has made the Qur'an a present possession through all the lapse of Muslim time and given it a human currency in every generation never allowing its relegation to a bare authority for reference alone" reflects Kenneth Cragg (13)
 

Written Text of the Quran

Prophet's Time:

Prophet Muhammad (S) was very vigilant in preserving the Quran in the written form from the very beginning up until the last revelation. The Prophet himself was unlettered, did not knew how to read and write, therefore he called upon his numerous scribes to write the revelation for him. Complete Quran thus existed in written form in the lifetime of the Prophet.

Whenever a new revelation use to come to him, the Prophet would immediately call one of his scribes to write it down.

'Some people visited Zaid Ibn Thabit (one of the scribes of the Prophet) and asked him to tell them some stories about Allah's Messenger. He replied: "I was his (Prophet's) neighbor, and when the inspiration descended on him he sent for me and I went to him and wrote it down for him..." (14)

Narrated by al-Bara': There was revealed 'Not equal are those believers who sit (home) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah' (4:95). The Prophet said: 'Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the ink pot and scapula bone.' Then he (Prophet) said: 'Write: Not equal are those believers...' (15)

Zaid is reported to have said: 'We use to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle'. (16)

'The Prophet, while in Madinah, had about 48 scribes who use to write for him'. (17)

Abdullah Ibn 'Umar relates:... 'The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "Do not take the Qur'an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy"' (18)

During the Prophet's last pilgrimage, he gave a sermon in which he said: 'I have left with you something which if you will hold fast t it you will never fall into error - a plain indication, the Book of God (Quran) and the practice of his Prophet...' (19)

'Besides the official manuscripts of the Quran kept with the Prophet, many of his companions use to possess their own written copies of the revelation'. (20)

'A list of Companions of whom it is related that they had their own written collections included the following: Ibn Mas'ud, Ubay bin Ka'b, Ali, Ibn Abbas, Abu Musa, Hafsa, Anas bin Malik, Umar, Zaid bin Thabit, Ibn Al-Zubair, Abdullah ibn Amr, Aisha, Salim, Umm Salama, Ubaid bin Umar'. (21)

'The best known among these (Prophet's Scribes) are: Ibn Masud, Ubay bin Kab and Zaid bin Thabit'. (22)

'Aisha and Hafsa, the wives of the Prophet had their own scripts written after the Prophet had died'. (23)



Conclusion:

The complete Quran was written down in front of the Prophet by several of his scribes and the companions possess their own copies of the Quran in the Prophet's lifetime. However the written material of the Quran in the Prophet's possession were not bounded between the two covers in the form of a book, because the period of revelation of the Qur'an continued up until just a few days before the Prophet's death. The task of collecting the Qur'an as a book was therefore undertaken by Abu Bakr, the first successor to the Prophet.



Written Quran in First Generation:

At the battle of Yamama (633 CE), six months after the death of the Prophet, a number of Muslims, who had memorized the Quran were killed. Hence it was feared that unless a written official copy of the Quran were prepared, a large part of revelation might be lost.

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al-Ansari, one of the scribes of the Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra (memorizers of the Quran, were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle) of Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra at other places, whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost, unless you collect it (in one manuscript, or book)...so Abu Bakr said to me (Zaid bin Thabit): You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness) and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript)'...So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who know it by heart)..." (24)

Now, a committee was formed to under take the task of collecting the written Quranic material in the form of a book. The committee was headed by Zaid bin Thabit, the original scribe of the Prophet, who was also a memorizer of the complete Quran.

'...Zaid bin Thabit had committed the entire Quran to memory...' (25)

The compilers in this committee, in examining written material submitted to them, insisted on very stringent criteria as a safeguard against any errors.

1. The material must have been originally written down in the presence of the Prophet; nothing written down later on the basis of memory alone was to be accepted. (26) 2. The material must be confirmed by two witnesses, that is to say, by two trustworthy persons testifying that they themselves had heard the Prophet recite the passage in question. (27)

'The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Umar (the second successor), till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, 'Umar's daughter (and wife of the Prophet)'. (28)

This copy of the Quran, prepared by the committee of competent companions of the Prophet (which included Memorizers of the Quran) was unanimous approved by the whole Muslim world. If they committee would have made a error even of a single alphabet in transcribing the Quran, the Qurra (memorizers of the Quran) which totaled in the tens of hundreds would have caught it right away and correct it. This is exactly where the neat check and balance system of preservation of the Quran comes into play, but which is lacking for any other scripture besides the Quran.


Official written copy by Uthman

The Quran was originally revealed in Quraishi dialect of Arabic. But to facilitate the people who speak other dialects, in their understanding and comprehension, Allah revealed the Quran finally in seven dialects of Arabic. During the period of Caliph Uthman (second successor to the Prophet) differences in reading the Quran among the various tribes became obvious, due to the various dialectical recitations. Dispute was arising, with each tribe calling its recitation as the correct one. This alarmed Uthman, who made a official copy in the Quraishi dialect, the dialect in which the Quran was revealed to the Prophet and was memorized by his companions. Thus this compilation by Uthman's Committee is not a different version of the Quran (like the Biblical versions) but the same original revelation given to the Prophet by One God, Allah.

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azherbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their differences in the recitation of the Quran, so he said to Uthman, 'O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and Christians did before'. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent it to Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in their (Quraishi) tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied and ordered that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt..." (29)



Again a very stringent criteria was set up by this Committee to prevent any alteration of the Revelation.

1. The earlier recension (Original copy prepared by Abu Bakr) was to serve as the principal basis of the new one. (30) 2. Any doubt that might be raised as to the phrasing of a particular passage in the written text was to be dispelled by summoning persons known to have learned the passage in question from the Prophet. (31) 3. Uthman himself was to supervise the work of the Council. (32)

When the final recension was completed, Uthman sent a copy of it to each of the major cities of Makka, Damascus, Kufa, Basra and Madina.

The action of Uthman to burn the other copies besides the final recension, though obviously drastic, was for the betterment and harmony of the whole community and was unanimously approved by the Companions of the Prophet.

Zaid ibn Thabit is reported to have said: "I saw the Companions of Muhammad (going about) saying, 'By God, Uthman has done well! By God, Uthman has done well!" (33)

Another esteemed Companion Musab ibn Sad ibn Abi Waqqas said: "I saw the people assemble in large number at Uthman's burning of the prescribed copies (of the Quran), and they were all pleased with his action; not a one spoke out against him". (34)

Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin of the Prophet and the fourth successor to the Prophet commented: "If I were in command in place of Uthman, I would have done the same". (35)

Of the copies made by Uthman, two still exist to our day. One is in the city of Tashkent, (Uzbekistan) and the second one is in Istanbul (Turkey). Below is a brief account of both these copies:

1. The copy which Uthman sent to Madina was reportedly removed by the Turkish authorities to Istanbul, from where it came to Berlin during World War I. The Treaty of Versailles, which concluded World War I, contains the following clause:

'Article 246: Within six months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, Germany will restore to His Majesty, King of Hedjaz, the original Koran of Caliph Othman, which was removed from Madina by the Turkish authorities and is stated to have been presented to the ex-Emperor William II". (36)

'This manuscript then reached Istanbul, but not Madina (Where it now resides)'. (37)

2. The second copy in existence is kept in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. 'It may be the Imam (master) manuscript or one of the other copies made at the time of Uthman'. (38)

It Came to Samarkand in 890 Hijra (1485) and remained there till 1868. Then it was taken to St.Petersburg by the Russians in 1869. It remained there till 1917. A Russian orientalist gave a detailed description of it, saying that many pages were damaged and some were missing. A facsimile, some 50 copies, of this mushaf (copy) was produced by S.Pisareff in 1905. A copy was sent to the Ottoman Sultan 'Abdul Hamid, to the Shah of Iran, to the Amir of Bukhara, to Afghanistan, to Fas and some important Muslim personalities. One copy is now in the Columbia University Library (U.S.A.). (39)

'The Manuscript was afterwards returned to its former place and reached Tashkent in 1924, where it has remained since'. (40)

 

Conclusion:

'Two of the copies of the Qur'an which were originally prepared in the time of Caliph Uthman, are still available to us today and their text and arrangement can be compared, by anyone who cares to do, with any other copy of the Quran, be it in print or handwritten, from any place or period of time. They will be found identical'. (41)

It can now be proclaimed, through the evidences provided above, with full conviction and certainty that the Prophet memorized the entire Quran, had it written down in front of him through his scribes, many of his companions memorized the entire revelation and in turn possess their own private copies for recitation and contemplation. This process of dual preservation of the Quran in written and in the memory was carried in each subsequent generation till our time, without any deletion, interpolation or corruption of this Divine Book.

Sir Williams Muir states, " There is otherwise every security, internal and external, that we possess the text which Muhammad himself gave forth and used". (42)

Sir William Muir continues, "There is probably no other book in the world which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text". (43)

This divine protection provided to the Quran, the Last Reveled Guide to Humanity, is proclaimed by One God in the Quran:

We* (Allah) have, without doubt, send down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)' (Quran - Chapter 15, Verse 9). *('We' is the plural of Majesty, and not the Christian plural of trinity)

Compare this divine and historical preservation of the Quran with any literature, be it religious or secular and it becomes evident that none possess similar miraculous protection. And as states earlier, a belief is as authentic as the authenticity of its scripture. And if any scripture is not preserved, how can we be certain that the belief arising out of this scripture is divine or man made, and if we are not sure about the belief itself, then our salvation in the hereafter would be jeopardized. Thus this above evidence for the protection of the Quran from any corruption is a strong hint about its divine origin. We request all open hearted persons to read, understand and live the Quran, the 'Manual for Mankind'.

 

 

http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/quran_proof_preservation.htm

[Jamie_B]

I always knew Donald Duck had anger managment problems. :D

[Khatmandude]

 

 

 

You mean the Creation, Adam & Eve, Moses, the Ten Commandments? Or just the parts you find inconvenient?

 

 

Er.. lots of people have said that, that's not really religion so much as advice. That has nothing to do with believing in a messiah or defining God.  But, ok:

 

 

 

And we won't even get into Revelations.. That's great if what you take away from it is "love and forgive", but let's not pretend that's all it says or that those ideas are in any way unique or even representative of Christianity as practiced or in how it's affected the world.

 

 

I think it's easy for someone who hasn't fully studied the texts to make these claims but the overall message is that of a peaceful existence.  Sure there are some verses that can be looked at as violent but is it understood WHY those verses were revealed?  I would imagine, like the Quran, the Bible has verses that were revealed for a specific people and a specific time to deal with a specific situation.   Context is ignored many times to discredit.

 

You da man....very few people these days are actually defending religion because its unpopular and the brainwashing that's been going on for the past 15 yrs regarding God has had a huge effect on people's mental. 

[scharm]

I always knew Donald Duck had anger managment problems. :D

 

Ducks in general.   Daffy wasn't a walk in the park, either.

[T-Dub]

I would absolutely agree that the Bible makes more sense when placed in historic context, the dietary/grooming stuff being the most obvious example..  I also think a good deal of it was born of ignorance and that parts of it are simply wrong. I don't think most Christians are aware of how much Islam parallels Christianity, either.  Personally I don't believe in any messiah, and think a lot of what Jesus was actually saying (if he was indeed a single person) was that he was not unique, that we're all basically Sons of God and that the path of enlightenment is open to anyone that seeks it, & further that it was up to us to do so and live as such by our actions rather than appealing to him for salvation. From what I've read about the translation errors & editing it seems even more likely to me that that was the message.

[|Numbers|]

 

No way, don't think that's your intention fully....sorry if that's how my posts come off (defensive), it's almost habit now :)

 

As to your question:

 

 

http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/quran/quran_proof_preservation.htm

 

Thanks.  Gabriel has always intrigued me and his conversations with people of various religions or of various religions mentioning his name as one of the few angels to have their name mentioned.  It is also a popular name in my family.

 

Biblical tradition holds that Gabriel will blow his horn at the day of judgment (interpreted as Resurrection of the Dead and the Second Coming of Christ).  Islam believes it will be Israfel who will blow his horn to announce the day of resurrection.

 

Tried to find mention of this in the Quran and the Bible but no mention of Gabriel and or Israfel (blowing a horn/triumpet)

 

Stepping back from a religious perspective for a moment and try to look at this idea of religion from a different perspective.

 

1.  Is it possible that most religions are derived from one source and that one source occurred much earlier than any written or memorized piece of literature ?  Quite a few similarities in most religions to be a coincidence.  (similarities in text, etc... )

2.  If Angels do exist, why are they busy confusing other religions and thus creating more religions instead of just one true religion ?  Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Mormonism, etc...

3.  Here is where I get struck by lightning...  IF God is all powerful why is there so much sorrow here on earth and so many bad people ?  I know Christianity's answer to this but would like to here another perspective.

[Khatmandude]

I would absolutely agree that the Bible makes more sense when placed in historic context, the dietary/grooming stuff being the most obvious example..  I also think a good deal of it was born of ignorance and that parts of it are simply wrong. I don't think most Christians are aware of how much Islam parallels Christianity, either.  Personally I don't believe in any messiah, and think a lot of what Jesus was actually saying (if he was indeed a single person) was that he was not unique, that we're all basically Sons of God and that the path of enlightenment is open to anyone that seeks it, & further that it was up to us to do so and live as such by our actions rather than appealing to him for salvation. From what I've read about the translation errors & editing it seems even more likely to me that that was the message.

 

I agree that Jesus' message was corrupted by various people, most notably Constantine and the Council of Nicaea.  That's when Jesus was made to be 'divine'.  Why did the church not include Jesus' own brother's gospel?

 

As a Muslim, I do believe that there is the Messiah though :)  And I believe him to be Jesus Christ. 

[T-Dub]

As a Muslim, I do believe that there is the Messiah though :)  And I believe him to be Jesus Christ. 

 

Well that's just confusing!

[Khatmandude]

 

Thanks.  Gabriel has always intrigued me and his conversations with people of various religions or of various religions mentioning his name as one of the few angels to have their name mentioned.  It is also a popular name in my family.

 

Biblical tradition holds that Gabriel will blow his horn at the day of judgment (interpreted as Resurrection of the Dead and the Second Coming of Christ).  Islam believes it will be Israfel who will blow his horn to announce the day of resurrection.

 

Tried to find mention of this in the Quran and the Bible but no mention of Gabriel and or Israfel (blowing a horn/triumpet)

 

Stepping back from a religious perspective for a moment and try to look at this idea of religion from a different perspective.

 

1.  Is it possible that most religions are derived from one source and that one source occurred much earlier than any written or memorized piece of literature ?  Quite a few similarities in most religions to be a coincidence.  (similarities in text, etc... )

2.  If Angels do exist, why are they busy confusing other religions and thus creating more religions instead of just one true religion ?  Islam, Judaism, Christianity, Mormonism, etc...

3.  Here is where I get struck by lightning...  IF God is all powerful why is there so much sorrow here on earth and so many bad people ?  I know Christianity's answer to this but would like to here another perspective.

 

1.  In Islam, we believe that all the Prophets followed the same religion....Monotheism.  One True God, no idols.  Moses (pbuh) brought the Torah, when it became corrupted and the people had abandoned its teaching, Jesus (pbuh) was sent with the Injil...the Gospel, which re-affirmed Moses' message.  Then, when the Gospel had been corrupted by man, Muhammad (pbuh) was sent down with the final message, promised to be safeguarded from corruption....the Quran.  The Quran validates the Torah and Gospel, stating they were the revelations of God. 

 

2. The Quran and authentic hadith teach that Angels are not able to disobey.  They were created to obey God, programmed by God to not be disobedient.  Angels, such as Gabriel, have never brought down different religions, only Monotheism.  

 

3. We have free will, we have a choice to do what we want and as a result, the consequences of these actions manifest themselves in the ways they do.......this is the fault of humans.  Islam teaches that this life is a test, to endure and persevere.  Be the best person YOU can be...that's why its said that the greatest Jihad, or struggle, is the internal Jihad.  The journey to be a complete human being.  Feeding all your chakras in a positive manner.   Life is simply a test.  Justice, Ultimate justice will be served to each and every single one of us. 

 

I think the problem comes in when we humans try to understand everything instantly and if it doesn't make sense to us immediately, then obviously it's false.  This is foolish.

 

Well that's just confusing!

 

Haha....how so? 

[Khatmandude]

Numbers, meant to comment on the blowing of the horn.  Gabriel (Jibril in Arabic) is the Angel responsible for revelation.  Israfel is the angel responsible for signalling the day.   That's why Gabriel was sent to multiple prophets. 

 

Islam teaches that humans were made from clay, angels from light, jinn from smokeless fire.  Shaytan is a jinn, not an angel (fallen angel) as per Christianity. 

 

History of religion is quite fascinating.  Starting from the Sumerians to today.  Very very fascinating. 

[T-Dub]

Haha....how so? 

 

I take it you meant "a" messiah, rather than "the" as in singular.  I know that Islam does consider Jesus a legitimate prophet (more or less). 

 

On a more practical note, what do you think would happen if the UN convinced Israel to give up its claim to the Old City section of Jerusalem and made it the equivalent of a global park that belonged to nobody - or everybody, if you prefer?

[-GoBengals-]

Eh, the Old Testament is filled with crazy bullshit, fairy tales, etc. The central tenet of Christianity is in the New Testament, which is quite simply, to love and forgive and to be forgiven.

 

 

unless your a fag.. god hates fags.. so does chik fil a... 

 

chik fil a = god?

 

#science