Guns in America

[T-Dub]

To be fair, I think there's plenty of shrieking to go around.  Again, the rifles used in SB last night are already illegal in California.  Do we make them double-extra illegal?

Way too much emotion taking the place of logic on either side of the argument, which is why nothing gets done. 

[Jamie_B]

 

To be fair, I think there's plenty of shrieking to go around.  Again, the rifles used in SB last night are already illegal in California.  Do we make them double-extra illegal?

Way too much emotion taking the place of logic on either side of the argument, which is why nothing gets done. 

Are they legal in Texas? Is it hard to buy in Texas and drive in to CA?

[T-Dub]

Are they legal in Texas? Is it hard to buy in Texas and drive in to CA?

That would also be illegal

[Jamie_B]

That would also be illegal

I am aware of that, but do they do border checks for weapons across states?

[T-Dub]

I am aware of that, but do they do border checks for weapons across states?

It's been awhile since I've driven into California, but they used to have border checkpoints on I-10. I never had any kind of firearm with me so I can't say beyond that.

I'm not trying to make a "some ppl break laws/laws are pointless" argument, but Cali's gun laws are kind of ridiculous and obviously ineffective.  Again, it's about access, whether that's an AR-15 or a blunderbuss.  I mean, apparently these fuckers had pipe bombs, too.  Those are very illegal everywhere, even in Texas.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-suspect-gun-purchase-20151202-story.html

So my question is: What law or laws would've prevented this?

[|Elflocko|]

Those checkpoints are for fruit flies, who don't tend to be heavily armed... 

[T-Dub]

Those checkpoints are for fruit flies, who don't tend to be heavily armed... 

Priorities

[MichaelWeston]

It's been awhile since I've driven into California, but they used to have border checkpoints on I-10. I never had any kind of firearm with me so I can't say beyond that.

I'm not trying to make a "some ppl break laws/laws are pointless" argument, but Cali's gun laws are kind of ridiculous and obviously ineffective.  Again, it's about access, whether that's an AR-15 or a blunderbuss.  I mean, apparently these fuckers had pipe bombs, too.  Those are very illegal everywhere, even in Texas.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-suspect-gun-purchase-20151202-story.html

So my question is: What law or laws would've prevented this?

Ineffective in a country where they are not universal. 

[T-Dub]

 

Ineffective in a country where they are not universal. 

OK, but that's beyond a gun control issue. 

I'm sensing a bit of cognitive dissonance here between making fun of the "Obummer's gonna take muh guns"/panic buying crowd while simultaneously proposing gun control solutions based on banning certain types (hopefully with more common sense than "no pistol grips or barrel shrouds")

Am I missing something? Because as far as I can tell that would mean either telling people they get to keep something if they buy it before a certain date, or that everyone's going to be disarmed. Either way it sounds like making fun of someone for thinking you want to do exactly what it is you want to do.. Which is not going to sway anyone's opinion & at least in my case makes someone otherwise sympathetic a whole lot less so.

[T-Dub]

On a lighter note,  Alex FlatEarth Jones is calling the NY Daily News piece "prayer shaming"

Paying attention to Infowars as anything other than pure comedy should be part of any proposed enhanced background check. 

[|Elflocko|]

On a lighter note,  Alex FlatEarth Jones is calling the NY Daily News piece "prayer shaming"

Paying attention to Infowars as anything other than pure comedy should be part of any proposed enhanced background check. 

Prayer: How to make yourself feel better about doing jack shit...

[T-Dub]

Prayer: How to make yourself feel better about doing jack shit...

 

Which, if you're doing it privately for your own sake, great.  Meditation is good for you & if calling on a higher power gets you through some shit, more power to you.

Politicians posting about it on the internet for the sake of their image, OTOH, or for example at midfield after a football game in front of a crowd & oblivious to the fact that not everyone believes the same shit you do, and more to the point are perfectly within their rights not to (!), well you probably deserve to get shit on.

[Homer_Rice]

An abbreviated course in American history:

"Deer Jeezus. I got me a gun and I see me sum injuns. They is not like us. Not even the mongrel 1/3 injuns. Help me aim reel good. Thank yu."

[T-Dub]

An abbreviated course in American history:

"Deer Jeezus. I got me a gun and I see me sum injuns. They is not like us. Not even the mongrel 1/3 injuns. Help me aim reel good. Thank yu."

Excellent point, as our Western expansion was largely made possible by affordable firearms, the rampant proliferation of which went unchecked until I'd say ~100 years ago (IIRC the first real Federal restrictions were put into place as a result of Prohibition-era mob violence). 

So I say again that the solution lies in restricting ownership in general, not what kind of stock you're allowed to buy.

[MichaelWeston]

 

Excellent point, as our Western expansion was largely made possible by affordable firearms, the rampant proliferation of which went unchecked until I'd say ~100 years ago (IIRC the first real Federal restrictions were put into place as a result of Prohibition-era mob violence). 

So I say again that the solution lies in restricting ownership in general, not what kind of stock you're allowed to buy.

Restricting the stock you are allowed to buy restricts what is available on the market. 

[MichaelWeston]

[Jamie_B]

I really wish both the people on the right and the left understood this stuff better so as to stop arguing with each other.

 Exodus 14:15 NLT -
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Why are you crying out to me? Tell the people to get moving!"

 

Christians are called to do more than just pray, they are called to act.

[T-Dub]

Restricting the stock you are allowed to buy restricts what is available on the market. 

It restricts what stocks are available. You honestly think thumbhole stocks are the issue? I mean, a magazine limit at least makes some kind of sense but how does banning barrel shrouds help anything? Grip types?

[Jamie_B]

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2014/september/fbi-releases-study-on-active-shooter-incidents/pdfs/a-study-of-active-shooter-incidents-in-the-u.s.-between-2000-and-2013

 

Take note here, in just 3.1% of these incidents were armed citizens who were not law enforcement officers exchanged gunfire with the shooters, and of those 5 total incidents only 3 were killed (1 wounded, and 1 committed suicide)

So these fantasies about "good guy with a gun"...do not bear out with the facts.

Resolutions
The majority of the 160 incidents (90 [56.3%]) ended on the shooter’s initiative—
sometimes when the shooter committed suicide or stopped shooting, and other times when
the shooter fled the scene.
There were at least 25 incidents where the shooter fled the scene before police arrived. In 4
additional incidents, at least 5 shooters fled the scene and were still at large at the time the
study results were released.
In other incidents, it was a combination of actions by citizens and/or law enforcement that
ended the shootings. In at least 65 (40.6%) of the 160 incidents, citizen engagement or the
shooter committing suicide ended the shooting at the scene before law enforcement arrived.
Of those:
■■ In 37 incidents (23.1%), the shooter committed suicide at the scene before police
arrived.
■■ In 21 incidents (13.1%), the situation ended after unarmed citizens safely and successfully
restrained the shooter. In 2 of those incidents,24 3 off-duty law enforcement
officers were present and assisted.
■■ Of note, 11 of the incidents involved unarmed principals, teachers, other school
staff and students who confronted shooters to end the threat (9 of those shooters
were students).
■■ In 5 incidents (3.1%), the shooting ended after armed individuals who were not law
enforcement personnel exchanged gunfire with the shooters. In these incidents, 3 shooters
were killed, 1 was wounded, and 1 committed suicide.
■■ The individuals involved in these shootings included a citizen with a valid firearms
permit and armed security guards at a church, an airline counter, a federally
managed museum, and a school board meeting.25
■■ In 2 incidents (1.3%), 2 armed, off-duty police officers engaged the shooters, resulting
in the death of the shooters. In 1 of those incidents, the off-duty officer assisted a
responding officer to end the threat.26
Even when law enforcement arrived quickly, many times the shooter still chose to end his
life. In 17 (10.6%) of the 160 incidents, the shooter committed suicide at the scene after law
enforcement arrived but before officers could act.
In 45 (28.1%) of the 160 incidents, law enforcement and the shooter exchanged gunfire. Of
those 45 incidents, the shooter was killed at the scene in 21, killed at another location in 4,
wounded in 9, committed suicide in 9, and surrendered in 2

[|kennethmw|]

Are they legal in Texas? Is it hard to buy in Texas and drive in to CA?

or Nevada, Arizona etc.  That's why we need a FEDERAL STANDARD, not a mismatch of different laws.  It's not much different than the DUI standard.

[T-Dub]

or Nevada, Arizona etc.  That's why we need a FEDERAL STANDARD, not a mismatch of different laws.  It's not much different than the DUI standard.

 

I agree, but CA's "assault rifle" ban is a mess.  We had that on a federal level and it was allowed to expire because it was such bad legislation. 

It's also worth noting that a tiny, tiny fraction of shootings are committed with this type of rifle.  The Virginia Tech shooting is still the deadliest single-shooter attack in the US & all he had were 9mm & .22 pistols.  The assault rifle hysteria is all about fear-mongering, political posturing, and driving sales.  

There's also the unfortunate fact that a lot of the people who have already stockpiled them are the exact last sort you'd want to have armed at all.  I don't want to create a situation where they're the ONLY ones who have them, and I've seen how pathetically spineless we are in dealing with domestic terrorist groups.  We're not going to disarm them so why punish the people who are trying to purchase them legally instead of out of the back of a van?

It's kind of ridiculous to think that the likely death penalty for a mass murder isn't enough to stop someone, but the crime of making an illegal firearms purchase will.  I hear a lot of "we have to do something!"  No, we have to do something effective.  Passing pointless BS laws just for the warm fuzzies is not a good idea.

[|Elflocko|]

You are correct that simple legislation will never fix our problem with guns. The framers of our constitution put into place the mechanism to add, modify, and yes, repeal amendments, including the 2nd. No amendment was given special protection or dispensation. The American people have, within their grasp, the power to change this; I just know that they won't, as the gun infatuation is so deeply ingrained in our culture it is practically part of our DNA. 

[T-Dub]

You are correct that simple legislation will never fix our problem with guns. The framers of our constitution put into place the mechanism to add, modify, and yes, repeal amendments, including the 2nd. No amendment was given special protection or dispensation. The American people have, within their grasp, the power to change this; I just know that they won't, as the gun infatuation is so deeply ingrained in our culture it is practically part of our DNA. 

 

 

I agree as far as the constitutional argument goes. I wish people were half as concerned with attacks on all the other amendments.  

OTOH, I do think legislation can help, and I think it can happen.  That's going to require convincing gun owners, though, and painting all of us as psycho inbred hicks is not winning anybody over.  Like I said, it makes it seem like this is more about political posturing from our lawmakers than any real attempt at a solution. 

I'd be fine with rolling ownership rights into my hunting license & insuring myself like I do for my car, just as one example. At this point, though, all the memes and rhetoric have so alienated people, demonizing anyone that owns a gun of any kind.. All it does is antagonize the people that need to be convinced. That seems so obvious to me that I get the impression it's more about finding a scapegoat to make everyone feel better.

So yeah, I think you're right in that the climate right now won't allow anything to get done, but I no longer think you can blame that on one side of the argument.

[T-Dub]

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2014/september/fbi-releases-study-on-active-shooter-incidents/pdfs/a-study-of-active-shooter-incidents-in-the-u.s.-between-2000-and-2013

 

Take note here, in just 3.1% of these incidents were armed citizens who were not law enforcement officers exchanged gunfire with the shooters, and of those 5 total incidents only 3 were killed (1 wounded, and 1 committed suicide)

So these fantasies about "good guy with a gun"...do not bear out with the facts.

 

The example I keep using is the attempted Giffords assassination in AZ.  Two armed civilians nearly shot each other, & I just read a story from a SWAT officer that responded to that mall shooting in Utah (IIRC) who almost killed a civilian who had gone in with his handgun to look for his wife.  

I'm not for concealed or open carry in public spaces.  I mean, I can't trust someone to use their damn turn signals & I'm supposed to be alright with everyone walking around armed?  We get these assholes trying to intimidate people at a mosque with their tacticool get-ups and AR's..  I think there is a middle ground if people want to find it. It doesn't seem like very many do, though.

[|Elflocko|]

 

The example I keep using is the attempted Giffords assassination in AZ.  Two armed civilians nearly shot each other, & I just read a story from a SWAT officer that responded to that mall shooting in Utah (IIRC) who almost killed a civilian who had gone in with his handgun to look for his wife.  

When those two teabagging lunatics murdered 2 Metro officers here in Las Vegas then ran into a Sams Club, a local "good guy with a gun" tried to be a hero and got himself killed. Just a couple of weeks ago, a "good guy with a gun" tried to foil a robbery, got himself severely wounded. People need to realize that "The Expendables" wasn't a documentary...