Report: Bengals turned down trade with Cards

[Orange 'n Black]

Seems to me that the Bengals placed enough value on both Cedric and Fisher that they wouldn't have traded back either way. That's not "pre determining," that's sticking with the valuations that you do months of scouting to create. If we know anything about the info black hole that is the Bengals, it's that they stand by their process and don't lock themselves into a predetermined position. That's how you end up with 2 high value picks at the same position in one draft, or Jeremy Hill with Gio Bernard and Lawfirm still on the roster, or Tyler Eifert, or AJ Green when you have a flaming pile of dog poop at the QB position. 

[scharm]

 

If you knew how the draft worked you wouldn't spend so much time writing about how the Cards took a tackle.

 

As if the Cards selecting a OT means anything after their trade proposal had been rejected and the player they coveted had been selected by the Stealers.

 

That's how the draft works.

 

Well, again that's you being bias.   As if the Bengals have the luxury of taking them at their word.  

 

AZ did take a tackle and that's another big hole in your theory that you can't reconcile. 

 

 

If anyone is making an argument for all tackles being the same it's the Bengals, who said they considered making Fisher the pick if Ogbeuhi wasn't availalble.

 

Eh, that's just you dancing to try to further your support of a bad point.   The Bengals had a first round grade on the Fish.   How you build the bridge that means they graded him as high as Ced is your problem? 

[HairOnFire]

 If we know anything about the info black hole that is the Bengals, it's that they stand by their process and don't lock themselves into a predetermined position.

 

They knew what position they were drafting at #21 a week prior to the draft.

 

The only thing that hadn't been determined was which OT they'd take. 

 

In fact, the very fact the Bengals were willing to overdraft Fisher at #21 speaks to how much they stacked their board with an eye always cast towards position played.

 

And by predetermining what they were going to do the Bengals also predetermined what they wouldn't do, including trading back three spots in the 1st round. 

 

Plan A meant saying no to the type of trade back for picks offer the Bengals are always quick to complain never comes.

[HairOnFire]

AZ did take a tackle and that's another big hole in your theory that you can't reconcile.

 

I've got nothing to reconcile.

 

All sources claim the trade proposal was based upon the Cards selecting Bud Dupree.

 

You're the only one claiming their target was Ogbuehi.

 

 

 

 

  The Bengals had a first round grade on the Fish.   How you build the bridge that means they graded him as high as Ced is your problem? 

 

I don't have to build a bridge.

 

Bengals could have drafted Ogbuehi at #24.

 

Bengals claim that Fisher was worthy of selection at #21 not grounded in reality.

[scharm]

 

All sources claim the trade proposal was based upon the Cards selecting Bud Dupree.

 

 

I don't need a source.   They selected a tackle.     Bengals don't have a the luxury of believing "all sources", lol.  

 

 

You're the only one claiming their target was Ogbuehi.

 

I did not claim this.    They took the same position as Ced O over edge rushers.   That is FACT.   

 

 

I don't have to build a bridge

 

Eh,  then let your point go on sucking then.  Your choice.

 

 

End of the day, Bengals targeted Ced.  They THINK he is the top tackle in this class.  I don't see anything that says they rated DJ/Fish as the same.   The team proposing the trade took the same position group a few picks later.

 

All this destroys your point that mostly based in the FACT you never wanted a OT in the first place with the first pick.    I would tell you to get over it but I don't want you to. You'll obsess over this for years and at the end of the day it will still boil down to Arizona took a tackle and the Bengals thought Ced was super awesome.

[Khatmandude]

Team Weed members shall not create their own realities...it's rule 6 on the charter.  You've done so once again here with your conclusion you've reached, by making many (x 7) assumptions.  

 

Here's what we know.  Bengals had Rd 1 grades on both Ogbuehi and Fisher.  They were in love with CO, admittedly.  They were offered 2 picks to move down a few spots, enough spots to cause them enough concern that Cedric wouldn't be around.  They weren't worried about teams drafting in front of them, but that same certainty wasn't there about the teams below them.  Sure, the likelihood wasn't great that someone would take him, there was still enough of one that they stayed at 21.  They REALLY like Cedric, so it's understandable that the 2 mid to lower round picks wouldn't be enough enticement to risk losing out on him.   Maybe there's some disinfo coming from AZ because they're pissed Bengals turned them down in THEIR bid to draft Cedric.  So they run with the Bud Dupree story and just so happens that the Bengals' biggest rivals, the Stealers end up drafting Dupree.  Makes for a great story all around and one that's likely to get a few obsessive types all riled up.  

 

Rd 2 they had Fisher still available, and rated much higher than 53 and took him as their BPA philosophy dictated.  Maybe they would have taken the DT from OU if he was available, but he went a pick earlier.  Contradicting a 'plan in place' as you claim....they just had him rated highest.  Of course they discussed the possibility of what they would do had this situation come up, which is a great thing if you ask me as this shows they tried to cover all bases, all possibilities.  This is a good thing, not a predetermination of what they were going to do.  It was one of many (x 7) scenarios they discussed I would imagine.  Had he been available and they drafted the DT, Hayes probably would have been saying "we discussed this situation and I'm glad we were able to take advantage and get a good player, one that we had rated much higher".   There was no plan to draft 2 OTs in place, there was no predetermined path they were gong to follow at all cost, none of that. 

 

We/You have some bits and pieces of information, that's it.  Jumping (leaping in this case) to conclusions with very incomplete info probably isn't going to give you the most accurate picture.  

[alleycat]

Let's face it. This whole thing comes down to the team not having enough balls.

 

Only fitting that Paul Alexander was at the middle of the situation.

[HairOnFire]

I don't need a source.  

 

Sure you do.

 

All sources but you claim the Cards trade target was Dupree.

 

You say different, but you have no source to back your claim. 

 

Just a bunch of unfounded bullshit.

 

 

 

  They took the same position as Ced O over edge rushers.   That is FACT. 

 

Fact: The Cards selected an OT after the Bengals spoiled their attempt to move up for Dupree.

 

Fact: The trade offer isn't speculation. It was confirmed and Dupree was the target.

 

Fact: Pointing out who the Cards selected after Dupree was drafted by Pittsburgh has no relevance on the Bengals decision to pass on the trade offer.

 

Fact: Cards actions at #24 entirelly dictated by Bengals actions at #21.

[Orange 'n Black]

Fact: The Bengals pick whoever is highest on their board when their pick comes up (unless they have a trade offer with more value than what's on the table)... which happened to be an OT both times. 

 

Totally Ridiculous Speculation That's Not Part Of Reality: The Bengals would have still picked an OT even if Jesus himself was available at #21 because it was predetermined

[HairOnFire]

Let's face it. This whole thing comes down to the team not having enough balls.

 

Yeah, that and being too rigid to embrace opportunities that rarely happen.

 

Funnier still, LB Kwon Alexander and WR Kenny Bell are just two of the nearly endless possibilities the Bengals could have embraced had they traded for the 4th and 5th rounders. 

 

Just because Alexander and Bell were my choices doesn't mean the Bengals couldn't have scratched other itches.

 

For just one example, the Bengals very easily could have drafted a Mettenberger or a McCooter, including Brett Hundley at #123.

 

Or they could have taken a flyyer on La'el Collins with pick #159.

[HairOnFire]

Fact: The Bengals pick whoever is highest on their board when their pick comes up (unless they have a trade offer with more value than what's on the table)... which happened to be an OT both times. 

 

Fact: Bengals use BPA as a hammer to defend their decision to reject the trade but freely admit the next best player on their board after Ogbuehi was a a player who was still available at #53.

 

Fact: If a player drafted 53rd overall is the only other name you're considering at #21 Bengals BPA excuse doesn't pass the smell test.

[SnickyCat]

Fact: The Bengals pick whoever is highest on their board when their pick comes up (unless they have a trade offer with more value than what's on the table)... which happened to be an OT both times. 
 
Totally Ridiculous Speculation That's Not Part Of Reality: The Bengals would have still picked an OT even if Jesus himself was available at #21 because it was predetermined

Jesus is nowhere near big enough to play OT. I might try him out at WR though.

[bengaled]

 

Fact: Bengals use BPA as a hammer to defend their decision to reject the trade but freely admit the next best player on their board after Ogbuehi was a a player who was still available at #53.

 

Fact: If a player drafted 53rd overall is the only other name you're considering at #21 Bengals BPA excuse doesn't pass the smell test.

 

 

after all the years i've followed this team, i recognize there will be times when they use deception to explain their motives. anyone that doesn't recognize this, is being hoodwinked. there are situations and agendas that they don't think they have the need to share with the general public, or that it would only serve the purpose to create more controversy if they did explain their reasoning. when faced with these scenarios they take the easiest way out, and i'll admit, i'd probably do the same thing if it was my job in the organization.

 

point being....don't place too much emphasis on what they have to say 100% of the time. some of it's total bullshit.

[SnickyCat]

 
Fact: Bengals use BPA as a hammer to defend their decision to reject the trade but freely admit the next best player on their board after Ogbuehi was a a player who was still available at #53.
 
Fact: If a player drafted 53rd overall is the only other name you're considering at #21 Bengals BPA excuse doesn't pass the smell test.

I can't argue with this because they are on record saying if Ogbuehi was gone at #21 they would have selected Fisher there. Which if they say they were staying strict on their BPA board Fisher was next on the list after Ogbuehi. Seems pretty simple to understand.
But.......one of the spin doctors will be along soon enough to explain to you why what is so obvious is actually not.

[HairOnFire]

point being....don't place too much emphasis on what they have to say 100% of the time. some of it's total bullshit.

 

I've already called out a few things that don't pass the smell test.

 

For example, Bengals claim that Fisher could be considered BPA at #21 is 100% bullshit and unsupportable unless the actual draft results are ignored. 

 

However, the Bengals willingness to overdraft a predetermined position regardless of BPA is both plausible and supported by claims Bengals would draft Fisher at #21. 

 

 

I can't argue with this because they are on record saying if Ogbuehi was gone at #21 they would have selected Fisher there.

 

Yup.

[Arkansas Bengal]

What the hell would the Bengals have done with 2 more draft picks?  They would have likely either been cut or at best added to the practice squad.

[scharm]

 

 

after all the years i've followed this team, i recognize there will be times when they use deception to explain their motives. anyone that doesn't recognize this, is being hoodwinked. there are situations and agendas that they don't think they have the need to share with the general public, or that it would only serve the purpose to create more controversy if they did explain their reasoning. when faced with these scenarios they take the easiest way out, and i'll admit, i'd probably do the same thing if it was my job in the organization.

 

point being....don't place too much emphasis on what they have to say 100% of the time. some of it's total bullshit.

 

Eh,  people pick and choose I guess.

 

Rumors that AZ wanted Dupree apparently can't be questioned.   However, the Bengals interest in Phillips is to be ignored because it refutes the conspiracy theory, lol.

 

 

Bengals target was on the board.  They think he is top 5.  Arizona took a tackle.

 

Those are facts.   Destroys all theories presented above.    Hair can't reconcile any of this that's why he takes liberties with select post-draft quotes. 

[ThurmanMunster]

 

 

You also realize that AJ, Mavin, and Mo are all UFA's this year right?

 

AJ will be franchised so he won't be. They are already discussing extensions with the other two. I don't really think a #2 WR and a backup WR are too concerning that you have to draft a guy in advance. Many teams draft rookies now because they are way more prepared for the NFL to play day 1 than 10 years ago. You don't have to draft a guy to sit/slowly bring in for 1-2 seasons.

[ThurmanMunster]

IIRC, Marvin suggested that Fisher was taken because Phillips was picked ahead of us by Miami, which indicates to me that Fisher was "Plan B".

 

agreed

[ThurmanMunster]

What the hell would the Bengals have done with 2 more draft picks?  They would have likely either been cut or at best added to the practice squad.

Exactly. Trading down was not worth losing Ced

[SnickyCat]

 
Eh,  people pick and choose I guess.
 
Rumors that AZ wanted Dupree apparently can't be questioned.   However, the Bengals interest in Phillips is to be ignored because it refutes the conspiracy theory, lol.
 
 
Bengals target was on the board.  They think he is top 5.  Arizona took a tackle.
 
Those are facts.   Destroys all theories presented above.    Hair can't reconcile any of this that's why he takes liberties with select post-draft quotes. 

I'm not sure why you keep arguing this because it was confirmed that Dupree was in fact their target in the trade up offer days ago.

From an article (link below) in the AZCentral-Arizona Republic written by Kent Somers, a guy who has covered the Cardinals for 21 years and is the Cardinals NFL Insider for their Local 12 News......This guy lives, breathes, eats & shits Cards all year long.

"The Cardinals attempted to trade up with the Bengals in the first round to take Kentucky outside linebacker Bud Dupree. It was first reported by Fox Sports 910's Mike Jurecki and confirmed by an NFL source.
The Cardinals probably thought they could get a deal done, given that the Bengals likely could have taken Ogbuehi at 24 and kept Dupree from going to the Steelers, a division rival.
The Broncos traded up to 23rd to take Missouri defensive end Shane Ray. The Broncos apparently thought they needed to get ahead of the Cardinals, who also liked Ray.
But once Dupree was gone, the Cardinals had settled on taking offensive tackle D.J. Humphries, not Ray."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nfl/cardinals/2015/05/01/arizona-cardinals-nfl-draft/26740295/

[scharm]

I'm not sure why you keep arguing this because it was confirmed that Dupree was in fact their target in the trade up offer days ago.

From an article (link below) in the AZCentral-Arizona Republic written by Kent Somers, a guy who has covered the Cardinals for 21 years and is the Cardinals NFL Insider for their Local 12 News......This guy lives, breathes, eats & shits Cards all year long.

"The Cardinals attempted to trade up with the Bengals in the first round to take Kentucky outside linebacker Bud Dupree. It was first reported by Fox Sports 910's Mike Jurecki and confirmed by an NFL source.
The Cardinals probably thought they could get a deal done, given that the Bengals likely could have taken Ogbuehi at 24 and kept Dupree from going to the Stealers, a division rival.
The Broncos traded up to 23rd to take Missouri defensive end Shane Ray. The Broncos apparently thought they needed to get ahead of the Cardinals, who also liked Ray.
But once Dupree was gone, the Cardinals had settled on taking offensive tackle D.J. Humphries, not Ray."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nfl/cardinals/2015/05/01/arizona-cardinals-nfl-draft/26740295/

 

I don't think I've ever argued AZ didn't have an interest in Dupree.   The fact is they took a tackle. 

 

If you want to travel down the same path more power to you.

 

End of the day, the Bengals target was there at 21, they believe he was top 5 talent.  The team they turned down the trade took a tackle and the Bengals still had 5 pick in the next 3 rounds.

 

 

People pick and choose what they want to believe there is equally credible information that the Bengals had interest in a DT at 53 prior to his selection.  That also destroys a weak theory.

 

All of this because some poster couldn't put 1+1 together and figure tackle would be a target pre-draft.  

[Jamie_B]

 

AJ will be franchised so he won't be. They are already discussing extensions with the other two. I don't really think a #2 WR and a backup WR are too concerning that you have to draft a guy in advance. Many teams draft rookies now because they are way more prepared for the NFL to play day 1 than 10 years ago. You don't have to draft a guy to sit/slowly bring in for 1-2 seasons.

 

 

I've seen nothing saying they are in discussions with either Jones or Sanu. ... And dont give me that "I have a source" nonsense, your "source" said AJ would play the playoff game.

[HairOnFire]

I'm not sure why you keep arguing this because it was confirmed that Dupree was in fact their target in the trade up offer days ago.

 

Scharm likes to take liberties...(cough)...so he completely made up the bullshit about the Cards wanting to take Ogbuehi and how the Bengals couldn't trust them.

 

No source at all. Completely made up.

 

At least the Jay Cutler fantasy was based upon somebody elses rumor.

 

Scharm's latest trade fantasy seems to be crafted from nothing.

 

It's like watching someone try to shovel smoke up a flight of stairs.

 

Scharm lives in Fantasyland.

 

 

 

 

 

The Broncos traded up to 23rd to take Missouri defensive end Shane Ray. The Broncos apparently thought they needed to get ahead of the Cardinals, who also liked Ray.

 

And that eliminates the last remaining team from the list of who might have wanted Ogbuehi enough to draft him prior to #24.

 

Bengals could have had Ogbuehi at #24.

 

Bengals could have picked up two draft picks and still got their man.

 

Oh, and by drafting 3 slots later they would have paid less money for already scratch & dented Ogbuehi.

 

And passing on a cost free chance to keep Dupree from the Stealers?

 

A priceless opportunity...yet without worth to the Bengals.

 

I bet the Cards were stunned when the Bengals said no.

[HairOnFire]

 

I don't think I've ever argued AZ didn't have an interest in Dupree.   The fact is they took a tackle. 

 

Well, it's irrelevant, and I'm guessing the only reason you keep mentioning it is so there's at least one fact included in one of your posts.

 

 

 

End of the day, the Bengals target was there at 21, they believe he was top 5 talent.

 

Ogbuehi being top#5 talent is also irrelevant.

 

Bengals could have drafted him at #24 just as easily as #21.

 

 

 

People pick and choose what they want to believe there is equally credible information that the Bengals had interest in a DT at 53 prior to his selection.  That also destroys a weak theory.

 

Destroys it?

 

The same source that named Phillips as a prospect of interest at #53 also said the Bengals almost certainly would have taken Fisher regardless.

 

Miami taking Phillips one pick earlier simply ended any remaining debate.

 

Further, Bengals admit there was plenty of warroom talk about "going for two" long before the Bengals were on the clock at #53.

 

And why not?

 

Plan A had been approved more than a week prior.