|Bunghole| Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='TrustNMarvin' post='683413' date='Jul 31 2008, 10:21 PM']Dunn is good. PERIOD. I shutter to think what our offense would be without him.[/quote] I shutter my windows when he bats, too. He's either going to break my window if I don't have the shutters closed, or he's going to get a walk, which keeps my shuttered windows safe. Either way, I'm good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalsOwn Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 It's pretty obvious most readers of this site are more knowledgeable when it comes to Football... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalBacker Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='CJandRudiJ' post='683417' date='Jul 31 2008, 11:33 PM']Also Dunn is #1 in homers, #9 in RBIS, and #14 in the NL in On base percentage. Pretty good if you ask me. Ive said it once and Ill say it again, you can afford to have one guy in your lineup that bats for a low average and strike out a lot but hit a lot of homers and gets rbis like Dunn, the problem is if there are 2 of those guys in your lineup like we had with Griffey. Now that Griffey is gone we can afford to have Dunn in our lineup. Potential 2009 lineup without any upgrades at positions... 1. Hairston CF 2. Kepp SS 3. Bruce RF 4. Phillips 2B 5. Votto 1B 6. Dunn LF 7. EE 3B 8. Catcher Thats a decent lineup, with the potential to be a very good lineup if Bruce and Votto improve on their rookie years and Hairston and Kepp can stay healthy and hit. Hopefully we can find an upgrade at catcher and maybe a CF in case hairston is hurt, but either way Dunn is probably the best 6 hitter in the game.[/quote] I think Dunn haters are similar to Rudi haters. I mean the people who hated Rudi while he was setting franchise records, not last year's version of Rudi. Too much focus on what he can't do and not enough credit for what he can do. I'd try to re-sign him if I was running the Reds. Especially since we finally dumped Griffey. I think I'd go more like this: 1. Hairston---R 2. Bruce---L 3. Kepp---R 4. Dunn---L 5. Phillips---R 6. Votto---L 7. Encarnacion---R 8. Catcher---? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='CJandRudiJ' post='683417' date='Jul 31 2008, 10:33 PM']Also Dunn is #1 in homers, #9 in RBIS, and #14 in the NL in On base percentage. Pretty good if you ask me. Ive said it once and Ill say it again, you can afford to have one guy in your lineup that bats for a low average and strike out a lot but hit a lot of homers and gets rbis like Dunn, the problem is if there are 2 of those guys in your lineup like we had with Griffey. Now that Griffey is gone we can afford to have Dunn in our lineup. Potential 2009 lineup without any upgrades at positions... 1. Hairston CF 2. Kepp SS 3. Bruce RF 4. Phillips 2B 5. Votto 1B 6. Dunn LF 7. EE 3B 8. Catcher Thats a decent lineup, with the potential to be a very good lineup if Bruce and Votto improve on their rookie years and Hairston and Kepp can stay healthy and hit. Hopefully we can find an upgrade at catcher and maybe a CF in case hairston is hurt, but either way Dunn is probably the best 6 hitter in the game.[/quote] you call Dunn pretty good and then have him bat 6th? wtf. We cant afford Dunn in our lineup if he is supposed to bat 6th lol. without upgrades this should be the lineup: 1. Hairston CF 2. Kepp SS 3. Phillips 2B 4. Dunn LF 5. EE 3B 6. Votto 1B 7. Bruce RF 8. Catcher Bruce doesnt move up in the lineup from 7 until he gets some more experience and consistency. I think Phillips needs to move out of the 4 hole. IMO he is more of a 2 or 5 hitter, but Hairston-Kepp is a great 1-2 and EE is more of a 5 hitter than a 3 hitter at this point in his career too and i cant justify going 3-4-5 with Dunn-EE-Phillips [b]THIS TEAM NEEDS SOMEONE THEY CAN BAT 3rd and RELY ON.[/b] We havent had a good 3 hole hitter in YEARS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='683437' date='Aug 1 2008, 03:47 AM']you call Dunn pretty good and then have him bat 6th? wtf. We cant afford Dunn in our lineup if he is supposed to bat 6th lol. without upgrades this should be the lineup: 1. Hairston CF 2. Kepp SS 3. Phillips 2B 4. Dunn LF 5. EE 3B 6. Votto 1B 7. Bruce RF 8. Catcher Bruce doesnt move up in the lineup from 7 until he gets some more experience and consistency. I think Phillips needs to move out of the 4 hole. IMO he is more of a 2 or 5 hitter, but Hairston-Kepp is a great 1-2 and EE is more of a 5 hitter than a 3 hitter at this point in his career too and i cant justify going 3-4-5 with Dunn-EE-Phillips [b]THIS TEAM NEEDS SOMEONE THEY CAN BAT 3rd and RELY ON.[/b] We havent had a good 3 hole hitter in YEARS.[/quote] Thats fine with me too...but I was looking more towards next year, hoping that Bruce and Votto are improving over the offseason and start to hit for higher averages and stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 bruce isnt ever going to be a 3 hole hitter imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 he has power, speed, and is a great hitter... not sure why he isn't capable of being a 3 hitter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='bengalrick' post='683571' date='Aug 1 2008, 01:46 PM']he has power, speed, and is a great hitter... not sure why he isn't capable of being a 3 hitter...[/quote] he doesnt have 3 hole power and he strikes out too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Scales Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='CJandRudiJ' post='683414' date='Jul 31 2008, 10:26 PM']While Im still not sure where I stand on Dunn, your comment is absolutely retarded. Thats like saying lets trade Carson palmer because we havent won a superbowl. Just cause we havent won anything since weve had Dunn doesnt mean that hes been preventing us from winning.[/quote] oh yeah well your Palmer comparison was retarded. I agree with what the tornonto G.M said about ol Dunner. I want speed, contact, and defense. Last time I checked Dunn is slow, strikes out a lot, and plays a below average defense. Ideally I'd want speed, contact, power, Range, Instincts, and the arm of a god, but we traded him away for what looks to be an ace. We haven't won for a myriad of reasons, he's got some value, soooo get what you can to try and win. If he walks thurman says we get extra picks, if he's traded we could get something more solid. now I don't know of course, but I'm kinda iffey on whether or not Dunn is in the current General managers plans...I think they are trying to get rid of him. and If so I agree with the move. This tells me they feel like the team would be better served without him here. Which I agree with...sooooo when we remove all the song and dance and get with it on down to that bottom line. Dunners holding them back. Palmer doesn't, well infact he improves the team considerably. Retarded... Mentally challenged... Whatever you call it. Thats my opinion. My Line Up. Hairston/Hopper Bruce Votto Phillips Kepp Edwin A large midget Johnny Bench Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='683610' date='Aug 1 2008, 04:11 PM']he doesnt have 3 hole power and he strikes out too much.[/quote] he's exactly what I'd want as a 3 hitter... i disagree, as usual... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengal Chris Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 Its his fault we were swept by the worst team in the nation, which makes us the worst team in the nation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='bengalrick' post='683895' date='Aug 3 2008, 09:34 AM']he's exactly what I'd want as a 3 hitter... i disagree, as usual...[/quote] so u want a # 3 hitter who K's a lot? wish u ran the team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 I think in a year or two Jay will be the ideal #3 hitter. He has some pop in his bat, i'd say around 30-40 home runs a year and can only improve his pitch selection over time. He could be a really good player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='684502' date='Aug 5 2008, 12:34 PM']so u want a # 3 hitter who K's a lot? wish u ran the team [/quote] 1. He has power 2. He is young and his SO's are not insanely out of whack... about 1 out of every 4 at bats whereas Brandon was around 1 out of 5 in his first full year at Cleveland... 3. He has speed and can run the base paths... bad day to talk shit about Bruce, btw... he is tearing the cover off the ball right now Is he the prototypical 3 hitter? Not really, but he has the potential to be for sure... he is closer than anyone on this team, outside of Phillips, but Phillips is the best cleanup hitter we have... In an ideal world, Phillips is the 3 hitter, Bruce the 5, and we got a Pujols as our cleanup hitter... But with this lineup, i think that Bruce is the 3, and Phillips the 4... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 [quote name='bengalrick' post='684907' date='Aug 6 2008, 02:14 PM']1. He has power 2. He is young and his SO's are not insanely out of whack... about 1 out of every 4 at bats whereas Brandon was around 1 out of 5 in his first full year at Cleveland... 3. He has speed and can run the base paths... bad day to talk shit about Bruce, btw... he is tearing the cover off the ball right now Is he the prototypical 3 hitter? Not really, but he has the potential to be for sure... he is closer than anyone on this team, outside of Phillips, but Phillips is the best cleanup hitter we have... In an ideal world, Phillips is the 3 hitter, Bruce the 5, and we got a Pujols as our cleanup hitter... But with this lineup, i think that Bruce is the 3, and Phillips the 4...[/quote] im not talking shit as bruce is one of my favorite players in the game, but i dont see him as a 3 hitter for a team that wants to win a WS. honestly i view phillips and bruce as more of 2 and 5 hitters than 3 and 4. i think phillips in the 4 hurts him because i think he tries to be more of a HR hitter in that role rather than spreading it around and getting the doubles and singles. thats why IMO this team NEEDS a middle of the lineup hitter. thats why a couple years ago i wanted us to do whatever it took to go after carlos lee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 I guess it is a matter of preference, but I think that the lineup should be broken up as followed: 1. Leadoff needs to be able to bunt for a hit, needs to see alot of pitches, steal whenever they need it, contact hitter: Jerry Hairston, maybe Hopper, definately not freel. 2. Mainly needs to be a contact hitter... Keppenger is the ideal person in this spot imo.... He should have some speed, but that isn't necessary... Mainly needs to be very reliable for a hit and run situation and needs to be able to sacrafice bunt or hit the ball the the right side, etc. 3. Power and speed... Needs to be a run producer and also needs to not hold up the base paths b/c of how slow they are... I LOVE Phillips in this role in the long term. I don't like him in the 2 spot because he is not a contact hitter, and even though I don't want him swinging for the fences every time, no doubt he has mass power. Jay Bruce is who I want (in this lineup) here... I would rather put him in the 5 spot and move dunn to 6, but we would need a prototypical cleanup man before I would really want to do that. 4. Power and average... In other words, just b/c Dunn has power, doesn't mean he's a cleanup hitter... He would leave too many people at 3rd base with less than two outs... 5. Power... Dunn works perfectly here... Who really cares about his BB totals b/c it isn't like he can steal much on his own, so a walk is only setting up for a double play... The 5 hitter needs to simply drive in runs... Pat Burrell is a great example of what I want, but Dunn will work I guess. 6. Anything you get from this spot is a plus: EE 7. Ditto from 6: Votto... EE and votto could be swapped if need be... Not too rigid on that. 8. Catcher That is my lineup... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 considering EE has had 1 bad month and the rest of his months were pretty solid id say he can hit up higher than you have him. honestly if he could stay consistent id like EE in the 4 or 5 hole. I think Votto can become a # 3 hitter in time (just something i see in him). he doesnt have the ideal power but for some reason i think he would work well. Im not concerned with the speed of a player in the 3 hole. Speed is nice, but not a necessity especially if u look around the league. Bruce has 17 walks compared to 62 K's and Votto has like 37 walks to 72 K's and has played more this year. Bruce had a problem with K's in the minors too. I dont see it going away enough. I want my 3 hole hitter to either make contact or get on base most of the time. Griffey and Dunn k'd way too often in a key situation. Thats why i dont like Phillips in the 4 hole, but he wont K 150 times at least. assuming we dont go out and get a badass middle of the lineup hitter i would want... 1) New player either SS or CF (can dickerson play up here?) 2) Keppinger (3B) 3) Votto (LF) - for some reason i think he could just destroy here when i see him play. i feel he can be a good player at this spot. he is only hitting 265 with RISP right now, but he doesnt have any protection behind him so he doesnt really see shit for pitches. He hits lefties better than righties by a couple points so we wouldnt have to worry about that. 4) Phillips (2B) due to the lack of a better option 5) Bruce (RF) 6) EE (1B) 7) Hannigan © 8) New player either SS or CF or Gonzo EE's glove hasnt been the problem at 3B it has been his arm. His glove is actually real good and he has pretty good range. He could do a heck of a job at 1B and i know some of the coaches agree with that and i think thats where he is going this winter and spring is 1B. The former assistant GM that works for 700wlw now says he could see EE being a very good 1B. EE has the ability to hit REALLY well if he can put it all together. I think if he succeeded defensively more then it would improve his consistency all around. I think he takes the errors and criticism too serious and lets it get to him. He has shown that he can be clutch as hell and he has shown he has 30+ HR power. He is a young player and worth putting a lot of time into considering we have guys like Votto/Bruce/Phillips as well. If EE could be consistent then I would see him as the perfect 4 hole hitter then Phillips or Bruce can move to the 2 hole and the other stay in the 5 and Kepp could become the 6 hole hitter and if u look at his stats he hits REALLY well in the 6 hole (324 avg and only 260 in # 2 hole). He also hits well with RISP so being in the 6 hole he would get more opps than in the 2 hole and Phillips or Bruce gets more speed at the top. There are a lot of options. I think the thing is we dont have a true bat to rely on in the lineup. We need a guy like a Manny Ramirez so one of our guys really needs to step up or we need to make a move. we have a lot of solid pieces to put around a superstar but we dont have the superstar. i think bruce can be damn good but i dont think he is a superstar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='684976' date='Aug 6 2008, 07:14 PM']considering EE has had 1 bad month and the rest of his months were pretty solid id say he can hit up higher than you have him. honestly if he could stay consistent id like EE in the 4 or 5 hole. I think Votto can become a # 3 hitter in time (just something i see in him). he doesnt have the ideal power but for some reason i think he would work well. Im not concerned with the speed of a player in the 3 hole. Speed is nice, but not a necessity especially if u look around the league. Bruce has 17 walks compared to 62 K's and Votto has like 37 walks to 72 K's and has played more this year. Bruce had a problem with K's in the minors too. I dont see it going away enough. I want my 3 hole hitter to either make contact or get on base most of the time. Griffey and Dunn k'd way too often in a key situation. Thats why i dont like Phillips in the 4 hole, but he wont K 150 times at least. assuming we dont go out and get a badass middle of the lineup hitter i would want... 1) New player either SS or CF (can dickerson play up here?) 2) Keppinger (3B) 3) Votto (LF) - for some reason i think he could just destroy here when i see him play. i feel he can be a good player at this spot. he is only hitting 265 with RISP right now, but he doesnt have any protection behind him so he doesnt really see shit for pitches. He hits lefties better than righties by a couple points so we wouldnt have to worry about that. 4) Phillips (2B) due to the lack of a better option 5) Bruce (RF) 6) EE (1B) 7) Hannigan © 8) New player either SS or CF or Gonzo EE's glove hasnt been the problem at 3B it has been his arm. His glove is actually real good and he has pretty good range. He could do a heck of a job at 1B and i know some of the coaches agree with that and i think thats where he is going this winter and spring is 1B. The former assistant GM that works for 700wlw now says he could see EE being a very good 1B. EE has the ability to hit REALLY well if he can put it all together. I think if he succeeded defensively more then it would improve his consistency all around. I think he takes the errors and criticism too serious and lets it get to him. He has shown that he can be clutch as hell and he has shown he has 30+ HR power. He is a young player and worth putting a lot of time into considering we have guys like Votto/Bruce/Phillips as well. If EE could be consistent then I would see him as the perfect 4 hole hitter then Phillips or Bruce can move to the 2 hole and the other stay in the 5 and Kepp could become the 6 hole hitter and if u look at his stats he hits REALLY well in the 6 hole (324 avg and only 260 in # 2 hole). He also hits well with RISP so being in the 6 hole he would get more opps than in the 2 hole and Phillips or Bruce gets more speed at the top. There are a lot of options. I think the thing is we dont have a true bat to rely on in the lineup. We need a guy like a Manny Ramirez so one of our guys really needs to step up or we need to make a move. we have a lot of solid pieces to put around a superstar but we dont have the superstar. i think bruce can be damn good but i dont think he is a superstar.[/quote] Without Dunn (in this scenario) and Jr wouldnt we be saving like 28 mil or something? We need to spend a chunk of that on a good 3, 4, or 5 hitter. Im not sure who all will be available but I would love some sort of player that will bat .310 hit 30 homers and drive in 115. So assuming no Dunn... 1. Hairston 2. Kepp 3. Phillips 4. Free agent 5. Bruce 6. EE or Votto 7. EE or Votto 8. Catcher 9. Pitcher Then depending on how Votto and Bruce do as they get better and more experienced we can move them accordingly. Like if Votto starts to hit really well and would fit in the 3 hole, put him at 3, Phillips at 2, and kepp at 7 or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 I forgot that dunn will probably not be back next year... we might be able to buy a cleanup hitter... Overall Thurman, I don't hate your lineup... I just don't know about Votto yet... I mean I really like him, but he is so damn inconsistant that I am not 100% sold he is a 3 hitter yet... But if he continues to progress, I could agree w/ that... And his numbers against lefties are damn impressive... I think that we need to at least look at other options at 3rd because EE is to inconsistant and he makes a lot of mistakes in the field... Yes they are with his arm, but that doesn't make any less painful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 [quote name='bengalrick' post='685008' date='Aug 6 2008, 08:11 PM']I forgot that dunn will probably not be back next year... we might be able to buy a cleanup hitter... Overall Thurman, I don't hate your lineup... I just don't know about Votto yet... I mean I really like him, but he is so damn inconsistant that I am not 100% sold he is a 3 hitter yet... But if he continues to progress, I could agree w/ that... And his numbers against lefties are damn impressive... [b]I think that we need to at least look at other options at 3rd because EE is to inconsistant and he makes a lot of mistakes in the field... Yes they are with his arm, but that doesn't make any less painful...[/b][/quote] thats why moving him to 1st would clear that up. he has a better glove than votto. votto would be the same or better than dunn in LF. move kepp to 3rd (altho i dont think he is a full time option, ive never believed in him to be more than a spot guy and still dont). take all the money saved and go after Milton Bradley (31) or Mark Teixeira (29) or Pat Burrell (32). if we cant land him then: take some of that money saved via Griffey and Dunn and sign one of: Orlando Cabrera (34) Rafael Furcal (31) Edgar Renteria (33) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 You lose me completely by saying that our best hitter (Kep) is only a spot guy... As far as who to pick up, you can keep Bradley (good player but cannot stay healthy) and all of the SS's... Cabrera is good but isn't a leadoff man (which in your scenario we need), furcal is injury prone (we have one of those with hairston), and renteria isn't that great any more (he is batting 7th and 8th in detroit and is lucky to still have a job)... I'd love to have burrell or Teixeira though, but that still leaves the leadoff spot in your scenario... As far as moving EE to first base, what the hell are you thinking? Has he ever played there? Have you? You realize that it isn't quite the same as playing third right? We need to upgrade defensively at first, not put someone there to try to hide them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 [quote name='bengalrick' post='685164' date='Aug 7 2008, 07:15 AM']You lose me completely by saying that our best hitter (Kep) is only a spot guy... As far as who to pick up, you can keep Bradley (good player but cannot stay healthy) and all of the SS's... Cabrera is good but isn't a leadoff man (which in your scenario we need), furcal is injury prone (we have one of those with hairston), and renteria isn't that great any more (he is batting 7th and 8th in detroit and is lucky to still have a job)... I'd love to have burrell or Teixeira though, but that still leaves the leadoff spot in your scenario... As far as moving EE to first base, what the hell are you thinking? Has he ever played there? Have you? You realize that it isn't quite the same as playing third right? We need to upgrade defensively at first, not put someone there to try to hide them...[/quote] Kep has never put a full season together. He wont. He has sucked ass since he came back. He isnt our best hitter. He isnt in our top 5. The love affair for him is ridiculous. Bradley is more than a good player. The SS's are based on need, i know none are perfect but the FA market this year SUCKS. EE can play first. He has played 1st in his past and the coaches are planning to move him there as long as Dunn isnt resigned (which isnt supposed to happen). Putting EE at first isnt hiding him, its upgrading with someone who will outplay votto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 I am tired of arguing with a wall... I disagree w/ almost everything you are saying though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThurmanMunster Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 [quote name='bengalrick' post='685290' date='Aug 7 2008, 12:19 PM']I am tired of arguing with a wall... I disagree w/ almost everything you are saying though...[/quote] what do u disagree with? cuz kepp HASNT put a full season together, he has sucked since he came back, dunn most likely isnt coming back, the coaches plan to move EE to 1B and votto to LF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted August 7, 2008 Report Share Posted August 7, 2008 [quote name='ThurmanMunster' post='685297' date='Aug 7 2008, 12:34 PM']what do u disagree with? cuz kepp HASNT put a full season together, he has sucked since he came back, dunn most likely isnt coming back, the coaches plan to move EE to 1B and votto to LF.[/quote] Kepp isn't hitting the ball since he has been back, but the fact that he is a great hitter, I think there may be a reason behind his slump... He would have been fine as far as putting together a full season if a freak accident with his knee didn't happen... He has to be considered as the SS next year... If they move EE to first base, I will be amazed... I like Votto in LF, but that isn't a secret... I think that the first baseman needs to be a very good fielder and Votto isn't... Neither is EE though, or Dunn for that matter... We agree 100% on Dunn... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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