Up front about needs

[Bengals1181]

[quote]Up front about needs
By GEOFF HOBSON
February 14, 2008


Posted: 5:05 a.m.

Lewis
With Marvin Lewis stressing running the ball on offense and rushing the passer on defense, the Bengals are looking for a few good linemen on both sides of the ball, as well as scouring the ranks of running backs and tight ends in the draft and free agency.

"We know we have to run the football more productively to be a better football team and we want to have those pieces in place in order to do that," Lewis said in anticipation of next week's NFL scouting combine and the start of free agency Feb. 29. "And that's twofold. That's the running back position and our front guys. We'll address that."

The Bengals finished in the bottom quartile of the NFL in both rushing and sacks. With a new defensive coordinator in Mike Zimmer and linebackers coach in Jeff FitzGerald, Lewis said finding pass rushers is an emphasis.

"That has to be a priority. You have to be able to affect the game by knocking around the quarterback and pressuring the football," Lewis said. "We've addressed the coverage part and we'll continue to develop young guys there, but we've got to be effective in the other parts of the game."

That leads to the two biggest questions in free agency with right end Justin Smith and right tackle Stacy Andrews. Lewis said the Bengals have had talks with most of their potential free agents, but that there hasn't been progress with some. Smith appears to fall into that category.


Smith
Smith had just two sacks after averaging nearly seven in his first six years and agent Jim Steiner said Wednesday that his anticipation is that the Bengals won't put the franchise tag on him for the second straight year.

"We're preparing to go into the market and we would hope that the Bengals would be in the mix," Steiner said.

With Smith in the $20 million or so upfront category, that's doubtful. Lewis said the Bengals plan to use the franchise tag if they can't get a long-term deal with a player he wouldn't name. If it's not Smith, the next two candidates appear to be Andrews and free safety Madieu Williams.

Williams doesn't play up front, but his number would only be $4.4 million, the average of the top five safety salaries. Andrews would be $7.5 million, a huge number for a guy with only 11 NFL starts at tackle and a guy that may be backing up if Willie Anderson, as expected, comes back healthy.

But on Wednesday, Lewis had high praise for Andrews and said the Bengals are "conscience" of the perennial Pro Bowler Anderson's age and recent spate of injuries.


Anderson
"He gave you hope at the end of the year that he can return physically," said Lewis of Anderson, who missed eight games with a knee bruise. "No question Stacy is a very important part of our football team. Every time we put Stacy at a slot, we watch him grow. Whether it is left guard, whether it is right guard, whether it is right tackle. Every time that he has had legitimate time, you've seen a guy ascend very quickly. Very coachable. Very willing to learn. Very good studier. He's what you want."

One thing about that one-time $7.5 million hit is that the Bengals could probably still keep Anderson and his big number. The upside is that Andrews can play a lot of different spots in a pinch.

While Lewis is hopeful Anderson can return off injury, he puts running back Rudi Johnson in the same category after Johnson missed his first games since becoming the starter in 2004 with a hamstring injury. Even before the injury, Johnson's yards per carry have dipped since 2006 to 3.5 yards.

"Because of injury at our running back position, we will take a deep, hard look at that," Lewis said. "I think we're confident that Rudi J. will be energized and excited and slam the ball against the wall like he did against Tennessee (after a touchdown). He's a prideful young man and we're excited he'll get back and do that. Hopefully we'll have the services of Chris Perry. I think we're unsure about Kenny Irons right now."

Irons, the second-round pick last year, tore his anterior cruciate ligament in his knee in preseason and may not be ready right away. Perry didn't play at all last year coming off a dislocated ankle so Lewis indicated the Bengals are looking for some stable depth to go along with Kenny Watson in the effort to find a healthy bell cow back.

But protecting quarterback Carson Palmer in the sack-happy AFC North remains a priority and is reflected in the club's new draft strategy for tight ends. After barely missing tight ends they have targeted in the draft (Jason Witten, Anthony Fasano), Lewis said the Bengals have to forget finding that rare college prospect that can both catch and block.

"I think we're going to have to take an athletic guy that grows up and becomes a big, strong guy because unless you don't get that (all-around) guy in the first round, he probably doesn't exist," Lewis said. "It's got to be just like every other spot (and develop him). Look at a guy that can run and catch and that we can develop into a good blocker at the point of attack.

"It's such an important part of the position in our division. Either having to block a 3-4 linebacker and or defensive end in a 4-3, it's big for us. We play three teams in our division that guys get a couple of multiple looks. In order to win six games in our division, we know right out of the block this guy has to be pretty well stacked together. But in order to have another weapon, particularly on early downs, you have to have the other, lesser physical player right now and let's go get a guy that is a better receiver and see how that works."

Of course, it's a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg because the Bengals use so may three-receiver sets that they don't look to throw to the tight end very much. But Lewis said if they found that receiver type to go along with the blocking that Reggie Kelly, Daniel Coats and Nate Lawrie give them, they could use more regular sets of two backs and one or two tight ends.

One guy the Bengals won't be looking to get in the draft or free agency is that fourth quarterback. Lewis said signing Jordan Palmer last month isn't a ploy to make his big brother happy after he left displeased following the season. In fact, Lewis said, it's an idea that Carson Palmer didn't like last year when Jordan Palmer came out of Texas-El Paso.

But after the Redskins took Jordan in the sixth round, they cut him, and despite several tryouts elsewhere he didn't hook on. Plus, backup Ryan Fitzpatrick's status is a bit uncertain as a restricted free agent.

"Things have worked out differently now," Lewis said. "(Jordan) is excited about an opportunity. It's an easy thing for the guy to come in here. I think he's going to be pretty comfortable. He's going to get right to football. He probably knows where he'll stay at when he starts the offseason. There are some things here that give him the chance (to get acclimated). All he wanted was a chance and an opportunity and I think we'll provide that."[/quote]

[Jamie_B]

Gladd to see Marvin so candid about the needs.

[BK Cincy Connection]

Kenny Watson must have slapped Marvin's moms or called her a bitch or somthin because Marv doesn't seem to give this guy any props. But Marvin is talking about Rudi coming back and all that...BS, Kenny was your man on that field Sundays and if he would have given Kenny half of Rudi's carries the Bengals would not have had that bad a rushing year.

[TigerJ@w]

[quote name='BK Cincy Connection' post='632313' date='Feb 14 2008, 03:34 PM']Kenny Watson must have slapped Marvin's moms or called her a bitch or somthin because Marv doesn't seem to give this guy any props. But Marvin is talking about Rudi coming back and all that...BS, Kenny was your man on that field Sundays and if he would have given Kenny half of Rudi's carries the Bengals would not have had that bad a rushing year.[/quote]

He has no clue about RBs, Perry over Jackson? LOL LeBLOW was the same way.

[TigerJ@w]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='632310' date='Feb 14 2008, 03:26 PM']Gladd to see Marvin so candid about the needs.[/quote]

He finally might be getting a brain about how to build a winning team. I am glad he is coming out in the open about this team. It is about time!

He is finally saying the right things, OL (broke, need to fix), DL (broke, need to fix), RB (broke, need to fix), putting pressure on the QB with a real pass rusher, getting a pass catching TE first instead of stupid blocking ones. Finally!

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='BK Cincy Connection' post='632313' date='Feb 14 2008, 03:34 PM']Kenny Watson must have slapped Marvin's moms or called her a bitch or somthin because Marv doesn't seem to give this guy any props. But Marvin is talking about Rudi coming back and all that...BS, Kenny was your man on that field Sundays and if he would have given Kenny half of Rudi's carries the Bengals would not have had that bad a rushing year.[/quote]


props for what?

what did watson ever do running the ball? have his only decent agmes against the worlds worst run D's?

i suppose he should get a trophy for running all over the jets...

seriously folks, watson is a gread guy to have as a utility runner/catcher/blocker. but he has never proven he can handle a full load, or even half the load, ever...anywhere..

[Marvin]

while watson hasn't proven he can carry a full load, rudi hasn't proven that '07 was a fluke of a horrid year, namely because neither has been given a chance.

something needs fixed and i suspect it has nothing to do with who stands behind carson rather it points to a problem in the people that stand in front of him.

we need to keep stacey, he's young with upside that is unlimited.

[CTBengalsFan]

I'm glad Marvin's being this open too. Sounds like he may be coming around on a pass-catching TE too.

[BK Cincy Connection]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='632395' date='Feb 14 2008, 11:37 PM']props for what?

what did watson ever do running the ball? have his only decent agmes against the worlds worst run D's?

i suppose he should get a trophy for running all over the jets...

seriously folks, watson is a gread guy to have as a utility runner/catcher/blocker. but he has never proven he can handle a full load, or even half the load, ever...anywhere..[/quote]

I just think Kenny deserves a shot. Check this out...Kenny averaged 4.3 YPC as opposed to Rudi's 2.9 YPC. Kenny had 178 carries to Rudi's 170. Let's extrapolate Rudi's 170 carries at 4.3 YPC and that is an additional 731 yards giving Kenny 1,494 total yards for the season (which would have led the NFL).

Just in case you say that is unrealistic if we give him half of Rudi's carries, 85 at 4.3 YPC is still an additional 366 yards giving Kenny 1,097 total yards for the season (which would have been 14th in the league)

I don't know what everybody's problem with Kenny is...when I watched the Bengals play I saw a capable effective back. Give him a chance!

[Inigo Montoya]

Marvin guaranteed they will use the franchise tag. That's big news.

[MULLY]

What I think Marvin should do is step down as head coach and have Mike Brown bring in some of the coaching talent we have on this forum. I mean, Jesus, all the answers to make the Bengals a Super Bowl caliber team are right here.
MULLY

[stinger223]

If Marvin/SOB decide to franchise Madieu & let Stacey go into free agency I will walk to Paul Brown Stadium & slap them both with a set of brass knuckles! After their performances last season it's obvious the Bengals can't trust Levi or Willie to be healthy when the season starts. I say they make Andrews the starter in camp & let the "training room twins" EARN their way onto the field.

The secondary will be OK with White/Nuke/D-Jax at safety. But I don't want another year of Levi whiffing on every other play,Willie "starting" games then leaving after 2 plays, & watching Scott frickin' Kooistra protect our franchise QB!
Christ if they are worried about saving money just use the transition tag. We still have the right to match any offer Stacy gets.

[dacow]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='632395' date='Feb 14 2008, 11:37 PM']props for what?

what did watson ever do running the ball? have his only decent agmes against the worlds worst run D's?

i suppose he should get a trophy for running all over the jets...

seriously folks, watson is a gread guy to have as a utility runner/catcher/blocker. but he has never proven he can handle a full load, or even half the load, ever...anywhere..[/quote]

Might be the first thing you ever wrote that made sense. Watson is a great utility guy. If Chris Perry wasn't Chrissy Perry, you wouldn't need hiim. Watson gets exactly whats there but he has no ability to break anything beyond 7 yards. He is better than the present day Rudi but then again who isn't. If Irons is not going to be 100%, they need someone.

[Rick]

[quote name='stinger223' post='632707' date='Feb 16 2008, 07:18 AM']If Marvin/SOB decide to franchise Madieu & let Stacey go into free agency I will walk to Paul Brown Stadium & slap them both with a set of brass knuckles! After their performances last season it's obvious the Bengals can't trust Levi or Willie to be healthy when the season starts. I say they make Andrews the starter in camp & let the "training room twins" EARN their way onto the field.

The secondary will be OK with White/Nuke/D-Jax at safety. But I don't want another year of Levi whiffing on every other play,Willie "starting" games then leaving after 2 plays, & watching Scott frickin' Kooistra protect our franchise QB!
Christ if they are worried about saving money just use the transition tag. We still have the right to match any offer Stacy gets.[/quote]

You are right on with Stacey. He is going to be a star in the NFL. We need to sign him for a long time. I like your idea of making him a starter, too.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='stinger223' post='632707' date='Feb 16 2008, 07:18 AM']If Marvin/SOB decide to franchise Madieu & let Stacey go into free agency I will walk to Paul Brown Stadium & slap them both with a set of brass knuckles! After their performances last season it's obvious the Bengals can't trust Levi or Willie to be healthy when the season starts. I say they make Andrews the starter in camp & let the "training room twins" EARN their way onto the field.

The secondary will be OK with White/Nuke/D-Jax at safety. But I don't want another year of Levi whiffing on every other play,Willie "starting" games then leaving after 2 plays, & watching Scott frickin' Kooistra protect our franchise QB!
Christ if they are worried about saving money just use the transition tag. We still have the right to match any offer Stacy gets.[/quote]


Levi played well down the stretch, not sure what you're smoking.

[Inigo Montoya]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='632726' date='Feb 16 2008, 10:35 AM']Levi played well down the stretch, not sure what you're smoking.[/quote]


I agree. I thought Levi played well once he had his legs under him. LT is the least of our worries, IMO. Whitworth has proven he can fill in when called upon.

I think the Bengals are in a tough position with Andrews. They'd really like to keep him, but there are several factors working against it. First, he isn't guaranteed a starting spot. You'd have to think he wants to be a starter at this point. Second, his franchise number is too high for a non-starter. Third, he will attract attention in free agency and the bidding might get ridiculous. I can easily see someone throwing $25 million plus with $10-15 million guaranteed. He's one of the top free agent linemen available and he's highly regarded throughout the league.

I will admit that franchising Stacy has some advantages. It gives the team more time to work out a long-term deal at a less ridiculous price. If he only signs the franchise tender for one year, at least we'd be able to see how things stand with Willie after this season. If things go south with Willie, we'd still be able to keep Stacy after 2008.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='TrustNMarvin' post='632402' date='Feb 14 2008, 11:58 PM']while watson hasn't proven he can carry a full load, rudi hasn't proven that '07 was a fluke of a horrid year, namely because neither has been given a chance.

something needs fixed and i suspect it has nothing to do with who stands behind carson rather it points to a problem in the people that stand in front of him.

we need to keep stacey, he's young with upside that is unlimited.[/quote]

watson has had the chance previously in his career, and is designated a 3rd down/situational guy, hell the coahces didnt even think enough of him to extend him right away, wasnt he cut or waived atsome point then re-signed? and he couldnt do it in washington.

[quote name='BK Cincy Connection' post='632554' date='Feb 15 2008, 02:53 PM']I just think Kenny deserves a shot. Check this out...Kenny averaged 4.3 YPC as opposed to Rudi's 2.9 YPC. Kenny had 178 carries to Rudi's 170. Let's extrapolate Rudi's 170 carries at 4.3 YPC and that is an additional 731 yards giving Kenny 1,494 total yards for the season (which would have led the NFL).

Just in case you say that is unrealistic if we give him half of Rudi's carries, 85 at 4.3 YPC is still an additional 366 yards giving Kenny 1,097 total yards for the season (which would have been 14th in the league)

I don't know what everybody's problem with Kenny is...when I watched the Bengals play I saw a capable effective back. Give him a chance![/quote]

his YPC are pretty pointless, he got many runs down late in the game on passing downs or situations, his YPC are always high, as he is a situational runner. a 9 yard run on 3rd and 17 doesnt really prove anything to me, asidew from not trusting the oline enough to choose a passing play.

i like watson a LOT, he is a great asset to the team, but there is one thing he hasnt been, isnt now, and will never be, is a all day all year #1 back, he just doesnt have it, he doesnt ahve the speed or ability to be successful in that role nor does he have the stamina to withstand the torchure of a full NFL load.

he is the 4th most talented back on the team, hell maybe 5th counting dorsey, tho he is the #1 best pass blocking RB on the team... he has his role and is successful in it, im happy continuing that success on its own.

[sparky151]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='632869' date='Feb 17 2008, 01:19 AM']watson has had the chance previously in his career, and is designated a 3rd down/situational guy, hell the coahces didnt even think enough of him to extend him right away, wasnt he cut or waived atsome point then re-signed? and he couldnt do it in washington.



his YPC are pretty pointless, he got many runs down late in the game on passing downs or situations, his YPC are always high, as he is a situational runner. a 9 yard run on 3rd and 17 doesnt really prove anything to me, asidew from not trusting the oline enough to choose a passing play.

i like watson a LOT, he is a great asset to the team, but there is one thing he hasnt been, isnt now, and will never be, is a all day all year #1 back, he just doesnt have it, he doesnt ahve the speed or ability to be successful in that role nor does he have the stamina to withstand the torchure of a full NFL load.

he is the 4th most talented back on the team, hell maybe 5th counting dorsey, tho he is the #1 best pass blocking RB on the team... he has his role and is successful in it, im happy continuing that success on its own.[/quote]

Yes but once we cut Rudi, we can give his roster spot to Irons or Wilson and let Watson have some rest without hurting the running game as much as Rudi did last year. None of our running backs are bellcows but if we ditch the old (Rudi) and the perennially injured (Perry), we can move on to filling out the position with healthy contributors. If we finally fix the defense this year, then we can look at upgrading at RB in 09.

[Inigo Montoya]

[quote name='GoBengals' post='632869' date='Feb 17 2008, 01:19 AM']watson has had the chance previously in his career, and is designated a 3rd down/situational guy, hell the coahces didnt even think enough of him to extend him right away, wasnt he cut or waived atsome point then re-signed? and he couldnt do it in washington.



his YPC are pretty pointless, he got many runs down late in the game on passing downs or situations, his YPC are always high, as he is a situational runner. a 9 yard run on 3rd and 17 doesnt really prove anything to me, asidew from not trusting the oline enough to choose a passing play.

i like watson a LOT, he is a great asset to the team, but there is one thing he hasnt been, isnt now, and will never be, is a all day all year #1 back, he just doesnt have it, he doesnt ahve the speed or ability to be successful in that role nor does he have the stamina to withstand the torchure of a full NFL load.

he is the 4th most talented back on the team, hell maybe 5th counting dorsey, tho he is the #1 best pass blocking RB on the team... he has his role and is successful in it, im happy continuing that success on its own.[/quote]


The people saying that Watson should start are wrong. I agree with you on that. He's a poor man's Kevin Faulk. He does a number of good things, but he's not exceptional at any single one. A solid player, but he isn't our starting RB.

I disagree that YPC isn't a relevant stat. In games he started in 2007, Watson averaged 82.0 yards per game and 4.2 yards per carry. In 2005 and 2006, Rudi Johnson averaged 88.9 and 81.6 YPG along with 4.3 and 3.8 YPC. Watson actually was slightly more productive in his starts in 2007 than Rudi was in 2006.