CTBengalsFan Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 Two debt ballooning boondoggles don't make a right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='23 March 2010 - 12:15 PM' timestamp='1269360931' post='872455'] I do completely... but you're going to justify one bad decision with another??? sounds like the way my kids reason something out when they've screwed up. oh yeah - well... he did if first... I mean, really? Because from my less than completely informed opinion you're defending this healthcare bill - based on what I've seen of your posts the last two days. [/quote] Some of it, I do like some of it. I already told you that. But as I said I nor you get everything we want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 A little too optimistic with respect to the political future, [url="http://www.counterpunch.org/cooke03232010.html"]but reasonable analysis, imo.[/url] Snippet (my emphasis): [quote]Dennis Kucinich, the most “radical” of the progressive Democrats, waited until the last round before he threw in the towel to the health care industry. His capitulation is especially symbolic, as many progressive activists around the country remained in the Democratic Party solely because he was there. His inglorious surrender signals what many progressives already knew: [b]the Democrats are a corporate dominated party, where liberal ideas are tolerated so long as they have no actual effect on policy.[/b] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 So true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted March 23, 2010 Report Share Posted March 23, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='22 March 2010 - 02:24 PM' timestamp='1269285840' post='872180'] I'll agree with that 100%. Who, again, voted for Obama??? Yes - I'm pointing the finger... nobody can shirk responsibility for this on the previous administration or say it was something they "inherited"... this is his deal - lock, stock, and barrel. [/quote] I'm in!!! I voted for OBAMA and I'm damn glad I did!! Who do you think pays the hospital bill when the person without insurance goes in? I'm pretty sure that part of the $16000 that my wife and I paid in FEDERAL TAXES is used, and My insurance premiums go up as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Elflocko' date='21 March 2010 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1269204306' post='871970'] The purchase requirement is asinine... [/quote] It's sort of required if they are going to remove eliminating pre-existing conditions.. Why pay for insurance if you aren't sick? If you don't include a penalty then everyone would just wait until they got sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Lucid' date='25 March 2010 - 12:34 PM' timestamp='1269534875' post='872975'] It's sort of required if they are going to remove eliminating pre-existing conditions.. Why pay for insurance if you aren't sick? If you don't include a penalty then everyone would just wait until they got sick. [/quote] uhm arent people with pre-existing conditions already sick? You lost me on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='25 March 2010 - 09:47 AM' timestamp='1269535671' post='872977'] uhm arent people with pre-existing conditions already sick? You lost me on that one. [/quote] It's about the people that aren't sick currently. Like he said, if you aren't sick, why would you pay for insurance? Requiring everyone to have it lowers the cost for everyone, as it does with group insurance at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='sois' date='25 March 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1269536056' post='872979'] It's about the people that aren't sick currently. Like he said, if you aren't sick, why would you pay for insurance? Requiring everyone to have it lowers the cost for everyone, as it does with group insurance at work. [/quote] I totally understand that, what I'm missing is how people with pre-existing conditions arent sick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='25 March 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1269536377' post='872984'] I totally understand that, what I'm missing is how people with pre-existing conditions arent sick? [/quote] I don't know where you are getting that. They aren't removing preexisting conditions, they are removing the restriction that most insurances companies have currently which enables them to offer coverage to a new client but if he had a preexisting illness, that is not covered. Only new illnesses from that day forward are covered. It's impossible to remove the actual preexisting condition. That would be cool if so. Magical insurance company FTW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='sois' date='25 March 2010 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1269536548' post='872987'] I don't know where you are getting that. They aren't removing preexisting conditions, they are removing the restriction that most insurances companies have currently which enables them to offer coverage to a new client but if he had a preexisting illness, that is not covered. Only new illnesses from that day forward are covered. It's impossible to remove the actual preexisting condition. That would be cool if so. Magical insurance company FTW. [/quote] I follow all that logic, what I think he should have said that would make his point more clear is that if your going to get rid of pre-existing conditions thereby adding more people who are sick but were not covered until now into the pool then in order to lower costs we need to make sure healthy people are added into the pool too. The way he framed it made me think he was saying people with pre-existing conditions were not sick. Edit: Although even then I dont see how those were adding in with pre-existing conditions dont just lower the costs by adding them in by default? I mean I would assume all who want insurance get it even when they are healthy. I think those opposed to this are opposed in the grounds that its required to own it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='25 March 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1269535671' post='872977'] uhm arent people with pre-existing conditions already sick? You lost me on that one. [/quote] Yes... But why pay for insurance when I am healthy.. Since they can't refuse me for having a pre-existing condition, I can just wait until I get cancer or heart disease to sign up. If you don't penalize me for not having insurance when I am healthy, I don't pay into the system and just leech.. See? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='25 March 2010 - 10:15 AM' timestamp='1269537359' post='872995'] Edit: Although even then I dont see how those were adding in with pre-existing conditions dont just lower the costs by adding them in by default? I mean I would assume all who want insurance get it even when they are healthy. I think those opposed to this are opposed in the grounds that its required to own it. [/quote] On paper yeah your idea is sound, but in real life, people don't prepare, don't save, don't anticipate, don't educate. You would think that obtaining insurance is a basic necessity, but many don't see it that way. This is a problem from the rich to the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Lucid' date='25 March 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1269537676' post='872998'] Yes... But why pay for insurance when I am healthy.. Since they can't refuse me for having a pre-existing condition, I can just wait until I get cancer or heart disease to sign up. If you don't penalize me for not having insurance when I am healthy, I don't pay into the system and just leech.. See? [/quote] No I dont see, because if I choose not to participate in the system I choose not to be able to see a doctor at all. Thus how would I even know if I had cancer or heart disease unless I went to the doctor to find out? Now in the case of a heart attack I would find out then (but in the case of cancer I may not find out until I was showing signs of it and getting sick) and we can discuss the pitfalls of not seeing a doctor and the economic pitfalls of having to get added on to the system at that point in time, but just because I have health insurance doesnt mean I am going to the doctor. Edit: I follow your logic with regard to adding people on, with that being unknown until showing signs pre-existing condtions, but many already know they have it but cant get added on. For instance I have a friend of a friend who knew she had medically treated acne but couldnt get added on because it was considered a "pre-existing condidion." My point had to do with those who dont know until too late that they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='25 March 2010 - 10:27 AM' timestamp='1269538029' post='873001'] No I dont see, because if I choose not to participate in the system I choose not to be able to see a doctor at all. Thus how would I even know if I had cancer or heart disease unless I went to the doctor to find out? Now in the case of a heart attack I would find out then (but in the case of cancer I may not find out until I was showing signs of it and getting sick) and we can discuss the pitfalls of not seeing a doctor and the economic pitfalls of having to get added on to the system at that point in time, but just because I have health insurance doesnt mean I am going to the doctor. [/quote] I am confused why you are confused. This is a cost spreading concept. If everyone pays, regardless of health, then the cost for everyone is low. The system is not bogged down by moral hazzard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='sois' date='25 March 2010 - 01:22 PM' timestamp='1269537744' post='873000'] On paper yeah your idea is sound, but in real life, people don't prepare, don't save, don't anticipate, don't educate. You would think that obtaining insurance is a basic necessity, but many don't see it that way. This is a problem from the rich to the poor. [/quote] Completely agree. We have both been in the "people arent personally responsible despite what they say" camp for a while now.[quote name='sois' date='25 March 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1269538196' post='873003'] I am confused why you are confused. This is a cost spreading concept. If everyone pays, regardless of health, then the cost for everyone is low. The system is not bogged down by moral hazzard. [/quote] Read the edit, it had to do with pre-existing conditions that people know and dont know about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 **brick hits head** My friend of a friend had but lost her insurance, if she already knew she had her condition that means she already had insurance at one point (or payed out of pocket) and lost it. Under this system, she would have never lost it. I had to work through that one but I got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' date='25 March 2010 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1269538377' post='873004'] Completely agree. We have both been in the "people arent personally responsible despite what they say" camp for a while now. Read the edit, it had to do with pre-existing conditions that people know and dont know about. [/quote] Like I said before, this is a cost spreading bill. Nothing is going to prevent me from stuffing my face with twinkies or your friend not going to get routine checkups. This only spreads the hurt of devastating brain transplant costs (for example) to many more people instead of the few that are paying. Insurance, in it's nature, is mitigating. This is magnifying that concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Lucid' date='25 March 2010 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1269534875' post='872975'] It's sort of required if they are going to remove eliminating pre-existing conditions.. Why pay for insurance if you aren't sick? If you don't include a penalty then everyone would just wait until they got sick. [/quote] I see the point that you're making (and don't necessarily disagree), but that logic only holds water until you get hit by a car. You might have healthy arteries, but the windshield stuck on your face can impeded a healthy existence... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Elflocko' date='25 March 2010 - 02:35 PM' timestamp='1269542141' post='873024'] I see the point that you're making (and don't necessarily disagree), but that logic only holds water until you get hit by a car. You might have healthy arteries, but the windshield stuck on your face can impeded a healthy existence... [/quote] Yeah, you get hit by a car, and guess what? You still get treated because we don't refuse treatment to people in need due to inability to pay. So then all the people who were paying into the system now have to pay for your medical treatment that you didn't pay for because you never paid into the system. The only way to make it work is to make everyone pay to play. Either that or draw up contracts for people to sign that states they don't have to get insurance, but if they pass it up now, they can't take it later, and if they get sick and can't afford treatment then tough shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='sois' date='25 March 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1269536056' post='872979'] It's about the people that aren't sick currently. Like he said, if you aren't sick, why would you pay for insurance? Requiring everyone to have it lowers the cost for everyone, as it does with group insurance at work. [/quote] You just summed up why the entire thing is asinine.... How is it constitutional to force you or me to buy anything just because we live and breath? Is that really independence? Lets just have one big government company that hands out everything from food to toilet paper to cars for everyone and we all give the government all of our money(I am sure they will accept direct deposit).....We can all be assimilated to one standard and everyone can be happy. No one has to worry about excelling in anything. We can just live in a mediocre society while the government decides what is best for us with our(their ahem) money. We can all be exactly the same...the new American Dream! If I wanted it this way I should have just never moved out of my parents house and just given them all the money I earned and let them make personal choices for me..... This entire thing is ridiculous and I don't think I have ever been more angry, upset and disheartened with out government. I wish I had every single vote I had back that went to the democratic party(which was about 40%.....Sherrod Brown ahem!) back.... Welcome to America people!!! The newest land of entitlement! You live! You breath! You fart! You HAVE to purchase health care from the government AND help pay for the lazy bastards that can't afford it!(I know there are people in bad situations etc etc etc.....that need help and I am all for giving them that help) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 (opens can of worms) You know your not constitutionally forced to pay taxes either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='25 March 2010 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1269547011' post='873042'] You just summed up why the entire thing is asinine.... How is it constitutional to force you or me to buy anything just because we live and breath? Is that really independence? Lets just have one big government company that hands out everything from food to toilet paper to cars for everyone and we all give the government all of our money(I am sure they will accept direct deposit).....We can all be assimilated to one standard and everyone can be happy. No one has to worry about excelling in anything. We can just live in a mediocre society while the government decides what is best for us with our(their ahem) money. We can all be exactly the same...the new American Dream! If I wanted it this way I should have just never moved out of my parents house and just given them all the money I earned and let them make personal choices for me..... What's that old saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure? This entire thing is ridiculous and I don't think I have ever been more angry, upset and disheartened with out government. I wish I had every single vote I had back that went to the democratic party(which was about 40%.....Sherrod Brown ahem!) back.... Welcome to America people!!! The newest land of entitlement! You live! You breath! You fart! You HAVE to purchase health care from the government AND help pay for the lazy bastards that can't afford it!(I know there are people in bad situations etc etc etc.....that need help and I am all for giving them that help) [/quote] Your rant might actually make sense if we weren't already paying for people who can't afford health insurance.. Except we pay for them once they are already sick, usually VERY much so because they can't afford to see a doctor.. And by that time the treatment we are paying for (for them) is astronomically more expensive than if we had just forked over the money in the first place to help keep them healthy. What's that old saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Oh and by the way before we start taking Democrat votes, lets be sure we know who's idea the single person mandates were, because they werent the democrats idea... http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/03/23/90948/that-health-mandate-gop-is-suing.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 [quote name='Lucid' date='25 March 2010 - 04:03 PM' timestamp='1269547398' post='873048'] Your rant might actually make sense if we weren't already paying for people who can't afford health insurance.. Except we pay for them once they are already sick, usually VERY much so because they can't afford to see a doctor.. And by that time the treatment we are paying for (for them) is astronomically more expensive than if we had just forked over the money in the first place to help keep them healthy. What's that old saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. [/quote] Then I want disclosure of the person/people that will be receiving my tax dollars and I want control over what this person eats/drinks, whether they smoke, do drugs, take part in high risk activities(recreational or other), what kind of jobs they do, how much they exercise....etc etc etc..... It should be my right to know how my investment is being taken care of...right? How long before we are in the streets protesting the government for our right to employment?...oh wait. Your theory only holds true if we go to a utopian society where everyone all of a sudden starts eating right, exercising, and taking care of themselves.... The funny thing about it is....you can't make anyone do ANY prevention.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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