Vol_Bengal Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1282151805' post='907509'] I dont see the offended argument at all, it isnt on ground zero at all and it used to be a burlington coat factory for gods sake. "Hallowed ground"? Hardly. Bigotry masked in patriotism, yes. [/quote] Really? You can't see where there would be some offense toward it? Really? Come on Jamie. I understand being all "constitutional rights", etc. but you're telling me you can't empathize with these people? Whatever. [quote] No I expect that the first amendment be upheld. [/quote] Oh, I didn't know that the option of moving the location was infringing upon their right to free speech... Again, whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 I'm going to turn my house into a mosque and institute Sharia law in my family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mullichicken25 Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1282151484' post='907505'] fair enough. We disagree. Happens all the time. Not a thing wrong with that. As for the comments about the populace... you will most definitely have a large portion of people that will think that. But that would be an extreme minority. What is comical in this whole debate... honestly, I could care less if they build it or not. [b]My only point is that I can see the argument of those that are offended. I can understand that argument. And, on the flipside, I asked several posts back for anything that was anchoring the Imam to HAVING to build on that land. I never got any reason other than that would be "giving in"... and "they shouldn't have to"...[/b] I understand that argument as well. But pride will come back and kick you in the ass pretty good. I just didn't see what the Islamic community was "giving up" by moving the location. Still don't. [/quote] the best i can answer that question is that they chose to build there because it was convenient and worked for them. Then the whack jobs cried "the damn terrorists are building a shrine to honor conquered land in the middle of ground zero!" and shit hit the fan....that changes everything, its no longer a question of whether or not other sites would work. If no one made a big deal out of it, and lets say the effect it would have on traffic would be problematic and inconvenient, there probablly wouldnt have been a problem to move it somewhere else, but thats not the situation If you believe the site was chosen with good intentions, then no, physically, there is no reason that they CAN'T move the site as far as i can see. However, the reason that they do not want to move, the reason you're dismissing, is more than enough of a reason to stay in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 Jon Stewart again: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-16-2010/mosque-erade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1282152051' post='907513'] Sure it works... a populace is injured in some form. populace is then intruded upon by a symbol (whether right or wrong) that offends / brings back memories / whatever of that injury. populace goes all firestorm media, etc. entity attempting to intrude with symbol has a decision to make. Either tell em to kiss off, or try to sooth the masses. [/quote] the first amendment doesnt protect your rights to not be offended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1282152236' post='907517'] Really? You can't see where there would be some offense toward it? Really? Come on Jamie. I understand being all "constitutional rights", etc. but you're telling me you can't empathize with these people? Whatever. Oh, I didn't know that the option of moving the location was infringing upon their right to free speech... Again, whatever. [/quote] I know your not that thick but let me post the first amendment, because it addresses more than free speech. [quote]Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or [color="#FF0000"]prohibiting the free exercise thereof[/color]; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[/quote] Now how exactly is this not prohibiting their right to practice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1282153261' post='907526'] Jon Stewart again: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-16-2010/mosque-erade [/quote] [img]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f223/kromproductions/th_applause.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1282153724' post='907531'] I know your not that thick but let me post the first amendment, because it addresses more than free speech. Now how exactly is this not prohibiting their right to practice? [/quote] this isn't even a damn 1st Amendment issue. There is nothing legally that will stop them from doing what they want. And, you're right, these people don't have anything protecting their offense. It gets right down to decency, I guess. As John stated so clearly... just because you have a legal right to do something, doesn't necessarily mean you must. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1282154705' post='907535'] this isn't even a damn 1st Amendment issue. There is nothing legally that will stop them from doing what they want. And, you're right, these people don't have anything protecting their offense. It gets right down to decency, I guess. As John stated so clearly... just because you have a legal right to do something, doesn't necessarily mean you must. [/quote] I think I know how you would answer this question, Vol, so I ask you to explain to me the difference here: "Would it be a decent thing to ask black folks to sit in the back of the bus?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1282154705' post='907535'] this isn't even a damn 1st Amendment issue. There is nothing legally that will stop them from doing what they want. And, you're right, these people don't have anything protecting their offense. It gets right down to decency, I guess. As John stated so clearly... just because you have a legal right to do something, doesn't necessarily mean you must. [/quote] How do you figure that the infringement of these folk to practice their faith by telling them to take their center elsewhere isn't a first amendment issue? Are we now zoning where people of faith are allowed to practice that faith? Because that's offensive to me, but it's also a violation of the "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" clause of the first amendment. Ok someone is offended if I pray, and yes I could have the "decency" to not pray, but isnt that in and of itself offensive too? To ask that I practice my faith somewhere else because your offended. I see this very much as a first amendment issue, and I'm not sure how you dont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='mullichicken25' timestamp='1282143950' post='907456'] it is nothing short of mind blowing to me that people can not comprehend the diference between muslims and terrorist extremists dont people realize that if they were to say "ok, you're right, we won't build here" they're effectively acknowledging that they, and all muslims, share responsibility for the attacks of 9/11? Would any catholics here be willing to raise their hand and take some responsibility for molesting boys and covering it up? its a true tesitimate to the ignorance and lunacy of the general population of this country...[b]our kids and grandkids will one day look at back at these types of things with the same thoughts of "what the fuck? people really thought and said shit like that?[/b]" the way i did when i first learned about things like separate but equal and the intergration of public schools [/quote] Since when did YOU start making any sort of sense? And I disagree with the bolded because IMO it seems far more likely that our population will continue to get stupider as global communication makes it easier to spread mis-information, organize around the mis-information, and empty our wallets to those capitalizing on/creating our mis-information. Besides their doomed future, fuck having kids, puppies are so much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John~Galt Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1282159651' post='907551'] How do you figure that the infringement of these folk to practice their faith by telling them to take their center elsewhere isn't a first amendment issue? Are we now zoning where people of faith are allowed to practice that faith? Because that's offensive to me, but it's also a violation of the "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" clause of the first amendment. Ok someone is offended if I pray, and yes I could have the "decency" to not pray, but isnt that in and of itself offensive too? To ask that I practice my faith somewhere else because your offended. I see this very much as a first amendment issue, and I'm not sure how you dont. [/quote] The point of it is that the planners of this could have had a bit more foresight. Yes it is absolutely their right to do what they are planning and I would personally help them defend that right, but is it the right thing to do? I don't believe it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='John~Galt' timestamp='1282172444' post='907613'] The point of it is that the planners of this could have had a bit more foresight. Yes it is absolutely their right to do what they are planning and I would personally help them defend that right, but is it the right thing to do? I don't believe it is. [/quote] How many blocks do they need to not offend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John~Galt Posted August 18, 2010 Report Share Posted August 18, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1282172754' post='907617'] How many blocks do they need to not offend? [/quote] I have no idea. All I stated was that a little foresight and this controversy could have been avoided altogether. Like I said before I can see both sides of the issue. It was probably not the best idea to plan the project at that location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 [quote name='John~Galt' timestamp='1282174053' post='907626'] I have no idea. All I stated was that a little foresight and this controversy could have been avoided altogether. Like I said before I can see both sides of the issue. It was probably not the best idea to plan the project at that location. [/quote] Clearly you didn't read the article I posted which laid out a timetable of how this so-called controversy developed. Everything was peaches and cream until the John Bolton groupie and a few others started their hateful rants. Rants which certain portions of the media legitimized with toned-down language, and which now presents some form of plausibility to those who don't consider themselves as allies of the originators of this bullshit. And I'd be willing to agree that most folks who display concern now are not allies or in the same class as the scumbags who kicked up this particular duststorm. Actually, they're worse, because they are so easily manipulated. You want a prime reason for why this country is so fucked right now--this is a good place to start. Hateful folks kick up a pseudo-crisis, the media legitimizes it, and most of the rest of the population turns into cows. Moo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 [quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1282181998' post='907644'] Clearly you didn't read the article I posted which laid out a timetable of how this so-called controversy developed. Everything was peaches and cream until the John Bolton groupie and a few others started their hateful rants. Rants which certain portions of the media legitimized with toned-down language, and which now presents some form of plausibility to those who don't consider themselves as allies of the originators of this bullshit. And I'd be willing to agree that most folks who display concern now are not allies or in the same class as the scumbags who kicked up this particular duststorm. Actually, they're worse, because they are so easily manipulated. You want a prime reason for why this country is so fucked right now--this is a good place to start. Hateful folks kick up a pseudo-crisis, the media legitimizes it, and most of the rest of the population turns into cows. Moo! [/quote] I took a moment to read it when you posted it, then googled the woman and if im right in which blog is hers yeah she's pretty hateful. Israel vs Palestine sort of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1282182206' post='907646'] I took a moment to read it when you posted it, then googled the woman and if im right in which blog is hers yeah she's pretty hateful. Israel vs Palestine sort of stuff. [/quote] She's the one. Atlas Shrugged, indeed. She was part of the nutso neocon crowd who were supporters and very happy when GWB decided to build a bunch of Ground Zero's in Iraq. You can see her in briefly in this video, [url="http://www.metafilter.com/94896/Israel-is-our-only-hope-as-the-postAmerican-president-is-aiding-and-abetting-a-nuclear-Iran-Barack-Obama-is-enabling-Irans-Islamic-bomb-Pamela-Geller"]found via this discussion at Metafilter[/url], which is kind of like and adult Reddit or Digg. The link and subsequent links on that page are well worth reading for sanity's sake. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaQBrTROj2w[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 I don't like much the idea of being a cow and going "MOOO" but I had a good time being a herded as a sheep and chanting "BAAAAAAA-BAAAAAAAA" at the two Grateful Dead concerts I was lucky enough to attend in the early 1990's before Jer-Bear* died. Acid likely enhanced the experience. *South Park reference Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 [quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1282183921' post='907653'] She's the one. Atlas Shrugged, indeed. She was part of the nutso neocon crowd who were supporters and very happy when GWB decided to build a bunch of Ground Zero's in Iraq. You can see her in briefly in this video, [url="http://www.metafilter.com/94896/Israel-is-our-only-hope-as-the-postAmerican-president-is-aiding-and-abetting-a-nuclear-Iran-Barack-Obama-is-enabling-Irans-Islamic-bomb-Pamela-Geller"]found via this discussion at Metafilter[/url], which is kind of like and adult Reddit or Digg. The link and subsequent links on that page are well worth reading for sanity's sake. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaQBrTROj2w[/media] [/quote] It's a top 10 hit on the asshole charts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STRAYCAT Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 Do they have the right under OUR laws....yep Do they the right under legal rights.....yep Should they be permited......no fucking way.....it's not necessary to build it so close to ground zero....and don't they have enough built near already. Sorry guy's right or wrong..if they feel so sensitive to our loss then they should back off. They might get some slacks to build it..but how long will it last..only time will tell. What our country was founded on will be turned on us if we let more of this to happen. Alot of sellouts in this country will be it's downfall......and it's started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 [quote name='STRAYCAT' timestamp='1282185420' post='907671'] Do they have the right under OUR laws....yep Do they the right under legal rights.....yep Should they be permited......no fucking way.....it's not necessary to build it so close to ground zero....and don't they have enough built near already. Sorry guy's right or wrong..if they feel so sensitive to our loss then they should back off. They might get some slacks to build it..but how long will it last..only time will tell.[color="#FF0000"] What our country was founded on will be turned on us if we let more of this to happen. [/color] Alot of sellouts in this country will be it's downfall......and it's started. [/quote] uh.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 [quote name='STRAYCAT' timestamp='1282185420' post='907671'] Do they have the right under OUR laws....yep Do they the right under legal rights.....yep Should they be permited......no fucking way.....it's not necessary to build it so close to ground zero....and don't they have enough built near already. Sorry guy's right or wrong..if they feel so sensitive to our loss then they should back off. They might get some slacks to build it..but how long will it last..only time will tell. What our country was founded on will be turned on us if we let more of this to happen. Alot of sellouts in this country will be it's downfall......and it's started. [/quote] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FavUpD_IjVY[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STRAYCAT Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 I love it..must strike a nerve for both of you 2 to chime in......with the usual reply...moo pic...cute,uh......you get more out of that kicking a pig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 [quote name='STRAYCAT' timestamp='1282186374' post='907690'] I love it..must strike a nerve for both of you 2 to chime in......with the usual reply...moo pic...cute,uh......you get more out of that kicking a pig. [/quote] My "uh" was a response in the fact that you obviously missed the notion that this country was founded on religious freedom, so you saying that isn't even close to factually correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted August 19, 2010 Report Share Posted August 19, 2010 I do have to agree with StrayCat on one point...WHY even attempt to set up a venture that was in any way Muslim-oriented in an empty space to rent/buy that was this close to where the 9/11 attacks occurred? Surely the people behind this had to know the political ramifications of the proposal...why not somewhere, ANYWHERE else in the city? Surely another location could have been found and all this could have been avoided. I don't agree with the religious right in any way with the reaction to this but I can't help but wonder if the site location was more a function of availabilty and price than the need to provoke controversy. Its a no-win either way, really, in the eyes of many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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