oldschooler Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Hooky' timestamp='1326718675' post='1089904'] I know what he's saying. That stat tells you that they're a mediocre offense. And in my first post, I mentioned that I'm aware of Gruden's situation. But his situation doesn't change the fact that they're a mediocre offense. Sure, they had a limited off-season, but they had the whole season to start showing gradual improvement. If anything, they got worse. Again, I'm not saying that he isn't going to be a good OC, I'm just wondering what people saw that gives them optimism. Is the optimism based on pure hope? They replaced Brat, so now the offense will be fixed? [/quote] As I previously stated, they played 10 games against top 10 Defenses. They had a Rookie QB and a Rookie #1 WR that didn't have the benefit of any real offseason. The entire Offense had to learn a new system on the fly. They averaged more points and more yards per game than the year prior. And that was with players that had been in the same system for years. Why wouldn't everyone think the Offense will be better with a real offseason and further development from the young players? Getting Shipley back ect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigris Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='mongo' timestamp='1326580570' post='1089649'] No, it doesn't. 1. If someone went in motion in Brat's offense (which was not common), it was TJ, and it was because he was going to block on a run. Run and Shoot is motion every play, it's to see what coverage you're getting, and it's almost exclusively a pass. 2. We went single back in Brat's offense rarely, and almost none of them could catch. Usually, it was two backs, with a fullback leading the way. 3. Run and shoot didn't typically have a TE on the field, that's what I meant by little use of TE's. 4. Run and Shoot offenses were insanely pass heavy, with a sprinkling of the run to keep a defense honest. Coryell: 1. Numbered route system 2. Receivers challenging down field 3. Power running 4. QB throwing timed routes to specific spots (hence those TJ and Chad comeback routes) [/quote] Reggie motioned a ton and when he did, you could bet your ass it was a run. Or a PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongo Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Tigris' timestamp='1326723464' post='1089918'] Reggie motioned a ton and when he did, you could bet your ass it was a run. Or a PA. [/quote] I think that is kind of the point. The Run and Shoot is 4 wide receivers, one running back, and no tight ends. Adding a tight end makes it a K-Gun, Buffalo's offense from that era. Adding a tight end and power running game (with a fullback), makes it not Run and Shoot at all... The original statement that Brat runs a Houston like Run and Shoot totally didn't jibe with my memories of Houston's offense, so I've been reading up on it a bunch. Brat may have a bit of Run and Shoot in his offense, or even a Run and Shoot formation for special purposes, but that's not the same thing. It's like how Zimmer has some 3 down linemen, but doesn't run a 3-4. Read up on the Run and Shoot. As you do, honestly apply what they're talking about to Bratkowski. You may be able to think of an instance where an element is present, but it'll be the exception to the rule... It's actually really interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooky Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1326721703' post='1089910'] As I previously stated, they played 10 games against top 10 Defenses. They had a Rookie QB and a Rookie #1 WR that didn't have the benefit of any real offseason. The entire Offense had to learn a new system on the fly. They averaged more points and more yards per game than the year prior. And that was with players that had been in the same system for years. Why wouldn't everyone think the Offense will be better with a real offseason and further development from the young players? Getting Shipley back ect? [/quote] The talent should be better with this season's rookies being more experienced. But as far as discussing Gruden's potential, it comes down to play calling. Which was everybody's gripe about Brat. Brat had plenty of talent on his offense. Gruden will have plenty of talent. Will his play calling be more interesting when he has a full off-season to make the offensive schemes more elaborate? I'm playing devils advocate. I'm looking for a reason to believe that Gruden's play calling won't be stale and predictable also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|westside bengal| Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 I have no problem giving Gruden a break for a year or so. I am sure he had some growing to do coming back to the NFL. Plus his 2 biggest playmakers were rookies and trying to get an entire offense on a new page. That is only fair I think. Its not really a complaint but I was a little disappointed towards the end as I expecrted more imagaination from Gruden. It could have just been me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Hooky' timestamp='1326718675' post='1089904'] I know what he's saying. That stat tells you that they're a mediocre offense. And in my first post, I mentioned that I'm aware of Gruden's situation. But his situation doesn't change the fact that they're a mediocre offense. Sure, they had a limited off-season, but they had the whole season to start showing gradual improvement. If anything, they got worse. Again, I'm not saying that he isn't going to be a good OC, I'm just wondering what people saw that gives them optimism. Is the optimism based on pure hope? They replaced Brat, so now the offense will be fixed? [/quote] Rookies often hit a "rookie wall" in late season as the wear and tear of the long NFL season plus all the draft hype before it starts to catch up to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Hooky' timestamp='1326730307' post='1089950'] The talent should be better with this season's rookies being more experienced. But as far as discussing Gruden's potential, it comes down to play calling. Which was everybody's gripe about Brat. Brat had plenty of talent on his offense. Gruden will have plenty of talent. Will his play calling be more interesting when he has a full off-season to make the offensive schemes more elaborate? I'm playing devils advocate. I'm looking for a reason to believe that Gruden's play calling won't be stale and predictable also. [/quote] Since nobody's ever seen any of it, his stale and predictable will seem shiny and new for at least a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 Gruden has already done stuff with his 100-play playbook that I never remember seeing Brat do - flex TE? Formation shifts? Those screens to Hawk? Maybe he did at some point.. Like that WR screen on 3rd and inches, once, maybe.. Gruden called the QB sneak, more than once. Just a different attitude on offense in general, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatcat Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1326747557' post='1090017'] Gruden has already done stuff with his 100-play playbook that I never remember seeing Brat do - flex TE? Formation shifts? Those screens to Hawk? Maybe he did at some point.. Like that WR screen on 3rd and inches, once, maybe.. Gruden called the QB sneak, more than once. Just a different attitude on offense in general, IMO. [/quote] And something as simple as moving your number #1 WR in Chad Johnson to get a favorable matchup would have been a historic change in Brats offense.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CTA513 Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Phatcat' timestamp='1326749982' post='1090028'] And something as simple as moving your number #1 WR in Chad Johnson to get a favorable matchup would have been a historic change in Brats offense.... [/quote] Was that Brats fault or #85s fault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatcat Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='CTA513' timestamp='1326750810' post='1090032'] Was that Brats fault or #85s fault? [/quote] Could be 85 couldn't figure it out. Hard to believe that is the case for a professional athlete as accomplished as Chad was. But honestly I can't sit here and pretend I know one way or the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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