eva4ben-gal Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1326576087' post='1089627'] I agree.. Hobson always said he ran a Coryell offense, but I would consider it more of a "run and shoot" with a little TE sprinkled in mostly for pass protection... [/quote] Yeah it reminded me of the offense Moon ran in Houston with lots of downfield passing which I guess may have had its roots in the air Coryell offense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Brat was definite more run n shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|High School Harry| Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='scharm' timestamp='1326576940' post='1089630'] Brat was definite more run n shoot. [/quote] I thought he was more shit and fall in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongo Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1326576087' post='1089627'] I agree.. Hobson always said he ran a Coryell offense, but I would consider it more of a "run and shoot" with a little TE sprinkled in mostly for pass protection... [/quote] I don't see it. I thought the Run and Shoot was a lot of pre-snap motion, 3-4 receivers, a single running back who can catch, and very little use of tight ends. Seems the Run and Shoot has more in common with spread offenses than Coryell (or Brat's version of the Coryell)... It was also my understanding that Brat was a fairly straight line student from the Coryell tree, and that his offensive verbiage was also totally Coryell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texbengal Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='High School Harry' timestamp='1326578078' post='1089635'] I thought he was more shit and fall in it. [/quote] Well played. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texbengal Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='The PatternMaster' timestamp='1326572941' post='1089615'] I could see Ocho and Simpson in Jax next year as they will both be free agents.[/quote] I see the Ocho mostly at Mac's, not Jax (and IHOP) next year. I hope he has a nice run in the playoffs and gets a ring, but I think this is it for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='Montana Bengal' timestamp='1326480577' post='1089375'] That reminds me....Thanks again Go for the awesome board! [/quote] I LOL'd! [quote name='VonBlade' timestamp='1326484790' post='1089401'] Me, obviously. Or it might be Neil Gaiman's wife [/quote] I LOL'd again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eva4ben-gal Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='mongo' timestamp='1326578119' post='1089636'] I don't see it. I thought the Run and Shoot was a lot of pre-snap motion, 3-4 receivers, a single running back who can catch, and very little use of tight ends. Seems the Run and Shoot has more in common with spread offenses than Coryell (or Brat's version of the Coryell)... It was also my understanding that Brat was a fairly straight line student from the Coryell tree, and that his offensive verbiage was also totally Coryell. [/quote] Um, the offense you just described sounds like the one we had been watching from Brat so not sure what your point is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongo Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='eva4ben-gal' timestamp='1326579286' post='1089648'] Um, the offense you just described sounds like the one we had been watching from Brat so not sure what your point is [/quote] No, it doesn't. 1. If someone went in motion in Brat's offense (which was not common), it was TJ, and it was because he was going to block on a run. Run and Shoot is motion every play, it's to see what coverage you're getting, and it's almost exclusively a pass. 2. We went single back in Brat's offense rarely, and almost none of them could catch. Usually, it was two backs, with a fullback leading the way. 3. Run and shoot didn't typically have a TE on the field, that's what I meant by little use of TE's. 4. Run and Shoot offenses were insanely pass heavy, with a sprinkling of the run to keep a defense honest. Coryell: 1. Numbered route system 2. Receivers challenging down field 3. Power running 4. QB throwing timed routes to specific spots (hence those TJ and Chad comeback routes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eva4ben-gal Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='mongo' timestamp='1326580570' post='1089649'] No, it doesn't. 1. If someone went in motion in Brat's offense (which was not common), it was TJ, and it was because he was going to block on a run. Run and Shoot is motion every play, it's to see what coverage you're getting, and it's almost exclusively a pass. 2. We went single back in Brat's offense rarely, and almost none of them could catch. Usually, it was two backs, with a fullback leading the way. 3. Run and shoot didn't typically have a TE on the field, that's what I meant by little use of TE's. 4. Run and Shoot offenses were insanely pass heavy, with a sprinkling of the run to keep a defense honest. Coryell: 1. Numbered route system 2. Receivers challenging down field 3. Power running 4. QB throwing timed routes to specific spots (hence those TJ and Chad comeback routes) [/quote] That made more sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='mongo' timestamp='1326580570' post='1089649'] No, it doesn't. 1. If someone went in motion in Brat's offense (which was not common), it was TJ, and it was because he was going to block on a run. Run and Shoot is motion every play, it's to see what coverage you're getting, and it's almost exclusively a pass. 2. We went single back in Brat's offense rarely, and almost none of them could catch. Usually, it was two backs, with a fullback leading the way. 3. Run and shoot didn't typically have a TE on the field, that's what I meant by little use of TE's. 4. Run and Shoot offenses were insanely pass heavy, with a sprinkling of the run to keep a defense honest. Coryell: 1. Numbered route system 2. Receivers challenging down field 3. Power running 4. QB throwing timed routes to specific spots (hence those TJ and Chad comeback routes) [/quote] Coryell is also known for using TE's on deeper routes.. Perry was the perfect HB for Brat's system, and it was obvious he didn't value the FB position. We used TE's mostly to block and not to stretch the field in the vein of another WR.. Run and shoot is born from the Coryell school, so it is also based on a lot of timig routes, but also tends to feature extensive use of WR option routes (which is why we always had so much problem with Ocho and Carson being "on the same page).. IMO Brat's offense is a Run and Shoot with the addition of more use of the TE as an additional lineman foremost and a safety valve. Yhe only reason Brat ran it as much as he did is because Marvin demanded it.. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eva4ben-gal Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hey let's compare peaches and nectarines now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongo Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='Lucid' timestamp='1326581107' post='1089651'] Coryell is also known for using TE's on deeper routes.. Perry was the perfect HB for Brat's system, and it was obvious he didn't value the FB position. We used TE's mostly to block and not to stretch the field in the vein of another WR.. Run and shoot is born from the Coryell school, so it is also based on a lot of timig routes, but also tends to feature extensive use of WR option routes (which is why we always had so much problem with Ocho and Carson being "on the same page).. IMO Brat's offense is a Run and Shoot with the addition of more use of the TE as an additional lineman foremost and a safety valve. Yhe only reason Brat ran it as much as he did is because Marvin demanded it.. IMO [/quote] Again, I don't see it. Luchey and/or Jermemi Johnson were big pieces of all but one of Bratkowski's years here (2010), when they briefly flirted with not having a true FB. Option routes have transitioned to all offenses because it's sound strategy. I think Bratkowski runs a modern Coryell offense, and that part of that modern version includes bits and pieces of evolution from other offenses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='mongo' timestamp='1326582683' post='1089658'] Again, I don't see it. Luchey and/or Jermemi Johnson were big pieces of all but one of Bratkowski's years here (2010), when they briefly flirted with not having a true FB. Option routes have transitioned to all offenses because it's sound strategy. I think Bratkowski runs a modern Coryell offense, and that part of that modern version includes bits and pieces of evolution from other offenses. [/quote] We'll just have to agree to disagree.. If it is an evolved Coryell then it is one that evolved in a similar way Run and Shoot did from the Coryell. I see it more as an evolved Run and Shoot.. But as has been pointed out, we are likely arguing peaches v nectarines here anyway.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='mongo' timestamp='1326582683' post='1089658'] Again, I don't see it. Luchey and/or Jermemi Johnson were big pieces of all but one of Bratkowski's years here (2010), when they briefly flirted with not having a true FB. Option routes have transitioned to all offenses because it's sound strategy. I think Bratkowski runs a modern Coryell offense, and that part of that modern version includes bits and pieces of evolution from other offenses. [/quote] Yeah I was wondering how the FB was a "big part" of his offense when he convinced the team not to even carry one last season? He also seemed determined to have an H-back that doubled as both FB/TE. No idea what his offense was, other than pass-wacky and ineffective. Or as he put it himself "We're pretty much inept." [quote name='High School Harry' timestamp='1326578078' post='1089635'] I thought he was more shit and fall in it. [/quote] Or that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='eva4ben-gal' timestamp='1326575682' post='1089623'] No way in hell lol. I will bet any amount of money that neither gets even a phone call [/quote] If Brat wanted to see Jerome catch a pass he would have put him in the lineup while he was here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='mongo' timestamp='1326578119' post='1089636'] I don't see it. I thought the Run and Shoot was a lot of pre-snap motion, 3-4 receivers, a single running back who can catch, and very little use of tight ends. Seems the Run and Shoot has more in common with spread offenses than Coryell (or Brat's version of the Coryell)... It was also my understanding that Brat was a fairly straight line student from the Coryell tree, and that his offensive verbiage was also totally Coryell. [/quote] I don't think Houston's run and shoot teams even had a TE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='eva4ben-gal' timestamp='1326579286' post='1089648'] Um, the offense you just described sounds like the one we had been watching from Brat so not sure what your point is [/quote] None of our RBs can catch, for one thing. Brat's O had too much power running for true run n shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongo Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1326584211' post='1089663'] Yeah I was wondering how the FB was a "big part" of his offense when he convinced the team not to even carry one last season? He also seemed determined to have an H-back that doubled as both FB/TE. No idea what his offense was, other than pass-wacky and ineffective. Or as he put it himself "We're pretty much inept." [/quote] I'm confused. I don't recall Bratkowski convincing the organization not to have a fullback... Can someone dig it up? I thought we went into 2010 with injuries at fullback, tried to make do with a converted TE, realized it wasn't working, and got Pressley going. A handful of games in the last year of his long tenure doesn't make me believe Bratkowski hated FBs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldcat Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 [quote name='mongo' timestamp='1326585228' post='1089673'] I'm confused. I don't recall Bratkowski convincing the organization not to have a fullback... Can someone dig it up? I thought we went into 2010 with injuries at fullback, tried to make do with a converted TE, realized it wasn't working, and got Pressley going. A handful of games in the last year of his long tenure doesn't make me believe Bratkowski hated FBs. [/quote] Yeah, I don't think it was policy - didn't we even try to get that FB from Minnesota that we liked as an RFA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texbengal Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 [quote name='Oldcat' timestamp='1326585306' post='1089675'] Yeah, I don't think it was policy - didn't we even try to get that FB from Minnesota that we liked as an RFA?[/quote] Tahi, yes. I thought a FB was pretty much a staple in Brats offense. In 2009, they used a lot of 6 OL formations, and sometimes used Coats as a FB. In 2010, they had Pressley at the end of the year but forget what they did before that. 2 TEs, I guess, since Reggie Kelly came back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 [quote name='Oldcat' timestamp='1326584957' post='1089670'] I don't think Houston's run and shoot teams even had a TE. [/quote] They didn't. But they struggled to be consistent, hold a lead, and run the football. So they began to add back a TE. That is what morphed into the spread O that Brat ran. A TE to him was exactly how run and shoot teams used them late in their NFL life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 [quote name='mongo' timestamp='1326585228' post='1089673'] I'm confused. I don't recall Bratkowski convincing the organization not to have a fullback... Can someone dig it up? I thought we went into 2010 with injuries at fullback, tried to make do with a converted TE, realized it wasn't working, and got Pressley going. A handful of games in the last year of his long tenure doesn't make me believe Bratkowski hated FBs. [/quote] You're not wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted January 15, 2012 Report Share Posted January 15, 2012 [quote name='mongo' timestamp='1326585228' post='1089673'] I'm confused. I don't recall Bratkowski convincing the organization not to have a fullback... Can someone dig it up? I thought we went into 2010 with injuries at fullback, tried to make do with a converted TE, realized it wasn't working, and got Pressley going. A handful of games in the last year of his long tenure doesn't make me believe Bratkowski hated FBs. [/quote] I don't know what Brat said behind the scenes or if he truly felt this, but publicly Brat said a few times that he felt comfortable going without a FB and using TE's as H-backs instead to save a roster spot. That was the year you saw Coates basically the FB/TE hybrid which did not go well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooky Posted January 16, 2012 Report Share Posted January 16, 2012 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1326468600' post='1089301'] he's not saying you didn't watch games. He's saying you can't just look at the stats and not factor in the circumstances of the situation. [/quote] I know what he's saying. That stat tells you that they're a mediocre offense. And in my first post, I mentioned that I'm aware of Gruden's situation. But his situation doesn't change the fact that they're a mediocre offense. Sure, they had a limited off-season, but they had the whole season to start showing gradual improvement. If anything, they got worse. Again, I'm not saying that he isn't going to be a good OC, I'm just wondering what people saw that gives them optimism. Is the optimism based on pure hope? They replaced Brat, so now the offense will be fixed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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