Looking at the INT's so far

[Bengals1181]

Here's a look at how the 15 INT's break down so far, and if there are any trends:

 

 

 

chicago 1:  picked on a slant, consensus seems to be AJ ran a lazy route

chicago 2:  AJ dropped it and it bounced up in the air

Green Bay:  bad location, threw it behind AJ on an out route

Cleveland:  tipped pass of a zone read sitdown.  can argue it should have been caught, can argue pass could have been a little better

New England:  bad decision not to throw it away while scrambling

Buffalo:  bad read.  never saw the safety in the middle of the field

Jets: fluky play, great play by the defender

Miami 1:  per gruden and green, AJ ran his route wrong

Miami 2:  bad throw by Dalton throwing behind the WR on the out route

Miami 3:  drop by Sanu

Baltimore 1:  (the order may be off on these three)  overthrew Aj on a post route.  may or may not have been wind aided

Baltimore 2: overthrew Eifert.  per Eifert, Dalton said it sailed on him, but it looked like they weren't on same page

Baltimore 3:  Marvin Jones got it ripped out of his hands

Cleveland 1:  per AJ, he ran his route wrong and cut in when he should have cut out.

Cleveland 2:  bad read by Dalton, there were 2 guys between aj and the flight of the ball on an out route

 

 

 

Luckily, only 2 of the 15 have been "bad reads".  That means Dalton isn't getting confused a lot and bodes well going forward.  

 

Some common trends:

 

Dalton throwing late on out routes.  That accounts for 3 of the 15.

 

AJ's route running/defensive recognition accounts for 3 of the 15.

 

3 of the 15 were on drops (I'm counting the jones rip as a drop) by receivers

 

8 of the 15 INT's were intended for AJ Green

 

3 of the 15 were intended for Eifert

 

2 of the 15 intended for Jones

 

1 each intended for Gio and Sanu.  

 

routes:

 

slants:  2

zone sitdowns: 3

out routes:  3

seam route:  3

scramble play:  1

fluke (jets):  1

comeback route:  1 (1st in miami that many think was an out because AJ ran it wrong)

post route:  1

 

 

By fault:  

 

Dalton 9

AJ 4

Sanu 1

Jones 1

 

 

Of Dalton's 9:

 

bad throws:  5

bad reads: 2

bad decisions:  2

 

Of the other 6:  

 

drops: 3

bad routes: 3

[coup000]

AJ really is not having the type of year I would have expected from him in year 3. Great stats but he has been completely eliminated multiple times and made some really back breaking drops, misreads etc.

[Bengals1181]

since a couple have been on zone/option routes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason Witten, Master of the Option Route By Chris Brown on  August 7, 2013 11:30 AM ET

 

JIM MCISAAC/GETTY IMAGES

For years, the Cowboys have been nothing if not erratic. Whether it’s quarterback Tony Romo's on-field inconsistencies, the vacillations of owner Jerry Jones, or the propensity of a very smart head coach (Jason Garrett is a Princeton grad who scored a 36 on the Wonderlic test) to make silly in-game decisions, Dallas has all too often seemed like a team that just cannot get out of its own way.

The exception — the Cowboys' one consistent bright spot over the last several years — has been tight end Jason Witten. Witten has caught more than 90 passes in four of the last six seasons, including 110 last year, despite battling injuries and having to catch passes from both Good Tony Romo and Bad Tony Romo. Witten is not the vertical threat he once was, as his yards per catch dipped below 10 last year for the first time since his rookie season. But his game is like a veteran NBA power forward: working the underneath areas, always hitting the open 15-footer, and making up for what he lacks in raw speed with an incredible combination of power, balance, and practiced, nuanced agility.

What makes Witten special is how he uses a natural knack for getting open at football’s highest level. It’s a backyard principle that he’s made work in the NFL, primarily with what is known as an option route. As its name implies, receivers on an option route don’t just run x-many yards and simply break in or out. Instead, they have several choices within the same play, all depending on what the defense does. For the Cowboys, Witten’s “routes” are often a suggestion: Just get open.

Although hardly new, option routes and related route conversions have only recently come to dominate NFL offenses. The vaunted West Coast offense was the most popular attack in the league for roughly two decades and gave receivers relatively little flexibility to adjust to defenses. Those offenses still feature the ideals of Bill Walsh’s creation, but almost every pass play in the NFL sees at least one receiver — and often two or more — reading the defense and adjusting his route on the fly.

While many offenses feature route conversions that require three or four receivers each reading the coverage and making a decision based on specific keys, Witten does most of his damage with the original read-the-defense pass play — the option route. Compared to route conversions, an option route is actually pretty basic: The outside receivers run some sort of deep or clear-out route while an inside receiver, such as a running back or tight end like Witten, is given plenty of freedom to get open underneath.

Despite its backyard beginnings, there are specific coaching points on an option route. The first thing Witten must do is identify the defender over him and attack that defender's leverage on his release from the line, typically by running directly at him. By running right at that defender — which is usually a linebacker or safety — Witten forces the defense to reveal how it is playing him. There are basically two things that can happen: The defense will either play zone or man-to-man. This does not always mean that what Witten identifies is literally what the defense has called, particularly in an NFL with increasingly complicated coverages, but by classifying them this way Witten is able to cut through the confusion and defeat whatever technique he faces.

If the defense is in a zone, Witten will release to between eight and 10 yards, turn away from the nearest zone defender, and then turn to the quarterback. Against man coverage, Witten will run right at the defender — the coaching point is to try to "step on the defender's toes" — to make the defender think Witten is going deep, and then break inside or outside depending on the defender's leverage.

Although the Cowboys' loss to the Giants last fall was an ugly, bizarre affair — Romo threw three first-half interceptions as Dallas fell behind 23-0, before the Cowboys ultimately squandered a brief 24-23 fourth-quarter lead — Witten put on an option route clinic en route to catching an incredible 18 passes. In the second quarter, the Cowboys lined up in a three-receiver, one–tight end set, with Witten to the right. The Giants, meanwhile, ran a Tampa Two coverage, in which two safeties drop deep to the outside while the middle linebacker drops deep to the middle.

On this play, although the defense is in zone, the linebacker plays Witten so far inside that Witten basically treats it like man-to-man and breaks open to the outside. The other defenders have been run off, and it's an easy throw for Romo on a night when not much was easy.

Later in the game, the Cowboys came back to the option route, only this time the Giants played Cover Two Man, with two safeties deep and everyone else playing man coverage underneath. Going against a nickel defensive back, Witten ends up with inside leverage, so he plants his foot and breaks inside.

From the end zone angle you can see how Witten releases outside, directly at his defender, and gets him to move his feet. This sets the nickel back up for the inside break Witten makes at the top of the route. Once Witten has broken inside, he's in full power forward mode: The defender is simply boxed out from having any chance at making a play. Witten has become a master at the subtle techniques of making this multifaceted route work.

Option routes can only be coached so much. There have been prolific receivers who struggle with them, and there have been others who were otherwise middle-of-the-pack players but excelled at just getting open. A receiver is either a natural option route runner or he's not. Witten is a natural, as Garrett said recently, and I have little doubt that talent — among his others — will one day land him in the Hall of Fame.

 

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/70704/jason-witten-master-of-the-option-route

[HairOnFire]

fluke (jets):  1

 

Can't really call it a fluke considering how many of Dalton's passes are deflected/blocked by defensive lineman.

[Bengals1181]

 

Can't really call it a fluke considering how many of Dalton's passes are deflected/blocked by defensive lineman.

 

 

yea but he wasn't under center for that one.  he was on the run trying to fit it between 2 guys.  It was tipped 2 or 3 times before it was caught.

 

 

Not quite the same as the normal tipped passes.

[eva4ben-gal]

 
 
yea but he wasn't under center for that one.  he was on the run trying to fit it between 2 guys.  It was tipped 2 or 3 times before it was caught.
 
 
Not quite the same as the normal tipped passes.

I would call that a bad pass by Dalton on a screen, but nice breakdown showing the different reasons interceptions happen. Most here will choose to ignore it but I appreciate the effort.

[Bengals1181]

I would call that a bad pass by Dalton on a screen, but nice breakdown showing the different reasons interceptions happen. Most here will choose to ignore it but I appreciate the effort.

 

 

thanks.  yea I guess you could call it a bad pass instead of a bad decision.  It was a screen and the OL was already setting up their blocks, so its not like he could legally throw it to anyone else.  His only options were throw it to Gio or tuck it and run.  

[|kennethmw|]

Does anyone know where to get statistics on how many balls are tipped?  I see people talking about Andy, but it seems like they are up all over the league.  I can't seem to find any statistics, though.

[Bengals1181]

Does anyone know where to get statistics on how many balls are tipped?  I see people talking about Andy, but it seems like they are up all over the league.  I can't seem to find any statistics, though.

 

 

I think PFF has them.  Dalton and Rodgers are near the top.

[|kennethmw|]

 

 

I think PFF has them.  Dalton and Rodgers are near the top.

 

I couldn't find them on there.  If you do, would you post a link?

[Bengals1181]

 

I couldn't find them on there.  If you do, would you post a link?

 

 

I'll take a look, but its likely in the paid part of the site.  

[Squirrlnutz]

I get frustrated by the lack of some bread and butter plays for the offense when they are in a funk. Coming into the game the offense had been struggling and we follow up a 3 and out with a pick. At this point where are the plays that take some of the thinking out of the process? Something that's a "go-to" where there is little if any risk of the qb and the WR not being on the same page? Look at the second INT last week. Hayden is a dozen yards or more off the LOS and we run a deeper route right at him instead of a quick screenfor 5 yards like we did time and time again against PIT with off coverage.

AD needs to get his head out of his ass soon but the offense as a whole needs to get more consistent as well. When the run game is opening up lanes and WRs/TEs are making routine plays, Andy tends to play within himself and the offense operates as its designed. When we're in a funk he forces throws and he is not quite good enough to get away with it. There is still lots of time to heat up across the board. If we can string 3 good performances in a row heading into the playoffs I'll feel good about our chances in a home playoff game despite the negative vibe of late.

[coup000]

I would call that a bad pass by Dalton on a screen, but nice breakdown showing the different reasons interceptions happen. Most here will choose to ignore it but I appreciate the effort.

I said it then and I'll say it now...Dalton saw the DT there and attempted to alter his throwing motion to get it by him. Wilkerson made an incredibly athletic play to stop his momentum and get his trailing arm on the ball....what happened from there was pure luck and coincedence.

[alleycat]

One thing that I notice somewhat with Rogers and MUCH more with Brees (and Russel Wilson, who is even sHORTER), is how much they have designed roll outs and bootlegs.  The batted balls problem is significant, and you'd think we'd be designing some plays around it (Dalton also needs to work on setting up throwing lanes, though his lineman could also clearly do more to be on the same page  - i.e. drive block the guys knees if it's going to be a quick slant).

[Bengals1181]

One thing that I notice somewhat with Rogers and MUCH more with Brees (and Russel Wilson, who is even sHORTER), is how much they have designed roll outs and bootlegs.  The batted balls problem is significant, and you'd think we'd be designing some plays around it (Dalton also needs to work on setting up throwing lanes, though his lineman could also clearly do more to be on the same page  - i.e. drive block the guys knees if it's going to be a quick slant).

 

 

definitely agree on the bootlegs.  There was only one against Cleveland.  There may have been one against Baltimore, but I'm not sure.  Definitely no more than one.  Not sure about Miami.

 

Flacco ran 4 or 5 against the Bengals and they were the only plays they really had success on.  I wish Gruden would have followed suit.  

[Bengals1181]

 

I couldn't find them on there.  If you do, would you post a link?

 

 

no luck yet, but I did just find this gem of a link:  http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/leaders.htm

[NASTYNATI]

 
 
no luck yet, but I did just find this gem of a link:  http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2013/leaders.htm

The very fact Dalton has attempted the second most passes (410) in the league further proves Gruden is a moron... Not to get off topic but damn... That is way too many pass attempts.

[eva4ben-gal]

I said it then and I'll say it now...Dalton saw the DT there and attempted to alter his throwing motion to get it by him. Wilkerson made an incredibly athletic play to stop his momentum and get his trailing arm on the ball....what happened from there was pure luck and coincedence.

Throw should have been high over the linemen, he had room to lead Gio but he made a bad throw trying to thread the needle. Bad choice, bad throw, whatever you call it there was an easy way to avoid that one.

[Bengals1181]

The very fact Dalton has attempted the second most passes (410) in the league further proves Gruden is a moron... Not to get off topic but damn... That is way too many pass attempts.

 

 

part of that is the late bye week, but yea I agree they aren't balanced enough.

[-GoBengals-]

The very fact Dalton has attempted the second most passes (410) in the league further proves Gruden is a moron... Not to get off topic but damn... That is way too many pass attempts.

 

as others pointed out there arent many QB who havent already had their BYE. so he is an entire game ahead. there are 10 QB's withon 40 attempts or less of him. that stat is completely irrelevant until week 13.

 

secondly, unless you are completely wasted at all times, its pretty obvious that we use the short pass game as a surrogate run game in many situations, the bubble screens, wr step backs, delay screens, if you would like to pick any top 5 QB, i will gladly run stats on the coming weeks game on how many passes andy throws at or behind the LOS and compare it to any top QB of your choosing...

 

in closing, the fact that this thread exists proves the level of delusion people have about dalton and his ability.... as if he is in magical situations where only HIS int;s were totally not always completely his fault, no way any other QB has the same situations...give me a fucking break.

 

and the fact that you made this comment proves you have no intention of using reality(# of games played, # of games we got behind early, etc) or common sense facts in judging the OC....but why bother? its clear we have a best ever super accurate down field passer franchise QB on our hands who the OC just doesnt wanna use... totally....thats totally it... what a MORON the OC is...

[T-Dub]

 

as others pointed out there arent many QB who havent already had their BYE. so he is an entire game ahead. there are 10 QB's withon 40 attempts or less of him. that stat is completely irrelevant until week 13.

 

Bye weeks have no affect on attempts per game. 

[Bengals1181]

 

as others pointed out there arent many QB who havent already had their BYE. so he is an entire game ahead. there are 10 QB's withon 40 attempts or less of him. that stat is completely irrelevant until week 13.

 

secondly, unless you are completely wasted at all times, its pretty obvious that we use the short pass game as a surrogate run game in many situations, the bubble screens, wr step backs, delay screens, if you would like to pick any top 5 QB, i will gladly run stats on the coming weeks game on how many passes andy throws at or behind the LOS and compare it to any top QB of your choosing...

 

 

 

 

have at it chief.  It would be quite beneficial for you.  

 

Ironic that you want to do this, considering I've posted for you at least 5 times the stats from 2012 that disprove this "theory", yet you've conveniently never responded to them....

 

Hey, here they are for a 6th time for you to ignore:

 

 

here's the percentages of passes thrown less than 10yds by various QB's in the league:

 

 

 

 

Flacco - 64%  (342 passes)

Ryan - 65% (408 passes)

Dalton - 69% (367 passes)

Brady - 69% (441 passes)

Brees - 67% (449 passes)

Palmer - 64% (363 passes)

Eli - 60% (326 passes)

Peyton - 64% (375 passes)

Newton - 57% (280 passes)

Ben - 64% (288 passes)

Wilson - 62% (245 passes)

Luck - 58% (365 passes)

Rivers - 66% (351 passes)

Cutler - 62% (263 passes)

Schaub - 70% (381 passes)

Rodgers - 68% (378 passes)

RGIII - 69% (273 passes)

Romo - 68% (442 passes)

Stafford - 64% (468 passes)

[T-Dub]

Don't forget the part where AD had more 40+ yard completions than anyone in the league - some of them were on screens though so he's a fraud.

 

If anyone can explain to me why I'm supposed to care how many deep passes our QB throws that'd be helpful.

 

$1 says we re-re-re-re-re-re-re-recommit to "run the ball more effectively" again this offseason.

[alleycat]

 

as others pointed out there arent many QB who havent already had their BYE. so he is an entire game ahead. there are 10 QB's withon 40 attempts or less of him. that stat is completely irrelevant until week 13.

 

secondly, unless you are completely wasted at all times, its pretty obvious that we use the short pass game as a surrogate run game in many situations, the bubble screens, wr step backs, delay screens, if you would like to pick any top 5 QB, i will gladly run stats on the coming weeks game on how many passes andy throws at or behind the LOS and compare it to any top QB of your choosing...

 

in closing, the fact that this thread exists proves the level of delusion people have about dalton and his ability.... as if he is in magical situations where only HIS int;s were totally not always completely his fault, no way any other QB has the same situations...give me a fucking break.

 

and the fact that you made this comment proves you have no intention of using reality(# of games played, # of games we got behind early, etc) or common sense facts in judging the OC....but why bother? its clear we have a best ever super accurate down field passer franchise QB on our hands who the OC just doesnt wanna use... totally....thats totally it... what a MORON the OC is...

 

Actually, if you knew more than you did, which is apparently quite a little, you would understand that the short passing game, which you accurately identified as a surrogate run game, often has less to do with a QB's limitations than the Offensive Line's.  If the short game can be effective, be it run or pass, you are forcing defenses to stretch vertically - which will loosen up the intermediate to deep portion of the field.  However, if your line has been relatively unable to get much push in the running game (or you have an OC that is rushing it 282 vs 410 passes in the AFC freaking North) the short passing game can attempt to create the same dynamic. 

 

Another way to counter your logic would be this:  If Andy Dalton is so terrible, as you say, and the OC is not to blame, why in the hell are we passing 45% more than we are running?

 

The hilarious thing is that you are just as guilty as the same blinded, agenda driven bias that you are accusing others of.  And if you ARE just trying to stimulate page hits, why not come up with something a little more creative?  At least give us the option to put you on ignore, as your tripe is becoming all to monotonous in its predictability.

[T-Dub]

Another way to counter your logic would be this:  If Andy Dalton is so terrible, as you say, and the OC is not to blame, why in the hell are we passing 45% more than we are running?

 

 

Because we hadn't had our bye week yet, obviously

 

 

:ninja: