Jamie_B Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 4 points that shouldn't have changed the game from a running based game to a passing based game. No disagreement, but that's not what caused Dalton to turn the ball over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubdub Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Big time players/people show up in big games/toughest times... Don't think that describes Dalton, Marvin Lewis, and it kills me to say it but AJ Green too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nati Ice Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I still can't get over the shock of the 4th and 3 play. As soon as I saw Dalton prepare to throw the ball deep, I shouted OH NO! That was the worse fucking play call I've ever seen. We have two first round tight ends, Gio, and Hawkins, but instead we go for it all on fourth down? Unbelievable. Yup. All I could do was imagine what must be going through Jay's overreacting mind... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 No disagreement, but that's not what caused Dalton to turn the ball over. :facepalm: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 :facepalm: Right back at ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Big time players/people show up in big games/toughest times... Don't think that describes Dalton, Marvin Lewis, and it kills me to say it but AJ Green too Defensive coordinators are not paid huge money to sit on their hands. They are all defending against AJ with a safety over the top. Almost every pass to him is either a long bomb over the top or a short out pattern to the sideline. When he runs across or down the middle, he knows the ball is NOT coming his way regardless of how open he is. The fact that we throw very few medium length routes down the middle makes it much easier to cover AJ as the safety is not stepping up to stop the play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah15 Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Defensive coordinators are not paid huge money to sit on their hands. They are all defending against AJ with a safety over the top. Almost every pass to him is either a long bomb over the top or a short out pattern to the sideline. When he runs across or down the middle, he knows the ball is NOT coming his way regardless of how open he is. The fact that we throw very few medium length routes down the middle makes it much easier to cover AJ as the safety is not stepping up to stop the play. Finally a man with sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Yes we were losing by 4 points, points that you cant come back from if you keep turning the ball over. Yes you are correct there. But once again on the next two drives after going down 4, the line collapsed forcing third downs an the line collapsed on those third downs. Now dalton should have thrown the ball away and we should have punted. But they would then have had two drives to have a chance to add to their lead. Obviously they had great field position after the turnovers, but our d wasn't really stopping them so they likely would have scored the 6 points they got anyways. Don't get me wrong, the turnovers and change in field position due to the turnovers are on dalton. But the lack of opportunities to get points on those two drives is on the oline. If you go back and rewatch those two drives, there is no denying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Yes you are correct there. But once again on the next two drives after going down 4, the line collapsed forcing third downs an the line collapsed on those third downs. Now dalton should have thrown the ball away and we should have punted. But they would then have had two drives to have a chance to add to their lead. Obviously they had great field position after the turnovers, but our d wasn't really stopping them so they likely would have scored the 6 points they got anyways. Don't get me wrong, the turnovers and change in field position due to the turnovers are on dalton. But the lack of opportunities to get points on those two drives is on the oline. If you go back and rewatch those two drives, there is no denying it. Our D wasn't stopping them? Like they did on 1st and goal, 2nd and goal and 3rd and goal? After SD took over at the Bengals 3 yd line? After Harrison got a personal foul, half the distance penalty....taking them to the 1.5 yd line. That kinda stop you talking about? Re-read your 2nd paragraph.....is that really the position you're taking? Seriously? There is no denying the line performed poorly, below their standard, but there simply is no excusing the turnovers. You ever hear of momentum? You ever hear of the phrase "the life got sucked out of the team after that INT"? It effects things....WAY MORE than you're willing to admit. And what about the intense pressure he was facing on the INT to Ingram, intended for Eifert? There wasn't pressure or a line breakdown..Gruden didnt tell him to throw the INT and AJ didn't give up on the play....that was simply a Dalton breakdown. As happens far too often for my liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Yes you are correct there. But once again on the next two drives after going down 4, the line collapsed forcing third downs an the line collapsed on those third downs. Now dalton should have thrown the ball away and we should have punted. But they would then have had two drives to have a chance to add to their lead. Obviously they had great field position after the turnovers, but our d wasn't really stopping them so they likely would have scored the 6 points they got anyways. Don't get me wrong, the turnovers and change in field position due to the turnovers are on dalton. But the lack of opportunities to get points on those two drives is on the oline. If you go back and rewatch those two drives, there is no denying it. Any time you get the kind of field position they got after those turn overs and your D holds them to 3, that's a win for the D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubdub Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 . When he runs across or down the middle, he knows the ball is NOT coming his way regardless of how open he is. The fact that we throw very few medium length routes down the middle makes it much easier to cover AJ as the safety is not stepping up to stop the play. That man is looking for the ball on any and every route he runs. Even if he is the last option you have to be prepared. He is a phenom, most talented wr beside maybe Megatron, but come on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 That man is looking for the ball on any and every route he runs. Even if he is the last option you have to be prepared. He is a phenom, most talented wr beside maybe Megatron, but come on... I have been to enough games this year to see the utter frustration on his face. He gets separation all the time but Andy simply doesn't make that smaller window 15 to 25 yard pass downfield very often. When he does, its typically to a guy sitting in space and STATIONARY. Just watch the Patriots to understand my point. Decker catches so many passes 15 to 25 yards downfield in full stride its maddening unless you are a Patsie fan. Same thing with Graham at New Orleans. I remember the one slant pass to Hawkins earlier this year and about did a a back flip. Perfect pass with Hawkins in full stride which allowed him to do his thing. So few and far in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 Our D wasn't stopping them? Like they did on 1st and goal, 2nd and goal and 3rd and goal? After SD took over at the Bengals 3 yd line? After Harrison got a personal foul, half the distance penalty....taking them to the 1.5 yd line. That kinda stop you talking about? Re-read your 2nd paragraph.....is that really the position you're taking? Seriously? There is no denying the line performed poorly, below their standard, but there simply is no excusing the turnovers. You ever hear of momentum? You ever hear of the phrase "the life got sucked out of the team after that INT"? It effects things....WAY MORE than you're willing to admit. And what about the intense pressure he was facing on the INT to Ingram, intended for Eifert? There wasn't pressure or a line breakdown..Gruden didnt tell him to throw the INT and AJ didn't give up on the play....that was simply a Dalton breakdown. As happens far too often for my liking. I don't have time to respond to all of this, although I do appreciate a legit response instead of just sarcastic bs. I guess my main point though is that if the line kept playing like they did, I don't have confidence that we would have been able to put a TD drive together even without the turnovers. They weren't giving dalton a chance in the third quarter. Does it excuse the turnovers? No. Did the turnovers take a game that was a possible win into a loss? Yes. Was there still a good chance we lose that game even with Andy's turnovers? IMO yes. The oline collapsed and it's hard to Get a long td drive together when your oline can't block. None of this excuses Andy. His turnovers were the nail in the coffin. But I guess I'm just not as certain that we win that game without his turnovers as some of you are. Doesn't make me right or wrong, just a difference of opinion. Take rivers and dalton out of the equation and the way the other 44 guys played on each team, their 44 played better. And I don't think it's close when it comes to coaching. Sd out coached us for sure. Unfortunately we don't have a qb that can make up those differences like some teams do. Problem is most teams don't. If you can find me one that can then I'll be all for replacing dalton with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange 'n Black Posted January 6, 2014 Report Share Posted January 6, 2014 I don't have time to respond to all of this, although I do appreciate a legit response instead of just sarcastic bs. I guess my main point though is that if the line kept playing like they did, I don't have confidence that we would have been able to put a TD drive together even without the turnovers. They weren't giving dalton a chance in the third quarter. Does it excuse the turnovers? No. Did the turnovers take a game that was a possible win into a loss? Yes. Was there still a good chance we lose that game even with Andy's turnovers? IMO yes. The oline collapsed and it's hard to Get a long td drive together when your oline can't block. None of this excuses Andy. His turnovers were the nail in the coffin. But I guess I'm just not as certain that we win that game without his turnovers as some of you are. Doesn't make me right or wrong, just a difference of opinion. Take rivers and dalton out of the equation and the way the other 44 guys played on each team, their 44 played better. And I don't think it's close when it comes to coaching. Sd out coached us for sure. Unfortunately we don't have a qb that can make up those differences like some teams do. Problem is most teams don't. If you can find me one that can then I'll be all for replacing dalton with him. X2 to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randle P McMurphy Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Sorry Ken, I like you but you are wrong here. Dalton cost us that game by himself. Can't make ANY throws when you're running for your life the second the ball is snapped!! Even if your last name is Manning or Brady! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Can't make ANY throws when you're running for your life the second the ball is snapped!! Even if your last name is Manning or Brady! On his fumble nobody touched him (if they had it wouldnt have been a fumble) On his 1st int someone was coming but he had time to make a better decision and throw it out of bounds On his 2nd int nobody was coming, it was a bad throw and bad decision. Yes the Oline played badly yesterday, but none of that is an excuse for why Dalton was as bad as he was. He is not a big game QB, he just isnt, he shrinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwing Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 Our D wasn't stopping them? Like they did on 1st and goal, 2nd and goal and 3rd and goal? After SD took over at the Bengals 3 yd line? After Harrison got a personal foul, half the distance penalty....taking them to the 1.5 yd line. That kinda stop you talking about? Re-read your 2nd paragraph.....is that really the position you're taking? Seriously? There is no denying the line performed poorly, below their standard, but there simply is no excusing the turnovers. You ever hear of momentum? You ever hear of the phrase "the life got sucked out of the team after that INT"? It effects things....WAY MORE than you're willing to admit. And what about the intense pressure he was facing on the INT to Ingram, intended for Eifert? There wasn't pressure or a line breakdown..Gruden didnt tell him to throw the INT and AJ didn't give up on the play....that was simply a Dalton breakdown. As happens far too often for my liking. Agreed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 On his fumble nobody touched him (if they had it wouldnt have been a fumble) On his 1st int someone was coming but he had time to make a better decision and throw it out of bounds On his 2nd int nobody was coming, it was a bad throw and bad decision. I agree with most of the above. The oline didnt cause the turnovers. BUT, the oline did cause those drives to stall, which is important to consider as well. Now Dalton instead of letting the drive stall, forced things and caused turnovers which is really bad, but the reason we didnt put up points in those drives (at least the first two) were due to the oline, not dalton. Dalton just compounded the issue in a very negative way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 I agree with most of the above. The oline didnt cause the turnovers. BUT, the oline did cause those drives to stall, which is important to consider as well. Now Dalton instead of letting the drive stall, forced things and caused turnovers which is really bad, but the reason we didnt put up points in those drives (at least the first two) were due to the oline, not dalton. Dalton just compounded the issue in a very negative way. How on earth does the oline cause Andy to fumble? yes he was running out of the pocket due to the oline but he is completely responsible for that fumble. How does the oline cause him to not throw the ball out of bounds when he had time to do so? Watch the replay, yes a guy was coming but he had time to make the throw, and as such had time to throw it out of bounds. The 3rd one isnt even really debatable it was a bad throw and he had nobody coming on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 How on earth does the oline cause Andy to fumble? yes he was running out of the pocket due to the oline but he is completely responsible for that fumble. How does the oline cause him to not throw the ball out of bounds when he had time to do so? Watch the replay, yes a guy was coming but he had time to make the throw, and as such had time to throw it out of bounds. The 3rd one isnt even really debatable it was a bad throw and he had nobody coming on him. Dude, read it again and then reply. I said the oline DIDNT cause the turnovers. As you said, he should have thrown the ball away on the first one or slide, and yes he should have thrown the ball away on teh second one. But both of those would have resulted in punts. Punts are obviously better than turnovers, but it doesnt change the fact that the oline caused the drives to stall. Oline caused the drives to stall. Dalton caused those drives to end in turnovers instead of punts. The oline is what cost us points on those two drives, the turnovers by Dalton gave the other team points. Both parties to blame here. And im specifically talking about the first two turnovers by andy, the third was flat out his fault and on first or second down, so no excuses for that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 How does an oline cause a drive to stall on a turnover? The turnover is what causes it to stall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 How does an oline cause a drive to stall on a turnover? The turnover is what causes it to stall. CAUSE THE FIRST TWO TURNOVERS WERE ON THIRD DOWN. Throwing the ball away, like you are asking him to do, means the drive would have stalled. How do you not get this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 I don't have time to respond to all of this, although I do appreciate a legit response instead of just sarcastic bs. I guess my main point though is that if the line kept playing like they did, I don't have confidence that we would have been able to put a TD drive together even without the turnovers. They weren't giving dalton a chance in the third quarter. Does it excuse the turnovers? No. Did the turnovers take a game that was a possible win into a loss? Yes. Was there still a good chance we lose that game even with Andy's turnovers? IMO yes. The oline collapsed and it's hard to Get a long td drive together when your oline can't block. None of this excuses Andy. His turnovers were the nail in the coffin. But I guess I'm just not as certain that we win that game without his turnovers as some of you are. Doesn't make me right or wrong, just a difference of opinion. Take rivers and dalton out of the equation and the way the other 44 guys played on each team, their 44 played better. And I don't think it's close when it comes to coaching. Sd out coached us for sure. Unfortunately we don't have a qb that can make up those differences like some teams do. Problem is most teams don't. If you can find me one that can then I'll be all for replacing dalton with him. The key to the game was to not turn the ball over......it was OBVIOUS to see that SD is an inferior team and just as long as there are no turnovers, the Bengals will win the game. To say that we wouldn't have won the game even without turning it over is just a ridiculous statement IMO and shows how far you're willing to go to absolve Dalton, no matter how many times you state that Dalton is to blame. This is basic football man, come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 CAUSE THE FIRST TWO TURNOVERS WERE ON THIRD DOWN. Throwing the ball away, like you are asking him to do, means the drive would have stalled. How do you not get this? But it would have allowed for a punt, that maybe could have been fumbled, giving the Bengals excellent field position instead of SD the ball on an INT at the Bengals 3 yd line. Turnover.....changes momentum of game. KILLS the spirit of opposing team. Have you played football? Turnovers are the devil. Even if it wasn't fumbled, the D played fairly well yesterday and has all year. No reason to think they couldn't stop SD. Like they did from the 1.5 yd line after Harrison's stupid, dumb, idiotic facemask penalty. You're making SO many assumptions in trying to absolve Dalton with fictitious scenarios where 2 INTs and a fumble don't have any bearing on a game. THAT'S why it's hard to post seriously. Because are we truly trying to have an honest discussion or look for things to back up our assertions? When Dalton played well this year, I gave him full credit...didn't make up scenarios where credit would be deflected from Dalton onto whatever else. Just as people should admit when he has a shitty game, and now, 3 shitty playoff games. And the "I didn't do enough to get it done" comment was after a full day of the Bengals and Dalton being blasted by media by not accepting responsibility. Jack Brennan instructed Dalton to subtly accept blame, as not to go full out and make it obvious he's accepting blame due to the media pressure. He fucked up, he didn't accept responsibility...... That the type of guy you want leading your football team? One who simply can't get it done when it counts, then makes excuses for himself and tries to lift himself up with "I definitely think I've progressed as a QB". Did you see how anxious he was to answer that question vs the ones asking him to accept responsibility? Not the dude I want leading one of, if not the most talented rosters in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bgal Posted January 7, 2014 Report Share Posted January 7, 2014 CAUSE THE FIRST TWO TURNOVERS WERE ON THIRD DOWN. Throwing the ball away, like you are asking him to do, means the drive would have stalled. How do you not get this? Just let it go. Jamie never actually understands things and posts completely false information consistently. According to him, Dalton somehow blew a 10 point lead in a game where we never had a 10 point lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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