Roster Reset: AFC North

[JBandJoeyV]

Except the NFL doesn't agree because his Bess' career is simply over. And he didn't do shit on the field last year, when fully healthy. It isn't nearly as "simple" as you'd like it to be. Using career stats to support an argument for a player being a downgrade is ridiculous, if that were the case we should try to get Ray Lewis out of retirement to take over for Burfict, as he's clearly the more accomplished player.

The point isn't who is better now, the point is who was better going into their respective seasons. If we are comparing the browns going into 2014 compared to the browns going into 2013, then we have to compare hawk going into 2014 compared to bess going into 2013. Bess going into 2013 is the better play than hawk going into 2014.

With that being said, if you are comparing the pre offseason browns to the post offseason browns, then yes hawk is an upgrade.

1181s point is it isn't an upgrade over what the team looked like going into 2013. Or at least how I interpreted his point.

[Bengals1181]

 

1181 isn't trying to compare 2014 Bess to 2014 Hawkins. 2014 Bess is done and we all know that.

 

The comparison is 2013 Bess to 2014 Hawkins and it's hard to argue talent wise that Hawkins brings any more to the table this year than Bess did last year. Therefore, at best it's a replacement and not an upgrade.

 

 

I really don't get why its such a difficult thing to grasp.

 

Hawkins:  86 career receptions, 995yds, 4 TD's

Bess: 363 career receptions, 3,809yds, 14 TD's.

 

Hawkins' career year was 51 receptions for 533yds.  Bess has had 51 catches in 5 of his 6 seasons.  The lone exception was last year with the Browns.  Bess has eclipsed 533yds in 5 of his 6 seasons.  The one exception was last year with the Browns. 

 

 

It's blatantly clear that Bess is the better WR.

[Jamie_B]

 

 

yes, because comparing a WR to a WR is apples to oranges.   :lol:

 

 

There you go again Captain Disingenuous. It's non sequitur. Comparing a #2 WR on a less than talented WR corp of the Browns vs a #4 on a deeper team than the Browns had is indeed apples to oranges because OF COURSE the #2 is going to have more yards/TDs by the very nature of being a #2, anyone attempting to make any argument using that kind of stats is simply being disingenuous. Fact is until Hawkins gets the chance to show what he can do as a #2 comparing them using stats is useless, but you already knew that.

[scharm]

Comparing melons to gourds.


End of the day Cleveland's offense is still going to be around what it produced last year points and yards unless they get the QB spot completely right.

Hawkins is just a cog player. He's not an engine. Could get drafted over in a couple of weeks.

[coup000]

 

 

I really don't get why its such a difficult thing to grasp.

 

Hawkins:  86 career receptions, 995yds, 4 TD's

Bess: 363 career receptions, 3,809yds, 14 TD's.

 

Hawkins' career year was 51 receptions for 533yds.  Bess has had 51 catches in 5 of his 6 seasons.  The lone exception was last year with the Browns.  Bess has eclipsed 533yds in 5 of his 6 seasons.  The one exception was last year with the Browns. 

 

 

It's blatantly clear that Bess is the better WR.

Nope.

[Bengals1181]

Nope.

 

 

well I can't argue with that well reasoned response.

[coup000]

The point isn't who is better now, the point is who was better going into their respective seasons. If we are comparing the browns going into 2014 compared to the browns going into 2013, then we have to compare hawk going into 2014 compared to bess going into 2013. Bess going into 2013 is the better play than hawk going into 2014.

With that being said, if you are comparing the pre offseason browns to the post offseason browns, then yes hawk is an upgrade.

1181s point is it isn't an upgrade over what the team looked like going into 2013. Or at least how I interpreted his point.

Fortunately, we now have the benefit of hindsight. Davonne Bess of 2013 did virtually nothing when he played (besides almost lead the league in drops) and ended up being such a head case that he got suspended for the last 2 games of the year. So in reality it would be difficult for 2014 Hawkins to not be an upgrade on 2013 Bess.  

[scharm]

There you go again Captain Disingenuous. It's non sequitur. Comparing a #2 WR on a less than talented WR corp of the Browns vs a #4 on a deeper team than the Browns had is indeed apples to oarges because OF COURSE the #2 is going to have more yards/TDs by the very nature of being a #2, anyone attempting to make any argument using that kind of stats is simply being disingenuous. Fact is until Hawkins gets the chance to show what he can do as a #2 comparing them using stats is useless, but you already knew that.

Eh, we've had Coles, Caldwell, Simpson, Sanu, and Marv in 2-3 spots past few years.

That isn't Ocho/TJ, Pickens/Scott, Riley/collinsworth.


Our current group has flashed potential in the most recent season but hasn't done it all the way. Hawkins was 4 in a group of unproven players.

[Bengals1181]

Fortunately, we now have the benefit of hindsight. Davonne Bess of 2013 did virtually nothing when he played (besides almost lead the league in drops) and ended up being such a head case that he got suspended for the last 2 games of the year. So in reality it would be difficult for 2014 Hawkins to not be an upgrade on 2013 Bess.  

 

 

So bess did virtually nothing in 2013, but only had 9 catches less in 2013 than Hawkins career best year...good logic there.

 

 

I'm a big Baby Hawk fan.  He's probably one of my top 5 Bengals of recent history and would maybe crack my top 10 all time.  

 

Bess is the better player though.    And you basically just admitted it, by classifying a slightly worse year than Hawkins' career year as "virtually nothing."

[gatorclaws]

Fortunately, we now have the benefit of hindsight. Davonne Bess of 2013 did virtually nothing when he played (besides almost lead the league in drops) and ended up being such a head case that he got suspended for the last 2 games of the year. So in reality it would be difficult for 2014 Hawkins to not be an upgrade on 2013 Bess.  

 

2013 Hawkins didn't do shit when he got healthy either. Are we assuming Gruden just didn't play him for fun?  How do we know 2014 Hawkins will resemble pre 2013 Hawkins in any form?

[coup000]

 

2013 Hawkins didn't do shit when he got healthy either. Are we assuming Gruden just didn't play him for fun?  How do we know 2014 Hawkins will resemble pre 2013 Hawkins in any form?

We don't know anything...besides that 2013 Bess sucked and his NFL career is almost certainly over. Hawkins may never make another catch in the NFL, but I would certainly deem him an upgrade over 2013 Bess based on potential and lack of craziness alone.

[scharm]

Bengals may not have a legit 2 on their team,yet. Although I think it will play out that they do.


If Browns are entering TC with Hawk as no. 2 you've got talent issues, IMO. True, with opportunity Hawk individually may produce better numbers but I think he just eats up another players numbers and doesn't help them produce greater numbers as a whole.

[rcarpenter62]

How the hell did this turn into a Hawkins vs Bess thread?

 

But I will chime in... My $0.02, the fact that Bess is highly unlikely to be in the league this year, I would guess Hawk is an upgrade in almost every way you can possible refer to for 2014.

[JC]

Beas may have been good in Miami, but he was absolute garbage last year. He was a slot guy who caught less than 50% of his targets. I don't think Hawkins brings a lot to the table coming out of the slot, but he is absolutely an upgrade at the Y position over Bess.

The browns made some good win now moves. Whitner is a box safety much like ward. He may have been overpaid, but that doesn't really matter this year. Same goes for Mack. Tate is an effective back in shannys scheme. Dansby should be an upgrade over Jackson in the run department. They are trying to make a serious run this year and if hoyer/draft pick can manage games, they have enough offensive weapons and good enough defensive pieces to do some damage. I expect us to split with them again unfortunately.

[JBandJoeyV]

How the hell did this turn into a Hawkins vs Bess thread?
 
But I will chime in... My $0.02, the fact that Bess is highly unlikely to be in the league this year, I would guess Hawk is an upgrade in almost every way you can possible refer to for 2014.

The argument was never whether 2014 Hawkins is an upgrade over 2014 bess, but whatever.

The main point is all the players the browns signed were just replacing other players. Some were downgrades, some were washes, some were minors upgrades.

[rcarpenter62]

The argument was never whether 2014 Hawkins is an upgrade over 2014 bess, but whatever.

The main point is all the players the browns signed were just replacing other players. Some were downgrades, some were washes, some were minors upgrades.

 

I know that wasn't the argument, I just didn't see the point, other than 2014.  But I should have kept it to myself.  I don't wanna become 'that guy'.

[Zins30]

The Ravens definitely upgraded at skill positions. Steve Smith can still play and I think will be a good add. Pitta will be better fully healed and Daniels is an upgrade from Ed Dickson. Throw in that Ray Rice is supposedly in better shape (although knocking out women) and they could be in for a rebound season.

Even will all the trades to upgrade their roster they still will get a pretty good draft haul from compensatory picks. I see them easily being our biggest competition for the division title.

[JBandJoeyV]

 
I know that wasn't the argument, I just didn't see the point, other than 2014.  But I should have kept it to myself.  I don't wanna become 'that guy'.

The point is that yes, getting Hawkins was a good move and an upgrade over who they had on their team going into the offseason. BUT it doesn't necessarily make them a better team than they were in 2013.

They made a lot of moves but most of theirs moves just replaced players they lost that were better, equal or maybe slightly worse.

[Bengals1181]

The point is that yes, getting Hawkins was a good move and an upgrade over who they had on their team going into the offseason. BUT it doesn't necessarily make them a better team than they were in 2013.

They made a lot of moves but most of theirs moves just replaced players they lost that were better, equal or maybe slightly worse.

 

 

to sum, this.

[Khatmandude]

Bengals may not have a legit 2 on their team,yet. Although I think it will play out that they do.


If Browns are entering TC with Hawk as no. 2 you've got talent issues, IMO. True, with opportunity Hawk individually may produce better numbers but I think he just eats up another players numbers and doesn't help them produce greater numbers as a whole.

 

If your WRs are Gordon, Sammy Watkins as the #2 and Hawkins in the slot, I'd say there is an abundance of talent vs having talent issues.  I think people downplay Hawkins' talent....just because he wasn't drafted doesn't mean he doesn't have talent.  It was simply discovered later, but it's undoubtedly there.  He has a skillset that very few in the NFL have.  He's extremely shifty, quick and fast....that's what you would call talent.   I would imagine that's the plan, as opposed to having Hawkins as the #2 on the outside, where he's never really played and has looked very uncomfortable doing so in the very limited opportunities he has gotten there. 

 

Beas may have been good in Miami, but he was absolute garbage last year. He was a slot guy who caught less than 50% of his targets. I don't think Hawkins brings a lot to the table coming out of the slot, but he is absolutely an upgrade at the Y position over Bess.

The browns made some good win now moves. Whitner is a box safety much like ward. He may have been overpaid, but that doesn't really matter this year. Same goes for Mack. Tate is an effective back in shannys scheme. Dansby should be an upgrade over Jackson in the run department. They are trying to make a serious run this year and if hoyer/draft pick can manage games, they have enough offensive weapons and good enough defensive pieces to do some damage. I expect us to split with them again unfortunately.

 

Agree.  Except for the splitting part.....season sweep those fools. 

 

The Ravens definitely upgraded at skill positions. Steve Smith can still play and I think will be a good add. Pitta will be better fully healed and Daniels is an upgrade from Ed Dickson. Throw in that Ray Rice is supposedly in better shape (although knocking out women) and they could be in for a rebound season.

Even will all the trades to upgrade their roster they still will get a pretty good draft haul from compensatory picks. I see them easily being our biggest competition for the division title.

 

Agree.  I think Ravens and Steelers will both be better.  Ravens based on moves made and Steelers based on history/moves made. 

 

The point is that yes, getting Hawkins was a good move and an upgrade over who they had on their team going into the offseason. BUT it doesn't necessarily make them a better team than they were in 2013.

They made a lot of moves but most of theirs moves just replaced players they lost that were better, equal or maybe slightly worse.

 

We have no idea if what they've done will make them a better team or not....you'll have to wait until after the season to find out.  The on paper argument...an objective person would say they've improved this offseason thus far or have stayed level at worst.  Whitner = Ward for the short term, Ward may be slightly better physically but Whitner crafty veteran.  Dansby = or maybe > Jackson short term.   Hawkins > Bess/slot WR currently on roster.   Hoyer coming back who infused excitement, confidence into Browns team for short duration he played for....made plays, made things happen...beat our very own Bengals.   Potentially add Sammy Watkins (or another high pick) and another 1st Rd pick and I'd say the potential is great for them to be better than 2013.  No?  Let's stay objective instead of downplaying other teams' moves and hyping Bengals' moves....general advice, not singling you out, as it seems to happen often.   Just stay objective. 

[The PatternMaster]

 

 

yea the Ravens have made some nice depth moves like Daniels.  Steelers have lost more than they've gained, though Blount is a nice add.  Moore vs Sanders is probably a push.  Moore is the better WR but Sanders was the bigger threat, if that makes sense. They're defense is still a mess though and they didn't have the cap space to fix it.

 

Cleveland, if we're being objective, has downgraded a number of spots from the team/staff that last took the field in 2013.

 

I disagree with that assessment, I think Cleveland significantly improved at WR, RB, and LB. Tate is an upgrade over what they had last year at RB. Hawkins and Burleson are upgrades over Bess and the rest of the hot garbage they had at WR last year. Dansby is a 3down LB that can get sacks and INT's while Jackson is an effective tackler but not a big playmaker like Dansby. 

 

Cleveland also has 5 picks in the first 83 picks of the draft so they have an opportunity to add a lot of young talented players to this team. I suspect they will pick up a QB, CB, and safety early in the draft. If you combine those picks with the talent they already have on the roster they could be very competitive next season. 

 

The Brian Hoyer led Browns put the smack down the Bengals last year, so why everyone thinks an improved Browns team will be an easy win is beyond me. 

 

The facts are the Bengals had a good regular season, but got embarrassed in the playoffs and since then they have lost 3 key contributors from that team and they haven't been replaced yet. The FO decided to let go of two really good young players, cut the starting center, and they add one guy coming off a broke leg..that's not going to going to get you over the hump and take you to the next level, imo. 

[The PatternMaster]

 

 

I really don't get why its such a difficult thing to grasp.

 

Hawkins:  86 career receptions, 995yds, 4 TD's

Bess: 363 career receptions, 3,809yds, 14 TD's.

 

Hawkins' career year was 51 receptions for 533yds.  Bess has had 51 catches in 5 of his 6 seasons.  The lone exception was last year with the Browns.  Bess has eclipsed 533yds in 5 of his 6 seasons.  The one exception was last year with the Browns. 

 

 

It's blatantly clear that Bess is the better WR.

 

It's difficult to grasp because it's not true, no GM would want Davone Bess over Hawkins and it's laughable that you would argue that Hawkins isn't an upgrade over a guy who literally went crazy and was last seen being arrested by police.  

 

Hawkins is a young player with the prime of his career ahead of him, while Bess couldn't hold it together and take advantage of a great situation last year in Cleveland. Not to make light of Bess's mental health problems but he needs some help.

 

Browns receiver Davone Bess’s arrest this morning for allegedly assaulting a police officer was not his first run-in with police.

 

The Miami Herald reports today that 10 months ago, six police officers were needed to restrain Bess during an incident in his home that ended up with Bess being hospitalized against his will. It is unclear why that incident never previously became public, and it is also unclear whether the Browns knew about it when they acquired Bess in a trade with the Dolphins a month later.

According to a Broward Sheriff’s Office report, during that previous incident Bess was screaming, “Hide the guns,” “Where is my weed,” and “I want to get in the end zone; throw me the football.”

 

The arrest report for the incident this morning said that Bess was seen in the airport “acting irrationally,” singing and dancing with his pants falling down, and that when he was confronted by a police officer, he took off his shirt and assumed a fighting stance.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/01/17/davone-bess-had-previously-unreported-run-in-with-police/

 

So in 2013 Bess had run ins with the police and was committed to a mental hospital, that means that going into the 2013 season he was unraveling and should've been getting help instead of trying to play football. 

[Bengals1181]

 

It's difficult to grasp because it's not true,no GM would want Davone Bess over Hawkins and it's laughable that you would argue that Hawkins isn't an upgrade over a guy who literally went crazy and was last seen being arrested by police.  

 

Hawkins is a young player with the prime of his career ahead of him, while Bess couldn't hold it together and take advantage of a great situation last year in Cleveland. Not to make light of Bess's mental health problems but he needs some help.

 

 

So in 2013 Bess had run ins with the police was committed to a mental hospital, so going into the 2013 season he was unraveling and should've been getting help instead of trying to play football. 

 

 

reading comprehension failure 101 right there.

 

 

and btw, Bess is only 6 months older than Hawkins.

[The PatternMaster]

 

 

reading comprehension failure 101 right there.

 

 

and btw, Bess is only 6 months older than Hawkins.

 

Bess is certifiably crazy..Hawkins is not...therefore Hawkins>Bess...You trying to call me out for my perceived lack of reading comprehension when you can't figure out that I never mentioned the age of either player is quite ironic and moronic. 

 

Also please tell me how I'm not comprehending what you stated about Bess being an upgrade over Hawkins. One player isn't in the league and has well documented mental health issues, while the other just received 4 year contract for 13.6 million with a 4 million dollar signing bonus. 

 

Just because Hawkins plays for the Browns now doesn't mean he's not better than Bess, to say something so ridiculous makes you look silly and the fact that you keep doubling down on your stance when faced with facts that prove that Hawkins was a better options this year and last year makes it seem like you can't stand to be proven wrong and you won't admitted that you are wrong even no matter what facts you are presented with.

 

You act like every move the FO makes is a genius move and every player on the team is future hall of famer until they're no longer on the team and then we really didn't need them and they won't be missed.

[Bengals1181]

 

Bess is certifiably crazy..Hawkins is not...therefore Hawkins>Bess...You trying to call me out for my perceived lack of reading comprehension when you can't figure out that I never mentioned the age of either player is quite ironic and moronic. 

 

 

1) please read through the thread, particularly posts by gator and jbandjoeyv

 

2) you mentioned Hawkins age by calling him a young player.  Not to mention he is not young, nor a player with his prime ahead of him. He's 28.