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Guns in America

MichaelWeston

By MichaelWeston
in JESUS & DRUMPF

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I'd say move the MSR's to class 3 with the other collector stuff, yes you can still have them (you can legally own a working Sherman tank down to the 76mm cannon if you're willing to let the ATFE crawl up your ass & have a look around) but assuming he was using a rifle it was of a type designed for the singular purpose of killing a lot of people quickly. All things being equal I don't see much cause for those being in private hands.

All things not being equal, however, the flip side to that is 1. V-tech dude used handguns and killed just as many ppl & banning those at this point would be as effective as banning mosquitoes 2. Previous attempts at banning that class of weapons were hamfisted at best - the recurring problem of laws written by people who don't understand the subject matter & never expect to abide by them themselves anyway & 3. The vast number of kooks who have been allowed to stockpile military-grade rifles in armories to the point where I wouldn't mind having one or two in the back of the closet myself, just in case. Like those Bundy Ranch "patriots" were stopping citizens on the road and demanding their papers while federal law enforcement sat on their hands, so I see a need there when the people charged with protecting me from that aren't able or willing to do so.

In other words, disarm the sketchy mf'ers with bunkers full of these things before you tell me I can't buy one of my own.  If we don't have the will to do that the AR ban stuff is just another feel-good jerkoff that will not only punish the people least likely to to be a problem, but greatly empower the ones who are & give them a cause to rally behind. Are we ready to confront these kook militias, the OathKeepers and so on, or what? If not we need to STFU about gun control because the only thing we're trying to control are people's emotions.

 

 

 

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It's also worth noting that the guy in the picture is holding a bog-standard pump shotgun other than that it's all black.

Which is a pretty good illustration of why I don't trust this "common sense" gun reform.

This is probably just some duck hunter.  In fact judging by the ring on his finger maybe he was pissed off that day because that Kim Davis bitch wouldn't let him & Cletus get proper married and he was on his way to the range to bust some clays & let off a little steam.

Shit while I'm on the subject, that "military has never attacked civilians" line is utter BS. Even if you narrow it to US civilians, which will at least spare us a couple of decimal places, it's provably false as someone demonstrated above. I'd also note US labor history and the role of the Pinkertons. If something like that were to happen on a large scale now I'd be more concerned with "Patriot" groups or private security contractors. I suspect the line between the two is kinda blurred these days. But, like the gentleman pictured, all I really want to do is hunt some tasty, tasty birds.
 

 

 

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Damn all of those defenders missed some opportunities. Maybe there will be more?

 

Almost certainly.  Then we can add those deaths to our gun violence stats while claiming that kind of thing never happens.  ;)

 

 

Of course, if we no longer limit that to # of Americans, who it's worth noting are engaged in vastly asymmetrical warfare..  Wait, are we including Americans killed by guns wielded by our enemies in those wars? Police shootouts? I believe you can do better than these halfassed shock stats. Otherwise IDK how you even get close to one of the bloodier battles of our Civil War. I don't believe that you aren't aware of how skewed they are yourself. I bet we've killed more civilians in Iraq than have died in gun crimes between US citizens in our history. Should that matter? Does it have any bearing on gun control? Think those MSF volunteers are relieved that it was a JDAM or whatever instead of a handgun? These are not meant to be rhetorical questions, but.. 

So we're clear: 

Until someone is willing to translate what "common sense laws" means into language that would actually hold up in court, I'm probably going to keep digging in my heels.  I'm open to ideas, truly I am, & I think it's important that everyone understand that nobody is happy about a school being shot up - really, take a moment - but memes, misleading or flat wrong stats & a bunch of hand-wringing will not move us forward.  The more misinformation & emotional manipulation I see, the less I trust government to be a solution to the problem.  Past experience tells me the more likely outcome in these situations is another fuck-up for our justice system on the order of mandatory minimums.  That seemed like common sense at the time, too.

 

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Almost certainly.  Then we can add those deaths to our gun violence stats while claiming that kind of thing never happens.  ;)

 

 

Of course, if we no longer limit that to # of Americans, who it's worth noting are engaged in vastly asymmetrical warfare..  Wait, are we including Americans killed by guns wielded by our enemies in those wars? Police shootouts? I believe you can do better than these halfassed shock stats. Otherwise IDK how you even get close to one of the bloodier battles of our Civil War. I don't believe that you aren't aware of how skewed they are yourself. I bet we've killed more civilians in Iraq than have died in gun crimes between US citizens in our history. Should that matter? Does it have any bearing on gun control? Think those MSF volunteers are relieved that it was a JDAM or whatever instead of a handgun? These are not meant to be rhetorical questions, but.. 

So we're clear: 

Until someone is willing to translate what "common sense laws" means into language that would actually hold up in court, I'm probably going to keep digging in my heels.  I'm open to ideas, truly I am, & I think it's important that everyone understand that nobody is happy about a school being shot up - really, take a moment - but memes, misleading or flat wrong stats & a bunch of hand-wringing will not move us forward.  The more misinformation & emotional manipulation I see, the less I trust government to be a solution to the problem.  Past experience tells me the more likely outcome in these situations is another fuck-up for our justice system on the order of mandatory minimums.  That seemed like common sense at the time, too.

 

Treat them like cars but add a little more. Guns must be titled and registered. If they are lost or stolen they must be reported.

Classes and tests must be taken and passed. Must be tagged yearly. All sales are treated like car sales.

Any crime committed with a gun in your name you are criminally liable. Bullets should be taxed a lot more. 

Anyone found with an unlicensed gun faces jail time. Commit a crime face stiffer punishment. 

60 days for background checks. Must have at least 2 personal references. 

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Thanks, Old.  Cool with most of this.  2 things I know I'm not: Crime committed with gun in my name.  If someone steals my car and runs someone over drunk I don't agree that I should be held accountable.  OK, what if I left it running with the doors unlocked? There's an argument to be made for due diligence but enforcing something like that...  I don't like the lawsuits against bartenders in those cases, either, as far as that kind of liability.

I've mentioned this before but I think restricting the unlimited private sales would go a long way towards what you're suggesting. 

This was actually news to me because I can't imagine not reporting this, but as of now the ATFE requires licensed dealers to report a loss or theft within 48 hours. I'm guessing the only reason it's that long is to account for shops being closed weekends & the possibility of not discovering a theft immediately. They don't take reports from private citizens because technically there isn't a national dbase of serial #'s.  That's always been a sticking point re: gun regulation. However there is a database for LEO's, which I assume is collaborative on a state or private level. I'm sure someone else on here knows better than I how that works but I believe it's only a dbase of police reports. Anyway I totally agree with you here; reporting a missing gun should be SOP regardless of s/n questions and if we're not going to have a registry even minor fuckery with sale & transfer needs to be seriously punished.  Regardless of my opinion I think a national registry is a nonstarter.  This is where the Constitutionalist argument gains traction.  Laugh if you want, but IMHO our government was founded by people with a deep distrust of the institution they were creating & history tell us it would be foolish to ignore them but that's another topic. Point being for various reasons let's avoid trying to create a list of every gun in America. It'd be fascinating but I don't think that's realistic.

 

WALL OF TEXT BREAK

Classes; mentioned before I had to take one to get a hunting license & it's a requirement in Ohio as well.  I should point out that it was an NRA class and that is who traditionally has conducted them & are also the standard for instructor licensing. Folding some of this stuff into a hunting license would have some benefits. I know I'd feel safer hunting public lands knowing anyone else out there probably had this same kind of training, including finer points like ethics and how not to throw butts & beer cans in the fucking creek. Plus a lot of that money goes back into conservation & maintenance of those lands. Not getting shot is just a bonus.

On that note, the other thing that jumped out was increasing the cost of ammo. This does not encourage the kind of classes & training we both want.  Believe it or not there are still subsistence hunters to consider, too.  I think punitive taxation is bad policy in general & dicking with availability only encourages more hording.

 

60 days for background checks. Must have at least 2 personal references.

 

Also sounds reasonable, or just tie this into the license idea & make the individual sales simpler.  One background check &tc.  Avoids the registry issue & make it something that requires just a little maintenance.  20 minutes at a range & an arrest record should weed out 99% of the kooks.  There's always going to remain that 1% though & I don't see how any law is going to change that.  I also believe that gun control is only one part of a solution & will remain political theater until our current leadership moves back towards the center.

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Hell, they should be sending those checks to Pelosi.  When people who think banning adjustable stocks is "common sense gun control" introduce legislation, sales go through the roof. I think they should be concentrating on access, not which guns look scary. Honestly if the Sandy Hook massacre wasn't enough to budge people I'm not sure what it will take. I think it's worth noting that the rifles used in SB yesterday were almost certainly of a type illegal in California.

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