USN Bengal Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='560214' date='Oct 1 2007, 12:49 PM']All hail Xenu! I'm so sick of these blood-drenched purveyors of torment who can still manage to sleep a sleep of self-satisfaction at night, mostly because they've poked their own eyes out because it's easier to do that than it is to see the damage their havoc has caused in the world.[/quote] Wow... that can apply to one and all couldn't it? Were you saving that comment for any particular group/person... or was that a comment on earth/civilization in general? To me... that is every race & religion at one time or another in the annals of humankind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 [quote name='IKOTA' post='560351' date='Oct 1 2007, 03:43 PM']Lawman, you are mistaken on SO MUCH regarding Islam that I find no point in "discussing" anything with you. You don't objectively research it and I can tell due to your misconceptions and just flat out wrong interpretations regarding it....and that's coming from me.....a guy in his 20's who has alot of work to do still in regards to knowledge. To even label as discussion what goes on in 90% of these threads would be an insult to the process of intellectual discussion.......[/quote] HA! I can't BE insulted, as I'm too dumb for that... just ask my wife! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='560303' date='Oct 1 2007, 02:36 PM']Homer, [i]Neither Ikota or WhodeyUk would NOT engage in open conversation/discussion when it came to Islamic issue's; they would simply side-step them with feeble attemps to discredit my knowledge on the subject or resort to name-calling tactics.[/i](now I know why WhodeyUK wouldn't respond; slaps fore-head). [i]Islam is as dysfunctional with it's seperate sects as Christianity is with it's varying denominations. There is a Qur'anic sect out there that has recently caught my attention where as they hold the Quran as preserved (I have argument against this notion) and that the Hadith's and Sunnah's should not viewed as inspired (sound familiar); incidently fatwah's have been levied against specific individuals within this sect. Homer, do you not think I venture onto pro-islamic sites in order to try and understand what is being taught to our muslim brothers on christianity? It's NOT the miss-information on christianity that I find interesting, but more compelling is the omissions which effect interpertation.[/i] [i]I HAVE questioned my own belief's and continue to do so; some answers to my questions I have found and/or have come to reason with, but other's still do exist and I continue to seek. [/i][/quote] I understand that you have a calling to proselytize and I have no problem with that. It's a principle which motivates many honorable religionists. And, I suspect you're probably a pretty good CPO because you desire to reach out to the young'uns. But, just as you feel compelled to convert others, I feel compelled to challenge the worst of your missives. No free rides for someone just because they invoke the name of religion, especially those, like you, who have blinders on--despite what you say. If teachers can be challenged on the basis of the content of their teaching, then so can the purveyors of religion, especially those who offer crackpot rationalizations which lead to really bad consequences in the world. The problem is not so much intellectual as it is moral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 [quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='560383' date='Oct 1 2007, 04:24 PM']Wow... that can apply to one and all couldn't it?[/quote] No. [quote]Were you saving that comment for any particular group/person... or was that a comment on earth/civilization in general?[/quote] Neither. Consider it an expression of solidarity with my friend, Erasmus, who was much wiser and vastly more effective than I ever will be; yet, I experience the same frustrations as he did. [quote]To me... that is every race & religion at one time or another in the annals of humankind.[/quote] I'd only modify that to say that it reflects certain factions within every religion in the annals of history. Part of that has to do with the nature of religion itself. There has always been tension between those religionists who pursue the truth within the context of their faith, and those charlatans who use their religion as a tool to fleece the flock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 [quote name='Homer_Rice' post='560454' date='Oct 1 2007, 06:18 PM']I'd only modify that to say that it reflects certain factions within every religion in the annals of history. Part of that has to do with the nature of religion itself. There has always been tension between those religionists who pursue the truth within the context of their faith, and those charlatans who use their religion as a tool to fleece the flock.[/quote] I can agree with that modification wholeheartedly. The one thing I've found in my ever continuing worldy education is that the worst people I've met are the religious ones. The spiritual ones, on the other hand, have been the best people I've met. Funny how those two are usually polar opposites in meaning... yet aren't. Thanks again, Homer. Communication, however limited, is better than none at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 [quote]But, just as you feel compelled to convert others, [u]I feel compelled to challenge the worst of your missives[/u]. No free rides for someone just because they invoke the name of religion, especially those, like you, who have blinders on--despite what you say.[/quote] [i]Homer, Your agnostic position is well documented. I understand you hold christianity in contempt; and probably deservingly so considering the evil things that have been conducted in the name of our lord Jesus Christ. From my perspective, the J&Dubya section of GoBengals has been used by some to ridicule christians and identifying them with Matt Goening's character Ned Flanders on the Simpsons; no I am a different breed. My convictions are true, I come soley to educate/dispell myth's while defending the bible/faith with passages and anecdotal evidence presented by unbias historians such as Flavious Joseph/Tactus and Thallus, inadition to Pliny the Younger (Governor in Asia Minor) and Greek writer Lucian:[/i] [color="#000080"]"The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property." [/color] [i]You believe you know me and you attempt to paint a picture of me to others as one of those neo-con rightwing nut-job conservative christian support GWB. You do not know me at all, I am a Blue-Dog Democrat, fisical conservative who believes in a liberal democracy (not to be confused with Liberalism) with a strong perspective on christian/family values. I do believe the war in Iraq could have been avoided, but Saddam was the one truly responsible for this war.[/i] [i]I am simply an apologist for the Christian faith. I do understand why those 13 million Islamic radicals hate us. (you need to understand what happened to Islam after the death of Muhhamad; it plays out like a Shakespearan tragedy) Now where did all of Arafat's billions go again?[/i] [color="#000080"]"....but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence" (1 Pet. 3:15)[/color] [quote]I feel compelled to challenge the worst of your missives[/quote] [i]Such hubris, challenge accepted.[/i] [i]You see Homer, I know you better than you know me. In you, I see an articulate worldly educated man full of knowledge and whom I will always be in debt for what you have done for me. You have helped me to galvanize my belief in Christ more than anyone, forcing me to seek out answers where in the past I would not have been so inclined to do so. Yes, I am thanking you, but at the same time I feel sad, because I see an empty man. [/i] [i]I think you believe in some form of a supreme-being, but just not in Jesus Christ. This is the emptiness I speak of. Since my youth, I have always felt the presence of the lord. Yes, I recieved my baptism in fire and brimestone a many of Sundays and this is probably why I am conditioned the way I am with crusty edges.[/i] [i]Yes, I fear god and probably not as much as I should. No, I do not have all of the answers and if I don'tknow I will and have admitted as such. As much as you may percieve it, I am threat to none. If some believe what I have to say is disruptive and I should stop, I will. To take it a step further and if asked to do so, I will leave this forum, never to return. God Bless you Homer.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted October 1, 2007 Report Share Posted October 1, 2007 [quote]You don't objectively research it and I can tell due to your misconceptions and just flat out wrong interpretations regarding it....[/quote] [img]http://www.tvguide.com/images/pgimg/perry-mason.jpg[/img] [i]Your honor, I rest my case.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USN Bengal Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='560545' date='Oct 1 2007, 07:42 PM']If some believe what I have to say is disruptive and I should stop, I will. To take it a step further and if asked to do so, I will leave this forum, never to return. God Bless you Homer.[/i][/quote] Don't hide your light under a bushel! I ask you to stay, a world of all like opinions is a sad and stale world. You strike me as a spiritual man... not religious. I would like to thank you for your witnessing. It has assisted me in elevating MY faith in God... much to the chagrin of those who would prefer it otherwise! God Bless Lawman, and everyone else as well. As to your statement, "I am simply an apologist for the Christian faith. I do understand why those 13 million Islamic radicals hate us." I must say this... to some it is absolutely astonishing that you say you are an apologist, many I know (including myself) would call you a champion of the cause! As to why there are 13 million Islamic radicals that "hate us"... I disagree. Those 13 millions hate Americans is what I believe, and that's for a myriad of reasons. Many of them deserved and well earned by our country and her actions. The ones who DO hate Christians, they hate what they do not know... as there are "Christians" who hate Muslims... ignorance knows no bounds associated with race, religion, creed, and color. Ignorance is the enemy as far as I'm concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='560545' date='Oct 1 2007, 07:42 PM']Your agnostic position is well documented. I understand you hold christianity in contempt; and probably deservingly so considering the evil things that have been conducted in the name of our lord Jesus Christ.[/quote] Really? I've made a lot of claims in my 50 years, I do not think I have ever claimed to be agnostic. That might be because I know a little about gnosis and what opposition to it means. Nor, btw, I am a gnostic. I'll be succinct here to help you out on our differences: I believe in a God which created the human species, along with the rest of Creation; you believe in a God that some humans created, for the benefit of a small segment of that species. And, as a pretty staunch defender of Christianity, I find it amusing that you think I hold it in contempt. I think I have been pretty precise in displaying my contempt for irrationality passing as Christianity. [quote]My convictions are true, I come soley to educate/dispell myth's while defending the bible/faith with passages and anecdotal evidence presented by unbias historians such as Flavious Joseph/Tactus and Thallus, inadition to Pliny the Younger (Governor in Asia Minor) and Greek writer Lucian: ( snip...)[/quote] I don't doubt that your convictions are closely held; that's pretty obvious. I even believe that your intent to educate and dispell myths is an honest motive. Too bad that you ran into a fellow who actually knows something about Josephus, Tacitus and the classical world in general. It's obvious you don't really know much at all about this portion of human history. [quote]You believe you know me and you attempt to paint a picture of me to others as one of those neo-con rightwing nut-job conservative christian support GWB. You do not know me at all, I am a Blue-Dog Democrat, fisical conservative who believes in a liberal democracy (not to be confused with Liberalism) with a strong perspective on christian/family values. I do believe the war in Iraq could have been avoided, but Saddam was the one truly responsible for this war.[/quote] Actually, I think Strauss and Trotsky are a bit out of your league, so I've never thought of you as a neo-con. I do think of you as a person who has foolishly abetted those idiots which have done so much harm to US interests in the world, not to mention the irreparable (and inexcusable) murder that such poor judgement has resulted in accomplishing. [quote]I am simply an apologist for the Christian faith. I do understand why those 13 million Islamic radicals hate us. (you need to understand what happened to Islam after the death of Muhhamad; it plays out like a Shakespearan tragedy) Now where did all of Arafat's billions go again? Such hubris, challenge accepted.[/quote] Oh, please, let's not get carried away! This is a Bengals board. Suffice it to say that I am a "witness" for sanity. [quote]You see Homer, I know you better than you know me. In you, I see an articulate worldly educated man full of knowledge and whom I will always be in debt for what you have done for me. You have helped me to galvanize my belief in Christ more than anyone, forcing me to seek out answers where in the past I would not have been so inclined to do so. Yes, I am thanking you, but at the same time I feel sad, because I see an empty man.[/quote] Glad to be of service. [quote]I think you believe in some form of a supreme-being, but just not in Jesus Christ. This is the emptiness I speak of. Since my youth, I have always felt the presence of the lord. Yes, I recieved my baptism in fire and brimestone a many of Sundays and this is probably why I am conditioned the way I am with crusty edges.[/quote] Correct. I do find it curious that: a ) you think I require Jesus as a crutch to fill some void, and b ) that you would describe your spiritual leanings in the language of a medieval vassal. I suppose that is where your perverse sense of noblesse oblige is derived. [quote]Yes, I fear god and probably not as much as I should. No, I do not have all of the answers and if I don'tknow I will and have admitted as such. As much as you may percieve it, I am threat to none.[/quote] Here's something I think that you and I can agree upon in principle, if not in substance: If God is agape, then God ought not be feared. Instead, God ought to be embraced. If your God instills fear in you, then you may have latched onto the wrong God. [quote]If some believe what I have to say is disruptive and I should stop, I will. To take it a step further and if asked to do so, I will leave this forum, never to return. God Bless you Homer.[/quote] I would never suggest that you leave this forum, nor would I suggest that you modify your views if they are a matter of principle to you. It's your right and privilege to stand tall for what you believe in. You're clearly a stand-up guy who I'd happily buy a beer. Well, actually maybe two--one for you to drink and one for me to pour over your head! Feel free to respond in kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 [i]Man I need a reprieve from those above threads, they are getting brutal to bear with all those whiney/dumbass post. Ah, the sanctuary of the J & Dubya Forum.[/i] [quote]Really? I've made a lot of claims in my 50 years, I do not think I have ever claimed to be agnostic. That might be because I know a little about gnosis and what opposition to it means. Nor, btw, I am a gnostic. I'll be succinct here to help you out on our differences: I believe in a God which created the human species, along with the rest of Creation; [b]you believe in a God that some humans created, for the benefit of a small segment of that species.[/b] And, as a pretty staunch defender of Christianity, I find it amusing that you think I hold it in contempt. I think I have been pretty precise in displaying my contempt for irrationality passing as Christianity.[/quote] [img]http://www.fostoria.org/history/Century/years/pictures/Reagon.jpg[/img] [i]Now there you go again.[/i] [color="#000080"]"For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him," (1 Cor. 8:5-6,)[/color] [i]I did not see anywhere in your post acknowledging the presence of Christ, therefore what is your position on the Holy Trinity and the Hypostic Union of Christ?[/i] [i]I believe the God, the god of Abraham is the same for all of the three magor religons and all of mankind, however I disagree with the Muslim choice of naming the God of Abraham "Allah". Allah was the name of one of the 300 plus pagan gods associated with the tribes around Medina. Specifically, the "Moon God".[/i] [i]The essence of Christianity revolves around this passage[/i]: Matt 11:27 [color="#000080"]"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." [/color] [i]Jesus is telling us, the way to knowing God is through him while identifying himself as being part of the godhead known as the Holy Trinity(One GOD).[/i] [quote]I don't doubt that your convictions are closely held; that's pretty obvious. I even believe that your intent to educate and dispell myths is an honest motive. Too bad that you ran into a fellow who actually knows something about Josephus, Tacitus and the classical world in general. [b]It's obvious you don't really know much at all about this portion of human history[/b].[/quote] [i]Without going into detail which could be readily found on Wiki, for now I offer this:[/i] [color="#000080"]About this time lived Jesus, a man full of wisdom, if indeed one may call Him a man. For He was the doer of incredible things, and the teacher of such as gladly received the truth. He thus attracted to Himself many Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. On the accusation of the leading men of our people, Pilate condemned Him to death upon the cross; nevertheless those who had previously loved Him still remained faithful to Him. For on the third day He again appeared to them living, just as, in addition to a thousand other marvellous things, prophets sent by God had foretold. And to the present day the race of those who call themselves Christians after Him has not ceased. The early Christians were zealous readers of Josephus's "History of the Jews", and the Fathers of the Church, such as Jerome and Ambrose, as well as the early ecclesiastical historians like Eusebius, are fond of quoting him in their works. St. Chrysostom calls him a useful expounder of the historical books of the Old Testament.[/color] [i]I simply use them as reference without bias intent and outside the influence of those early christians; whom happen to identify/recognize the mere existence of Jesus[/i]. [quote]If God is agape, then God ought not be feared. Instead, God ought to be embraced. If your God instills fear in you, then you may have latched onto the wrong God.[/quote] [i]This one of those questions I alluded to in my last post which you have so eleqountly put in perspective. The fear I speak of is to be out of sight of his presence. The answer to this contrasting perspective, for me, is associated with human pride. We think we do not need his assistance and reflecting on the lyrics John lennon's song "Imagine":[/i] [color="#000080"]Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today... Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace...[/color] [i]Beautiful song/man, brilliant songwriter and amazing person; ..... did you catch that last word, because that is all he was "a man". Jesus is bigger than the Beatles.[/i] [quote]I would never suggest that you leave this forum, nor would I suggest that you modify your views if they are a matter of principle to you. It's your right and privilege to stand tall for what you believe in. You're clearly a stand-up guy who I'd happily buy a beer. Well, actually maybe two--one for you to drink and one for me [b]to pour over your head[/b]! Feel free to respond in kind.[/quote] [i]That would not be the first time[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 [quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='560573' date='Oct 1 2007, 08:16 PM']Don't hide your light under a bushel! I ask you to stay, a world of all like opinions is a sad and stale world. You strike me as a spiritual man... not religious. I would like to thank you for your witnessing. It has assisted me in elevating MY faith in God... much to the chagrin of those who would prefer it otherwise! God Bless Lawman, and everyone else as well. As to your statement, "I am simply an apologist for the Christian faith. I do understand why those 13 million Islamic radicals hate us." I must say this... to some it is absolutely astonishing that you say you are an apologist, many I know (including myself) would call you a champion of the cause! As to why there are 13 million Islamic radicals that "hate us"... I disagree. Those 13 millions hate Americans is what I believe, and that's for a myriad of reasons. Many of them deserved and well earned by our country and her actions. The ones who DO hate Christians, they hate what they do not know... as there are "Christians" who hate Muslims... ignorance knows no bounds associated with race, religion, creed, and color. Ignorance is the enemy as far as I'm concerned.[/quote] [i]In real life, I am quite and reserved other than working with junior sailors or coaching youth sports.[/i] [i]Yes, we the US have done some deserved responsibility for the climate in the middle-east, but the US support for Israel is their magor beef; contrary to what others say Israel is the only true democratic country in that region and a roadblock to the advancement of the caliphate for the Islamic Jhadist redicals. They irony here is the appeasement from the american left with these radicals when they would be the equivalent to the US Christian conservative block.[/i] [i]Christian that hate others do to their religons are not demonstrating the doctrine as prescribed by Jesus.[/i] [i]Christianity in the west has not had to endure sacrafice like others around the world have that share the same faith.[/i] I would recommend the book [i]"Tortured For Christ "[/i] by the late [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wurmbrand"]Rev. Richard Wurmbrand[/url] ( Voices of the Martyr's ) and then for a real eyeopener [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Freaks_%28book%29"]Jesus Freaks [/url]by dcTalk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 [quote]If God is agape, then God ought not be feared. Instead, God ought to be embraced.[/quote] Amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 I can't say what is right or not, but i was always taught that God is to be feared... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted October 2, 2007 Report Share Posted October 2, 2007 [quote name='bengalrick' post='562341' date='Oct 2 2007, 03:38 PM']I can't say what is right or not, but i was always taught that God is to be feared...[/quote] [i]BR, God is to be feared or the punishment he will adminster to the one that offends him. What offends God? SIN. Does God what everyone one to fear him? No, he wants them to embrace his love. But, respect his laws (commandments). But Why must he punish? Because he is a Righteous God and he must judge by the laws he established. Does God want to send people to hell? No [/i] [color="#000080"]2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, [b]not willing that any should perish[/b], but that all should come to repentance.[/color] [i]The fear of God has diminshed vastly over the years, particularly here in the US. Just pick up todays newspaper and read the headlines. The latest story that I have seen is the rape of a [/i][b]THREE YEAR OLD BABY[/b]. [i]What is wrong with people today you ask; I say they do not fear God's retribution due to lack of belief/knowledge of him. It's sad. No John Lennon I can't "Imagine" no heaven above us or hell below[/i]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer_Rice Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='562155' date='Oct 2 2007, 01:21 PM'][i]Now there you go again.[/i][/quote] Yep. [quote]I did not see anywhere in your post acknowledging the presence of Christ, therefore what is your position on the Holy Trinity and the Hypostic Union of Christ?[/quote] See my previous (and numerous) posts re the Filioque. And I presume you mean hypostatic? [quote]I believe the God, the god of Abraham is the same for all of the three magor religons and all of mankind, however I disagree with the Muslim choice of naming the God of Abraham "Allah".[/quote] Fine. I disagree with your choice of an anthropomorphic God, for whom there is no proof of existence. As I have argued elsewhere, and stated earlier today, I think man is created in the image of God. I do not think that God is created from the imagination of man. [quote]The early Christians were zealous readers of Josephus's "History of the Jews", and the Fathers of the Church, such as Jerome and Ambrose, as well as the early ecclesiastical historians like Eusebius, are fond of quoting him in their works. St. Chrysostom calls him a useful expounder of the historical books of the Old Testament.[/quote] And this has what to do with you superficial understanding of the ancient world? I suspect you have not read either Josephus or Eusebius. Too bad you don't live down the block, I'd happily give you access to my library, which has approx 150 books from the period. [quote][i]I simply use them as reference without bias intent and outside the influence of those early christians; whom happen to identify/recognize the mere existence of Jesus[/i].[/quote] Fair enough. I don't dispute the existence of Jesus, I don't even dispute his claim to be the Son of God. I think I understand why he did that. [quote]This one of those questions I alluded to in my last post which you have so eleqountly put in perspective. The fear I speak of is to be out of sight of his presence. The answer to this contrasting perspective, for me, is associated with human pride. We think we do not need his assistance and reflecting on the lyrics John lennon's song "Imagine":[/quote] Imagine that I think the song is overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='562155' date='Oct 2 2007, 02:51 PM'][i]Man I need a reprieve from those above threads, they are getting brutal to bear with all those whiney/dumbass post. Ah, the sanctuary of the J & Dubya Forum.[/i] [img]http://www.fostoria.org/history/Century/years/pictures/Reagon.jpg[/img] [i]Now there you go again.[/i] [color="#000080"]"For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him," (1 Cor. 8:5-6,)[/color] [i]I did not see anywhere in your post acknowledging the presence of Christ, therefore what is your position on the Holy Trinity and the Hypostic Union of Christ?[/i] [i]I believe the God, the god of Abraham is the same for all of the three magor religons and all of mankind, however I disagree with the Muslim choice of naming the God of Abraham "Allah". Allah was the name of one of the 300 plus pagan gods associated with the tribes around Medina. Specifically, the "Moon God".[/i] [i]The essence of Christianity revolves around this passage[/i]: Matt 11:27 [color="#000080"]"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." [/color] [i]Jesus is telling us, the way to knowing God is through him while identifying himself as being part of the godhead known as the Holy Trinity(One GOD).[/i] [i]Without going into detail which could be readily found on Wiki, for now I offer this:[/i] [color="#000080"]About this time lived Jesus, a man full of wisdom, if indeed one may call Him a man. For He was the doer of incredible things, and the teacher of such as gladly received the truth. He thus attracted to Himself many Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ. On the accusation of the leading men of our people, Pilate condemned Him to death upon the cross; nevertheless those who had previously loved Him still remained faithful to Him. For on the third day He again appeared to them living, just as, in addition to a thousand other marvellous things, prophets sent by God had foretold. And to the present day the race of those who call themselves Christians after Him has not ceased. The early Christians were zealous readers of Josephus's "History of the Jews", and the Fathers of the Church, such as Jerome and Ambrose, as well as the early ecclesiastical historians like Eusebius, are fond of quoting him in their works. St. Chrysostom calls him a useful expounder of the historical books of the Old Testament.[/color] [i]I simply use them as reference without bias intent and outside the influence of those early christians; whom happen to identify/recognize the mere existence of Jesus[/i]. [i]This one of those questions I alluded to in my last post which you have so eleqountly put in perspective. The fear I speak of is to be out of sight of his presence. The answer to this contrasting perspective, for me, is associated with human pride. We think we do not need his assistance and reflecting on the lyrics John lennon's song "Imagine":[/i] [color="#000080"]Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today... Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace...[/color] [i]Beautiful song/man, brilliant songwriter and amazing person; ..... did you catch that last word, because that is all he was "a man". Jesus is bigger than the Beatles.[/i] [i]That would not be the first time[/i] [/quote] Go back to school.......unless of course spreading disinformation is your motive...which I wouldn't doubt either after reading your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 [quote name='IKOTA' post='562972' date='Oct 3 2007, 09:45 AM']Go back to school.......unless of course spreading disinformation is your motive...which I wouldn't doubt either after reading your posts.[/quote] [img]http://www.ocregister.com/newsimages/show/2005/07/15charlie.jpg[/img] "You should really stop mumbling, it's hard to understand what you are saying" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted October 3, 2007 Report Share Posted October 3, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='562977' date='Oct 3 2007, 11:32 AM'][img]http://www.ocregister.com/newsimages/show/2005/07/15charlie.jpg[/img] "You should really stop mumbling, it's hard to understand what you are saying"[/quote] You OK? You're not back on the bottle are you? No seriously, half the shit you post doesn't even make sense...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 [quote name='IKOTA' post='563239' date='Oct 3 2007, 04:27 PM']You OK? You're not back on the bottle are you?[/quote] "I do have a back problems, maybe Rush can hook me up with some of that Oxycontin" [quote]No seriously, half the shit you post doesn't even make sense......[/quote] [quote]Then please expound on where I am wrong. That is all that I am asking. You can't just say "Your wrong" and leave it at that; this is just a "drive-by" remark. You have admitted that your knowledge is lacking; due to your youth ("in my 20's"). When I was in my 20's, more than half the Bible didn't make sense to me; even though I thought is was the greatest book ever. Now, I have been blessed with comprehension and understanding what it iIS about.[/quote] [i]Is the Quran preserved?[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='563490' date='Oct 4 2007, 08:38 AM']"I do have a back problems, maybe Rush can hook me up with some of that Oxycontin" [i]Is the Quran preserved?[/i][/quote] Your red herrings aren't going to work. Do the research from UNBIASED sources (hint: CARM is biased) .........I will tell you this though: --Allah is not from the moon god..........stop with the lies already. --The Quran has NEVER changed and NEVER will change (By this I mean the Arabic, of course the English translation by different people can vary). There are people who memorize it for this purpose....millions of people have it memorized and that has been the case for many hundreds of years. --The Hadith and Sunnah of the Prophet has a strict chain of narration as to where the person telling it had to be deemed credible through various methods. OK, now bring on your misinformation which will be in blue right? And your opinion italicized right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 [quote name='IKOTA' post='563581' date='Oct 4 2007, 11:11 AM']Your red herrings aren't going to work. Do the research from UNBIASED sources (hint: CARM is biased) .........I will tell you this though: --Allah is not from the moon god..........stop with the lies already. --The Quran has NEVER changed and NEVER will change (By this I mean the Arabic, of course the English translation by different people can vary). There are people who memorize it for this purpose....millions of people have it memorized and that has been the case for many hundreds of years. --The Hadith and Sunnah of the Prophet has a strict chain of narration as to where the person telling it had to be deemed credible through various methods. OK, now bring on your misinformation which will be in blue right? And your opinion italicized right?[/quote] [i]Now, we are getting somewhere: Is CARM bias? YES it is. CARM stands for Christian Apologetic Research Ministries, I emphasize the word RESEARCH. The site pulls research from various sources to include some individuals which deem tthemselves secular at best, meaning they hold no position on chrisitianity and only present empirical data substantial to the facts. For example:On the subject of Creationism, CARM has recieved permission from these individuals to use their collected materials. What you really are trying to say is that since CARM is bias; any and all of information should be dismissed! I say that this is subjective and be left up to the viewer to decide and if unsure as to what is being offered, research through alternative sources.[/i] [quote]--Allah is not from the moon god..........stop with the lies already.[/quote] [i]First off, I am not lying, I am simplying presenting what I have researched from others. As you do not accept what I am saying; I do not accepting the teachings of Islam on face value .[/i] [url="http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm"]http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm[/url] [i]Disclaimer: Yes this is a christian devoted sight, but only one of many secular/non-secular sites that can be found on the subject.[/i] [color="#000080"]Archaeologists have uncovered temples to the Moon-god throughout the Middle East. From the mountains of Turkey to the banks of the Nile, the most wide-spread religion of the ancient world was the worship of the Moon-god. In the first literate civilization, the Sumerians have left us thousands of clay tablets in which they described their religious beliefs. As demonstrated by Sjoberg and Hall, the ancient Sumerians worshipped a Moon-god who was called many different names. The most popular names were Nanna, Suen and Asimbabbar. His symbol was the crescent moon. Given the amount of artifacts concerning the worship of this Moon-god, it is clear that this was the dominant religion in Sumeria. The cult of the Moon-god was the most popular religion throughout ancient Mesopotamia.[/color] [img]http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/images/muslim.jpg[/img] [i]The moon god from all four sides, notice the cresent moon carved on his chest.[/i] [i]The Assyrians, Babylonians, and the Akkadians took the word Suen and transformed it into the word Sin as their favorite name for the Moon-god. As Prof. Potts pointed out, "Sin is a name essentially Sumerian in origin which had been borrowed by the Semites. " In ancient Syria and Canna, the Moon-god Sin was usually represented by [b]the moon in its crescent phase[/b][/i] [color="#000080"]In Old Testament times, Nabonidus (555-539 BC), the last king of Babylon, built Tayma, Arabia as a center of Moon-god worship. Segall stated, "South Arabia's stellar religion has always been dominated by the Moon-god in various variations." Many scholars have also noticed that the Moon-god's name "Sin" is a part of such Arabic words as "Sinai," the "wilderness of Sin," etc. When the popularity of the Moon-god waned elsewhere, the Arabs remained true to their conviction that the Moon-god was the greatest of all gods. While they worshipped 360 gods at the Kabah in Mecca, the Moon-god was the chief deity. Mecca was in fact built as a shrine for the Moon-god. This is what made it the most sacred site of Arabian paganism. In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidha, that she had uncovered a temple of the Moon-god in southern Arabia. The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than twenty-one inscriptions with the name Sin were found in this temple. An idol which may be the Moon-god himself was also discovered. [u]This was later confirmed by other well-known archeologists.[/u] The evidence reveals that the temple of the Moon-god was active even in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrate that Moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult. According to numerous inscriptions, [u]while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al- ilah, i.e. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods[/u]. As Coon pointed out, "The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." [color="#000080"]The Moon-god was called al- ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times.[/color] The pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave to their children. For example, both Muhammad's father and uncle had Allah as part of their names.[/color] Surprise!!! This did not come from CARM; but the content of information and findings revolves around archeological digs. [color="#000080"]The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc. The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel.[/color] [quote]--The Quran has NEVER changed and NEVER will change (By this I mean the Arabic, of course the English translation by different people can vary). [b] There are people who memorize it for this purpose....millions of people have it memorized and that has been the case for many hundreds of years[/b].[/quote] [i]Is the Quran preserved? What I am asking, has the Quran been corrupted or does this only pertain to the Bible and Torah?[/i] [i]I am not looking for a quote from the Quran! That would be like telling you I am right because I say so.[/i] [i]The reason for memorization process is due to literacy in the region during the periods of Muhhamad. We are told that Muhammad was unable to read or write, plausible but I do not fully buy it and I believe this in part to embelish Muhammad's stature seeing that he failed to produce a miracle.[/i] [quote]--The Hadith and Sunnah of the Prophet has a strict chain of narration as to where the person telling it had to be deemed credible through various methods.[/quote] [i]Only sixth-graders may read "Catcher in the Rye"; Fifth-graders and below need not apply.[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|BlackJesus| Posted October 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 [center][size=5][quote name='Lawman' post='563649' date='Oct 4 2007, 01:40 PM']Moon-god[/quote][/size] [color="#FF8C00"][size=4][b]Meet the Sun-God ... [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/23.gif[/img][/b][/size][/color] [/center] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='563649' date='Oct 4 2007, 03:10 PM'][i]Now, we are getting somewhere: Is CARM bias? YES it is. CARM stands for Christian Apologetic Research Ministries, I emphasize the word RESEARCH. The site pulls research from various sources to include some individuals which deem tthemselves secular at best, meaning they hold no position on chrisitianity and only present empirical data substantial to the facts. For example:On the subject of Creationism, CARM has recieved permission from these individuals to use their collected materials. What you really are trying to say is that since CARM is bias; any and all of information should be dismissed! I say that this is subjective and be left up to the viewer to decide and if unsure as to what is being offered, research through alternative sources.[/i] [i]First off, I am not lying, I am simplying presenting what I have researched from others. As you do not accept what I am saying; I do not accepting the teachings of Islam on face value .[/i] [url="http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm"]http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm[/url] [i]Disclaimer: Yes this is a christian devoted sight, but only one of many secular/non-secular sites that can be found on the subject.[/i] [color="#000080"]Archaeologists have uncovered temples to the Moon-god throughout the Middle East. From the mountains of Turkey to the banks of the Nile, the most wide-spread religion of the ancient world was the worship of the Moon-god. In the first literate civilization, the Sumerians have left us thousands of clay tablets in which they described their religious beliefs. As demonstrated by Sjoberg and Hall, the ancient Sumerians worshipped a Moon-god who was called many different names. The most popular names were Nanna, Suen and Asimbabbar. His symbol was the crescent moon. Given the amount of artifacts concerning the worship of this Moon-god, it is clear that this was the dominant religion in Sumeria. The cult of the Moon-god was the most popular religion throughout ancient Mesopotamia.[/color] [img]http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/images/muslim.jpg[/img] [i]The moon god from all four sides, notice the cresent moon carved on his chest.[/i] [i]The Assyrians, Babylonians, and the Akkadians took the word Suen and transformed it into the word Sin as their favorite name for the Moon-god. As Prof. Potts pointed out, "Sin is a name essentially Sumerian in origin which had been borrowed by the Semites. " In ancient Syria and Canna, the Moon-god Sin was usually represented by [b]the moon in its crescent phase[/b][/i] [color="#000080"]In Old Testament times, Nabonidus (555-539 BC), the last king of Babylon, built Tayma, Arabia as a center of Moon-god worship. Segall stated, "South Arabia's stellar religion has always been dominated by the Moon-god in various variations." Many scholars have also noticed that the Moon-god's name "Sin" is a part of such Arabic words as "Sinai," the "wilderness of Sin," etc. When the popularity of the Moon-god waned elsewhere, the Arabs remained true to their conviction that the Moon-god was the greatest of all gods. While they worshipped 360 gods at the Kabah in Mecca, the Moon-god was the chief deity. Mecca was in fact built as a shrine for the Moon-god. This is what made it the most sacred site of Arabian paganism. In 1944, G. Caton Thompson revealed in her book, The Tombs and Moon Temple of Hureidha, that she had uncovered a temple of the Moon-god in southern Arabia. The symbols of the crescent moon and no less than twenty-one inscriptions with the name Sin were found in this temple. An idol which may be the Moon-god himself was also discovered. [u]This was later confirmed by other well-known archeologists.[/u] The evidence reveals that the temple of the Moon-god was active even in the Christian era. Evidence gathered from both North and South Arabia demonstrate that Moon-god worship was clearly active even in Muhammad's day and was still the dominant cult. According to numerous inscriptions, [u]while the name of the Moon-god was Sin, his title was al- ilah, i.e. "the deity," meaning that he was the chief or high god among the gods[/u]. As Coon pointed out, "The god Il or Ilah was originally a phase of the Moon God." [color="#000080"]The Moon-god was called al- ilah, i.e. the god, which was shortened to Allah in pre-Islamic times.[/color] The pagan Arabs even used Allah in the names they gave to their children. For example, both Muhammad's father and uncle had Allah as part of their names.[/color] Surprise!!! This did not come from CARM; but the content of information and findings revolves around archeological digs. [color="#000080"]The pagan Arabs worshipped the Moon-god Allah by praying toward Mecca several times a day; making a pilgrimage to Mecca; running around the temple of the Moon-god called the Kabah; kissing the black stone; killing an animal in sacrifice to the Moon-god; throwing stones at the devil; fasting for the month which begins and ends with the crescent moon; giving alms to the poor, etc. The Muslim's claim that Allah is the God of the Bible and that Islam arose from the religion of the prophets and apostles is refuted by solid, overwhelming archeological evidence. Islam is nothing more than a revival of the ancient Moon-god cult. It has taken the symbols, the rites, the ceremonies, and even the name of its god from the ancient pagan religion of the Moon-god. As such, it is sheer idolatry and must be rejected by all those who follow the Torah and Gospel.[/color] [i]Is the Quran preserved? What I am asking, has the Quran been corrupted or does this only pertain to the Bible and Torah?[/i] [i]I am not looking for a quote from the Quran! That would be like telling you I am right because I say so.[/i] [i]The reason for memorization process is due to literacy in the region during the periods of Muhhamad. We are told that Muhammad was unable to read or write, plausible but I do not fully buy it and I believe this in part to embelish Muhammad's stature seeing that he failed to produce a miracle.[/i] [i]Only sixth-graders may read "Catcher in the Rye"; Fifth-graders and below need not apply.[/i][/quote] Wow, just wow. I'm so glad you're here to educate me about all this.......I mean..........what would I do without you? You interesting fellow you. And all that you "referenced" above, is inaccurate.....simply put......lies. Lies you continue to choose to believe because that's what you WANT to hear. It's human nature so don't feel all that bad. [quote][i]The reason for memorization process is due to literacy in the region during the periods of Muhhamad. We are told that Muhammad was unable to read or write, plausible but I do not fully buy it and I believe this in part to embelish Muhammad's stature seeing that he failed to produce a miracle.[/i] [i]Only sixth-graders may read "Catcher in the Rye"; Fifth-graders and below need not apply.[/i][/quote] Hahahahahahah......you make me laugh at least. Everything about the quoted words is hillarious!!! Again, I thank you dearly for educating me on all this stuff. You know, now that I think about it...I should go and educate myself on Islam by going to such sites as www.biblebelievers.com [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawman Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 [quote]Wow, just wow. I'm so glad you're here to educate me about all this.......I mean..........what would I do without you? You interesting fellow you. [b]And all that you "referenced" above, is inaccurate.....simply put......lies. Lies you continue to choose to believe because that's what you WANT to hear. It's human nature so don't feel all that bad. [/b] Hahahahahahah......you make me laugh at least. Everything about the quoted words is hillarious!!! Again, I thank you dearly for educating me on all this stuff. You know, now that I think about it...I should go and educate myself on Islam by going to such sites as www.biblebelievers.com[/quote] [i]Yes, archeologist are running around digging up lies everyday.[/i] [url="http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm"]How about a neutral site[/url] [color="#8B0000"]Disclaimer: The text above has been edited from my original post for proper identification purposes.[/color] [img]http://z.about.com/d/islam/1/0/f/4/starmoon_yellow.jpg[/img] [i]Is the Quran preserved?[/i] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khatmandude Posted October 4, 2007 Report Share Posted October 4, 2007 [quote name='Lawman' post='563766' date='Oct 4 2007, 06:46 PM'][i]Yes, archeologist are running around digging up lies everyday.[/i] [url="http://islam.about.com/od/history/a/crescent_moon.htm"]How about a neutral site[/url] [color="#8B0000"]Disclaimer: The text above has been edited from my original post for proper identification purposes.[/color] [img]http://z.about.com/d/islam/1/0/f/4/starmoon_yellow.jpg[/img] [i]Is the Quran preserved?[/i][/quote] Are you an idiot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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