So how long till Muslim arm patches ? --- (WTF)

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='564691' date='Oct 7 2007, 03:04 PM']Well this has certainly been entertaining! But what I really want to know is:

Is the Bengals playbook [i]preserved?[/i][/quote]



God I hope not!

[Lawman]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='564691' date='Oct 7 2007, 03:04 PM']Well this has certainly been entertaining! But what I really want to know is:

Is the Bengals playbook [i]preserved?[/i][/quote]
[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img]

[i]Now excuse me Bung, someonehas been calling me names and it's not BJ so they must be dealt with appropriately
and promply.

I know you have a post in response, in the meanwhile please see "My Son's going to church" thread.[/i]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='564691' date='Oct 7 2007, 03:04 PM']Well this has certainly been entertaining! But what I really want to know is:

Is the Bengals playbook [i]preserved?[/i][/quote]


[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/24.gif[/img]

It may explain some things. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/39.gif[/img]

[Khatmandude]

Wow, miss a day here and you miss alot.

Anyways, there are 3 or 4 discussions going on within this thread......and quite entertaining ones at that (besides the USN and Homer hugfest ).

All I want to say (and I realize that people understand this already) is that Lawman is full of shit when he posts 99.9% of things about Islam. That is the only field of "expertise" I have that is being discussed in this thread. I don't know what his motive is but he only makes himself seem foolish IMO. If Lawman wants me to be "saved" then I regret to inform him that I will not accept Jesus as my savior. Jesus was one of the best of men to walk this earth and I have great respect for Jesus and it bothers me when others speak negatively about him. I respect Christians, Jews, etc.....and don't feel the need to try to falsely accuse their religions of misbehavior to try to convert them as I know a true Christian's behavior is seperate from what people do in the name of Christianity and that goes for all faiths. Men of understanding...........well...... understand this.

And yes, I may only be in my 20's but I pray to Allah (and yes, actually Allah simply means God in Arabic) that I don't end up like Lawman has demonstrated himself to be. I choose to call Him Allah, others may call Him Yahweh etc... but we ALL worship the SAME God. Telling oneself otherwise doesn't change this. I am secure in my faith and the more I question it and knowledge I seek, the more I am reaffirmed in it. By falsely accusing Islam of this or that due to someone who calls themself a Muslim doing something unrighteous is not going to change this. I hope that people would have enough sense that if they wanted to truly and sincerely know something about Islam, then come to me or another Muslim first before taking deragatory sites to be "gospel".

[Lawman]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='564241' date='Oct 5 2007, 07:26 PM']LOL. Today must be the day for asking me about people I have never heard of![/quote]

Forget it, I was just exploring and somethings you have stated in the past wich resonated with Twitchel's
teachings on 'ancient science's' and their golden teachings:

[color="#000080"]The Light and Sound of God together are the Voice of God. In scriptures we know It as [b]the Word or Logos[/b]. In other words, it's God speaking from beyond creation to Its creation.[/color]



[i]Now, I can't recall how I got there. It must of been Beelzebub tempting me [/i]

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote]we ALL worship the SAME God[/quote]

the one detail that always seems to get overlooked.

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='564746' date='Oct 7 2007, 04:53 PM']Wow, miss a day here and you miss alot.

Anyways, there are 3 or 4 discussions going on within this thread......and quite entertaining ones at that (besides the USN and Homer hugfest ).

All I want to say (and I realize that people understand this already) is that Lawman is full of shit when he posts 99.9% of things about Islam. That is the only field of "expertise" I have that is being discussed in this thread. I don't know what his motive is but he only makes himself seem foolish IMO. If Lawman wants me to be "saved" then I regret to inform him that I will not accept Jesus as my savior. Jesus was one of the best of men to walk this earth and I have great respect for Jesus and it bothers me when others speak negatively about him. I respect Christians, Jews, etc.....and don't feel the need to try to falsely accuse their religions of misbehavior to try to convert them as I know a true Christian's behavior is seperate from what people do in the name of Christianity and that goes for all faiths. Men of understanding...........well...... understand this.

And yes, I may only be in my 20's but I pray to Allah (and yes, actually Allah simply means God in Arabic) that I don't end up like Lawman has demonstrated himself to be. I choose to call Him Allah, others may call Him Yahweh etc... but we ALL worship the SAME God. Telling oneself otherwise doesn't change this. I am secure in my faith and the more I question it and knowledge I seek, the more I am reaffirmed in it. By falsely accusing Islam of this or that due to someone who calls themself a Muslim doing something unrighteous is not going to change this. I hope that people would have enough sense that if they wanted to truly and sincerely know something about Islam, then come to me or another Muslim first before taking deragatory sites to be "gospel".[/quote]

God Bless you Ikota, you're a good man.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='564788' date='Oct 7 2007, 06:01 PM']God Bless you Ikota, you're a good man.[/quote]


Having had lunch with him, I can attest to that.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='564788' date='Oct 7 2007, 04:01 PM']God Bless you Ikota, you're a good man.[/quote]
Having eaten some traditional Pakistani fare that he brought to me at my place of work that his wife cooked, I can testify to his goodness.
Now, don't bother asking WhoyDeyUK's opinion on this matter, because he and Ikota went to Amsterdam together.
You know, just to drink coffee.
Allah likes his subjects to be "coffee drinkers".

[Lawman]

[b]DISCLAIMER: I invite all to review the thread I posted "My Son's going to church". Please pay particular attention to the Virginia Statue on Religous Freedom. If you which for me to elaborate, please ask. Unlike Islam, I have no problem answering the hard questions; if I can. I have not and will not pretend to give an answer
when I don't know; I can only comment on what I have researched/studied.

To all, I will not be answering your responses seperately, but I will attempt to address within this disposition[/[/b]

[i]First; I am not perfect and I do not have all of the answers. I have never made such a claim; perception is one thing
but I have never uttered such nonsense. That would foolish of me to do so. I am an apologist for the christian faith, defending against attacks through miss-interpatations and outright lies. Iam not worthy of evangelism.

Some have attempted to provide bible passages in order to silence me or at least place constraints on me. To them
I can only surmise that the church they attend omits any mention of HELL at all. This is common practice amongst
some church's in the west in ordering to recruit and/or maintain attendance levels. Again, because I believe it is
worth it I present[/i]: [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wurmbrand"]Richard Wurmbrand[/url]

[i]please read this man's story.

People we are on an internet forum message board. Yes, sometimes it feels like we are all hanging out together, however distant we physically are. I have not judged any individual based on their personal habita/lifestyle, I have placed ISLAM on notice; I have accused Islam to be a militarlistic/political ideology cloaked as a religon and I stand by that statement. I am willing to expose the lie of Islam. I have defended the attacks on Christianity within this forum time after time and now I am ready to show what is an impending danger within our society.

In respect to IKOTA and moderate muslims; the radical fundamentalist have taken your religon back to the 7th century.

Yes, I know your argument is that these passages are in reference to war, somehow the jihadist didn't get the memo:

The Quran requires violence. Sura 9:5 says,

Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every strategem of war.

Sura 5:33 records what is done to infidels who resist Islam:

Their punishment is...execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite sides, or exile from the land

[color="#000080"]Jihad was so important to the founder of Islam, Muhammad, that he declared it to be the second most important deed in Islam.

"Allah's apostle was asked, 'What is the best deed?' He replied, 'To believe in Allah and his Apostle.' The questioner then asked, 'What is the next (in goodness)?' He replied, 'To participate in Jihad (religious fighting) in Allah's cause.'" – The Hadith, Al Bukhari, Vol. 1 no 25.

Muslims are forbidden to befriend Jews or Christians: "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is one of them . . ." Surah 5:54. [/color]

[i]Am I loud, maybe. I really don't see it. If I am percived to be an in-your-face kinda of guy thats probably because I have taken the approach of the greatest Saint and the first Martyr in the name of Christ, John the Baptist. Before one try's it, I am not saying anything as comparing myself with this true Saint. Additionally, I believe the effect I am having on some revolves around that softing effect that Americans have been accustomed to, due to Political Correctness which I have spoken out on.

For those that have I dentified with my position and provided support, I thank you. I know there may be some that also see my truths, but will not speak up on my behalf and may feel bad, It's ok. "It is easier for people to swallow a lie before the truth, because the truth comes with a large dose of reality" Disclaimer: I may have messed this saying up, but I do not know who said it and these are the words that came to me without researching.

Some say I display signs of bigotry and I am personally attacking Ikota; YOU ARE WRONG. I have accused IKOTA of avoiding questions, which as a muslim, the answers should be made readily available. He has failed to produce.[/i]

Is the Quran preserved? [/i]
[i]Who is Zul-Qarnain?
Who is Isa al Maish?[/i]

[i]Yes, these are problem questions, but at least he should have an answer. To say that the Koran is grammatically correct and preserved just as it was written is incorrect. Experts are correcting the grammacial writings in Arabic today. Actually, this is not even the essence of the question I am asking.

Zul-Qarnain is said to be "Alexander the Great", why is this so relevant? Because it was a question that was posed to Muhammad, by Meccans as giving to them by "The people of the Book" (Christians) in the form of a test; and he failed miserably. Modern Scholars will say it is someone else; however evidence is clear that the title of Zul Qarnian
was pre Quranic, given to Alexander by the Egyptians.[/i]

[i]Additionally, from the Quran 18:86 When he Zul-Qarnain reached the setting of the sun, he found that it set in a
pond of murky water. Other than how ridiculous this sounds, what is scientifically implied here is that the earth is flat.[/i]

[i]Alexander the Great was not a muslim and he did not practice monotheism, unless you imply he thought himself as a god.[/i]

[i]What does the bible say:[/i]
"[color="#000080"]He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in" (Isaiah 40:22[/color]

[i]Isa al maish is Jesus the Messiah. It is important to understand the implication of annointing such a title. This is not a title for a prophet but one more revered. Jesus spoke for the Jewish scriptures and he alluded to God as Adonai Elohim "Lord of the Jews" not Allah[/i].

[i]The Quran is not preserved.[/i]

[b]On Allah[/b]
[color="#000080"]The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics says this:

The origin of this (Allah) goes back to PRE-Muslim times. Allah is NOT a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity.

Allah was a pre-existing god. He was well known to Muhammad's Quraysh tribe. Scholars quickly point out that Allah was one of the names used for the MOON god who was married to the sun goddess. Together they produced three goddesses who were called "the daughters of Allah. Their names were Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Manat. These were considered high gods--at the top of the plethora of Arabian deities. Muhammad's father's literal Arabic name was Abd-Allah. His uncle's name was Obied-Allah. His family was devoted to the moon god for at least two generations before Muhammad. The Arabian pagans prayed towards Mecca because that is where their idols/gods were sitting. Since Allah was one of the idols in the Kabah it only made sense to turn toward their god and pray. Praying toward Mecca continues to this day.

Allah is clearly not the God of the Bible. He is an Arabian idol that sat in the Kabah with a bunch of other idols. The pagans prayed in the direction of Mecca because that is where their gods (including Allah) resided heaped on top of each other in the Kabah. This is not news to educated Muslims, they generally understand this point. Allah is the moon god, that's probably why there is the crescent moon and star on the Muslim flag.[/color]

[i]This is getting very lengthy and as much I believe necessary, I believe my efforts to be futile and fall on deaf ears.[/i]

[i]To LoyalFaninGA, if I may borrowed from "A few Good Men[/i]":

[b]You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with Bibles. Who's gonna do it? You? You, sir? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for missunderstanding of Islam and you curse christians. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that the possible waterboarding of KSM, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, courage and commitment...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a bible or Quran and educate yourself. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think of me!.[/b]

[i]BTW, do you kiss your mother with that potty-mouth? I forgive your transgression and God Bless You.[/i]

[Lawman]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='564746' date='Oct 7 2007, 04:53 PM']Wow, miss a day here and you miss alot.

Anyways, there are 3 or 4 discussions going on within this thread......and quite entertaining ones at that (besides the USN and Homer hugfest ).

All I want to say (and I realize that people understand this already) is that Lawman is full of shit when he posts 99.9% of things about Islam. That is the only field of "expertise" I have that is being discussed in this thread. I don't know what his motive is but he only makes himself seem foolish IMO. If Lawman wants me to be "saved" then I regret to inform him that I will not accept Jesus as my savior. Jesus was one of the best of men to walk this earth and I have great respect for Jesus and it bothers me when others speak negatively about him. I respect Christians, Jews, etc.....and don't feel the need to try to falsely accuse their religions of misbehavior to try to convert them as I know a true Christian's behavior is seperate from what people do in the name of Christianity and that goes for all faiths. Men of understanding...........well...... understand this.

And yes, I may only be in my 20's but I pray to Allah (and yes, actually Allah simply means God in Arabic) that I don't end up like Lawman has demonstrated himself to be. I choose to call Him Allah, others may call Him Yahweh etc... but we ALL worship the SAME God. Telling oneself otherwise doesn't change this. I am secure in my faith and the more I question it and knowledge I seek, the more I am reaffirmed in it. By falsely accusing Islam of this or that due to someone who calls themself a Muslim doing something unrighteous is not going to change this. I hope that people would have enough sense that if they wanted to truly and sincerely know something about Islam, then come to me or another Muslim first before taking deragatory sites to be "gospel".[/quote]

IKOTA, I 've said my piece and I am done, for now. Others are saying great things about you and I am sure you are a good guy and all and maybe someday we may meet. I believe what I believe based on extensive research of historical documentation as recorded.

I have met muslims in several cordial circumstances, I fell in love with Lamb over rice pilaf in Turkey. I was treated to
a couple beers on the house while eating my first 'shwarma"(chk sp) in Antwerp. but most importantly, their hospitality
stood out and above anything else.

It does matter to me, that you do not accept Jesus as your personal savior. Jesus in Islam is not the same as taught in Christianity, this is the most important point I was trying to make. If you cannot accept that, so be it. Maybe, someday you will see the truth in my words, god willing. God Bless.

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='564788' date='Oct 7 2007, 07:31 PM']God Bless you Ikota, you're a good man.[/quote]

Thank you sir

[quote name='Bunghole' post='564843' date='Oct 7 2007, 08:54 PM']Having eaten some traditional Pakistani fare that he brought to me at my place of work that his wife cooked, I can testify to his goodness.
Now, don't bother asking WhoyDeyUK's opinion on this matter, because he and Ikota went to Amsterdam together.
You know, just to drink coffee.
Allah likes his subjects to be "coffee drinkers".[/quote]

I have my vices and enjoying "coffee" once in a while is one of them.

[quote name='Lawman' post='564884' date='Oct 7 2007, 10:08 PM']IKOTA, I 've said my piece and I am done, for now. Others are saying great things about you and I am sure you are a good guy and all and maybe someday we may meet. I believe what I believe based on extensive research of historical documentation as recorded.

I have met muslims in several cordial circumstances, I fell in love with Lamb over rice pilaf in Turkey. I was treated to
a couple beers on the house while eating my first 'shwarma"(chk sp) in Antwerp. but most importantly, their hospitality
stood out and above anything else.

It does matter to me, that you do not accept Jesus as your personal savior. Jesus in Islam is not the same as taught in Christianity, this is the most important point I was trying to make. If you cannot accept that, so be it. [b]Maybe, someday you will see the truth in my words,[/b] god willing. God Bless.[/quote]

It is hard to see the truth coming from one who deceives on a regular basis and with such tenacity. I feel pity for you that you let your personal bias point you towards untruths. Do you honestly think that your "extensive research" is objective and accurate? I'll answer that for you.....it's not. You fail to realize some very fundamental things which make me question many things about you. The more you post, the more my suspicions seem correct.

[Lawman]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='564934' date='Oct 7 2007, 11:06 PM']Thank you sir
[b]I have my vices and enjoying "coffee" once in a while is one of them.[/b]
It is hard to see the truth coming from one who deceives on a regular basis and with such tenacity. I feel pity for you that you let your personal bias point you towards untruths. Do you honestly think that your "extensive research" is objective and accurate? I'll answer that for you.....it's not. You fail to realize some very fundamental things which make me question many things about you. The more you post, the more my suspicions seem correct.[/quote]

[i]Yes, I enjoy my coffee also.[/i]

[b]DISCLAIMER: I am not using my normal method of posting in this reply for the purpose of promoting comprehensive reading. Comprehensive reading, now that's a novel idea. The following is from AnsweringIslam.[/b]

[i]The Quran commands the Muslims to believe in the previous Revelations:[/i]

[i]who believe in what is revealed to thee (Muhammad), and what was revealed before thee, and of the hereafter they are sure. Q2:4

The Apostle (Muhammad) believes in what is sent down to him from his Lord, and the believers (Muslims) all believe on God, and His angels, and His Books, and His apostles,- we make no difference between any of His apostles,- they say, 'We hear and obey, Thy pardon, O Lord! for to Thee our journey tends. Q2:285

Say (O Muslims), 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to thee, and what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and what was given to Moses, and Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord,- we will make no distinction between any of them,- and we are unto Him resigned. Q3:84[/i]

[i]These previous Revelations include the following:[/i]

[i]We did reveal the [b]Torah[/b] (Tawrat), wherein is guidance and a light ... Q5:44

And already have we written in the [b]Psalms [/b](Zabur) after the reminder that the earth shall my righteous servants inherit.' Q21:105

Subsequent to them, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the [b]Gospel (Injil)[/b], containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous. Q5:46[/i]

[i]Let us summarize the claims that were presented so far:[/i]

[u]1)The Quran is preserved.
2)God’s Revelations which preceded the Quran include the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel.
3)These Books make up a large portion of the Holy Bible.
4)The Quran, the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are all the Word of Allah.
5)God's Word does not change.
6)The revelations that came before the Quran have become corrupted.
7)Although Muslims should believe that these previous Books are the genuine Revelations from God,
they have to trust only the Quran as the final revelation and the only one that is preserved. [/u]

[i]We now have to deal with this logic:[/i]

[b]The Quran, the Torah, the Psalms and the Gospel are all Allah’s Word. [/b]
[u]The current Torah, Psalms and Gospel are corrupted. [/u]

[b]The final word of Allah, the Quran is preserved.[/b]
[i]1st Conclusion: Some of Allah’s Words are corrupted
2nd Conclusion: Some of Allah’s Words are preserved.[/i]

[i]Based on the above generalizations we can construct these deductive arguments:[/i]

[b]Major premise: Some of Allah’s Words are corrupted.
Minor premise: The Quran is Allah’s Word.
Conclusion: The Quran could be corrupted.[/b]

[i]Or we could do it another way:[/i]

[i]Major premise: Some of Allah’s Words are preserved.
Minor premise: The Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are Allah’s Words.[/i]
[b]Conclusion: The Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel could be preserved[/b]

[i]Since Allah allowed his previous Revelations to be corrupted by weak human people, this leads to one of the following assumptions about Allah[/i]:

[b]Allah is a weak god[/b]; [u]he could not protect his previous Revelations. He also gains more power and might throughout time, because he supposedly is now able to protect his last revelation, the Quran.[/u]

[b]Allah does not care about people being misled by counterfeit revelations[/b]. [i]And yet he will still punish individuals with hell fire because they follow a corrupted Message even though they may have not come to the realization that Allah had allowed it to be corrupted.[/i] [b]That means Allah is unjust[/b].

[i]IKOTA, you have to make a decision and choose one of these alternatives:[/i]

[i]1)The Quran is preserved and the earlier Revelations are corrupted. In that case, Allah is either weak or he is unjust. That is the only explanation for his preservation of the Quran and letting people corrupt his previous Revelations.
2)The Quran is corrupted like the other Revelations. Then you should either not read it since you do not read other corrupted Revelations, or maybe you should read these other corrupted Revelations just as you insist on reading the corrupted Quran.
3)The Quran is preserved, and the previous Revelations have also been preserved. That means then you should read these authentic Revelations (the Bible) for yourself.
4)The Quran is corrupted but the earlier Revelations are preserved. Obviously, you should then abandon the Quran and read the Bible[/i]

[quote]It is hard to see the truth coming from one who deceives on a regular basis and with such tenacity[/quote]

"[u]Outwitting" and [/u][i]Taqiyya’ (not manifesting the faith openly)[/i]

Contrary to the universal and basic teachings of all religions, Shiaism teaches its followers to conceal their faith and hide their beliefs.[/b] Two of their basic beliefs known as ‘Kithman’ and ‘[b]Taqiyya’ [/b]are primarily designed to achieve just such a purpose. The belief in ‘Kithman’ commands the Shias to conceal their religion from the non-Shias. The following two Hadith from the sixth Shia Imam clearly elaborate this point:

[i]Imam Jafar Sadiq ® said: [i]"One, who exposes something from our religion is like one who intentionally kills us[/i]." {Ft. #1 Usool al Kafi, p.88}
Imam Jafar Sadiq ® said: "You belong to a religion that whosoever conceals it, Allah will honour him and whosoever reveals it, Allah will disgrace him." {Ft. #2, Ibid, p.522} [/i]

[i]Furthermore the belief in ‘Taqiyya’ commits the Shias to put up a hypocritical show and to act in such a way that the non-Shias may never be exposed to the real Shiaism. [b]It even allows them to tell a lie if their intention is to hide their religion from the non-Shias (Non-believers)[/b]. The following Shia Ahadis testify clearly to this effect:
Imam Jafar Sadi ® said: "Associate your opponents only outwardly and oppose them inwardly." {Ft. #1, Usool al Kafi, p.244} [/i]

[i]Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes’ and your ‘No’ be ‘No’ anything else comes from the evil one" (Matthew 5:37)

"Do not lie to each other" (Pauls letter to the Colossians 3:9)[/i]

[Khatmandude]

You've got to be kidding me........please tell me you're kidding. Do you not have a brain which to use? Dear God, make it stop.

You know about 3.5% of what you are talking about. The other 96.5% of things you post are used out of context and historical significance and background reading is completely, utterly ignored..........why so Lawman? Oh, because the argument you make would seem rather weak if it wasn't. If you're going to try to convert me, at least use accurate information. Again, I shake my head at the level deceit by which you attempt to operate...rather sad. I'm getting close to the point now where I stop playing nice. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

Also, referencing where you get the untruths from is a must when "internet debating". Why do you not do this? Why not put everything that is not your own words into quotes and everything else leave plain text? I mean, you go through the effort to italicize and make blue and yada yada yada but you have not followed simple rules for posting your own words and someone else's words and that is mind boggling. Everyone else does it this simple way, why not you?

edit: Answeringislam -->Another objective website where untruths are spread and gobbled up ... which by the way has been debunked over and over......why not mention the website that's debunked it Lawman and let people decide which one is true?

For further objective reading on Islam, I highly recommend:
1 - www.DieMoslems.org
2 - www.Iwanttostopyoufromburninginhellsoconverttomyreligionyoufilthyarab.com
3 - www.islam-uslam-weallslam4islam.com
4 - www.convertingmuslims2christianityfordummies.org

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='565148' date='Oct 8 2007, 12:00 PM']I'm getting close to the point now where I stop playing nice. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.[/quote]

[img]http://kashmiri.typepad.com/kashmirs_shak/images/hulk6.jpg[/img]

[quote]For further objective reading on Islam, I highly recommend:
1 - www.DieMoslems.org
2 - www.Iwanttostopyoufromburninginhellsoconverttomyreligionyoufilthyarab.com
3 - www.islam-uslam-weallslam4islam.com
4 - www.convertingmuslims2christianityfordummies.org[/quote]

I don't care who you are, that's funny as hell right there.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='565148' date='Oct 8 2007, 12:00 PM']3 - www.islam-uslam-weallslam4islam.com[/quote]

[|Bunghole|]

[b]For further objective reading on Islam, I highly recommend:
1 - www.DieMoslems.org
2 - www.Iwanttostopyoufromburninginhellsoconverttomyreligionyoufilthyarab.com
3 - www.islam-uslam-weallslam4islam.com
4 - www.convertingmuslims2christianityfordummies.org[/b]

Now who's the spreader of untruth? NONE of those fucking links even work!

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='565271' date='Oct 8 2007, 03:02 PM'][b]For further objective reading on Islam, I highly recommend:
1 - www.DieMoslems.org
2 - www.Iwanttostopyoufromburninginhellsoconverttomyreligionyoufilthyarab.com
3 - www.islam-uslam-weallslam4islam.com
4 - www.convertingmuslims2christianityfordummies.org[/b]

Now who's the spreader of untruth? NONE of those fucking links even work!
[/quote]

[Lawman]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='565148' date='Oct 8 2007, 12:00 PM']You've got to be kidding me........please tell me you're kidding. Do you not have a brain which to use? Dear God, make it stop.

Oh, because the argument you make would seem rather weak if it wasn't. If you're going to try to convert me, at least use accurate information. Again, I shake my head at the level deceit by which you attempt to operate...rather sad. I'm getting close to the point now where I stop playing nice. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

Also, referencing where you get the untruths from is a must when "internet debating". Why do you not do this? Why not put everything that is not your own words into quotes and everything else leave plain text? I mean, you go through the effort to italicize and make blue and yada yada yada but you have not followed simple rules for posting your own words and someone else's words and that is mind boggling. Everyone else does it this simple way, why not you?

edit: Answeringislam -->Another objective website where untruths are spread and gobbled up ... which by the way ......why not mention the website that's debunked it Lawman and let people decide which one is true?

For further objective reading on Islam, I highly recommend:
1 - www.DieMoslems.org
2 - www.Iwanttostopyoufromburninginhellsoconverttomyreligionyoufilthyarab.com
3 - www.islam-uslam-weallslam4islam.com
4 - www.convertingmuslims2christianityfordummies.org[/quote]

[i]Avoid the question and par the hole, information in the piece offered was aided by the assistance of a former muslim convert[/i].

[i]How can the Torah and the Bible be corrupted and the Quran is not, when all three were provided by Allah?[/i]

[quote]You know about 3.5% of what you are talking about. The other 96.5% of things you post are used out of context and historical significance and background reading is completely, utterly ignored..........why so Lawman?[/quote]

[i]Why the requirement for abrogation? Of course I know the answer and you know I do. Another attempt of "outwitting" on your part to avoid the direct question as posed.[/i]

[Lawman]

[quote]Also, referencing where you get the untruths from is a must when "internet debating". Why do you not do this? Why not put everything that is not your own words into quotes and everything else leave plain text? I mean, you go through the effort to italicize and make blue and yada yada yada but you have not followed simple rules for posting your own words and someone else's words and that is mind boggling. Everyone else does it this simple way, why not you?[/quote]

[img]http://vnuuk.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/red_herring.jpg[/img]

[quote]DISCLAIMER: I am not using my normal method of posting in this reply for the purpose of promoting comprehensive reading. Comprehensive reading, now that's a novel idea. The following is from AnsweringIslam.[/quote]

[Khatmandude]

OK, how about from this point forward you post like 99.9% of others do and use the quote function properly? You afraid people will catch on to your intelligence level?

[LoyalFanInGA v2.0]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='564651' date='Oct 7 2007, 01:22 PM']To address your most serious accusation, I am NOT a SEAL I do not lie about what I know or who I know... I don't need to.
My brother was in the Army Quartermaster Corps, MOS 92Y or G I believe, and went to Somalia to support Operation Restore Hope. He didn't make it to Mogadishu in 1993 because he broke his fucking back & neck in a nightime HALO in mid '93 when the pilot came in too fast & low.
In the course of his training, I visited him and met MANY of his fellow soldiers and broke bread with them in Ft Bragg. Got to meet a number of D-Boys who had worked with a couple of of my SEAL friends (MY FUCKING NEIGHBORS) who are stationed at Damneck, Va.
You know Damneck, Virginia... right? The headquarters of Seal Team Two? Also where I was stationed from 1989 to 1991, teaching the TOMAHAWK missile system. They also knew a couple of my friends in SDVT-2 out of Little Creek, Virginia... just down the road from me.

In 1993 my division and I were launching TOMAHAWKS at Iraq from the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf.... of course, this was done in between deck swabbing times. It was also done in between the 115 + hostile boardings of ships heading to/coming from the Iraqi area.

Actually had a couple of my brothers friends visit me and stay at my home in Virginia Beach on their way back from a road trip to Atlantic City. This is when I met Staff Sgt. Bill Cleveland. His stepmother lives in Portsmouth, VA. which is right next door to Virginia Beach. She worked at the Norfolk Naval Shipyard, which is where I first met her in the 80's... Get the connection? I was on a ship, which goes to shipyards, where she worked?

Now... I wasn't his best friend, nor was I an extremely close family friend... but when you have met a fellow serviceman AND a part of his family... and when you have broken bread with those people... it touches you deeply.

So there you go "physician assisstant", there is MY connection to the soldiers who were there AND to one of the soldiers who was drug through the streets... any other questions?

Attack someone else that you have a chance at getting at... you are barking up the wrong tree here.

In my experience, when you have to try to attack someones knowledge or experiences, it's because you're covering up for lies in your own.

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//39.gif[/img][/quote]
[i][b]Most[/b][/i] of that story is believable. Nice try. I give you an "A" for effort. You're final, counter-accusation is the cherry on top.

Remember your earlier lesson on prior enlisted officer's Shit Don't Stink Complex?

Now, I'm going to give everyone who hasn't been in the military a lesson on what we call, "Shit Talkers." A shit talker is someone who exaggerates or outright lies. Why? I don't know. You can spot a shit talker because their stories are statistically very, very unlikely and stretch the boundaries of probability. Their statements aren't logical or realistic. Their statements are inconsistent and change when questioned directly; very often numbers don't add up.

I stated I could understand you knowing one of those soldiers by chance, destiny, whatever. The odds of someone from the Navy (and not a SEAL) knowing "some of those soldiers" (i.e. more than one) from TF160 or Delta dragged through the streets of Mogadishu is so large that a conservative estimate would be 1 in the millions. You've given me an explanation to the randomness of chance that you knew "one of the soldiers." You still haven't given me an explanation of how you knew "some" of the soldiers dragged through the streets. Your statement is statistically unlikely, your numbers are inconsistent, and your story changed when directly questioned. That's how you got yourself into this mess.

Before I continue, lets get something straight. I'm analyzing [b]your statements[/b]. I'm not talking about your brother.

A 92Y is a supply clerk and a 92G is a cook. The odds of a cook going to Special Forces Military Free Fall School? The odds of a supply clerk being W8 qualified? Better, but still remote. I never met one, never heard of one; but I'll randomly quantify the odds as 1:1000 at best. The realism of a unit needing hot chow or Skillcraft pens covertly infiltrated by a high altitude, low opening infiltration method? Decide for yourself. It's possible, but unlikely and not very realistic. (Earlier, didn't you attempt to insult me by accusing me of being "Supply corp?" That would be the same as your brother? Are you high?)

The odds of sustaining a vertebral fracture from a HALO jump? About 1:20,000. A retrospective study published in Military Medicine, July 99, identified 10 vertebral fractures during a 56 month period at the Military Free Fall School. The researchers couldn't publish an exact rate of incidence because they didn't have an exact number of cumulative jumps conducted during the study period. MFF School estimates they conduct about 40,000 jumps per year. So 40,000 jumps/yr, 56 months, 10 spinal fractures...do the math. Again another statistically unlikely statement.

Let's examine sustaining vertebral fractures during a nighttime HALO because "the pilot came in too fast & low." If you had said "static line jump" or "jump," I wouldn't be suspicious. Drop altitude for HALO varies, but is usually above 10,000ft AGL. The jumpers deploy their chutes around 2500ft. So when the ramp drops and the pilot is too close to the ground for the chute to deploy in time for a safe landing...the Jumpmaster will see the 3rd planet from the Sun is noticeably closer than it should be. He might even check the altimeter on his wrist. If the Jumpmaster's altimeter confirms the pilot is too low, the jumpers won't exit the aircraft. He will tell the Loadmaster to tell the pilot to do a racetrack until they reach drop altitude. Drop altitude for static line jumps is 800ft AGL. Combat jumps are 500ft AGL and you don't even wear a reserve parachute. It would be difficult, but not impossible, for a Jumpmaster to gauge if a pilot was flying below 800ft (especially at night if the illumination from the moon or civilian structures was low), static line jumpers don't wear altimeters, and static line jumpers don't have automatic activation devices to deploy their reserve parachute in case they are incapacitated during their descent. Vertebral fractures are more common in static line jumpers vs. HALO jumpers. Also, I know lots of supply clerks and cooks who jump static lines. Your statement is illogical. It doesn't make any sense. It's not realistic.

I believe most of what you wrote is true. Hell, there is even a infintisimally small chance all of it is true. I don't believe you are the heinous liar I initially thought you were. I believe your brother was injured and I hope he is healthy, happy, and pain free. If you bullshit me about how dangerous it is to sit in a climate controlled room and push buttons at the enemy sitting over 2000 klicks away; I probably wouldn't be able to spot it...so damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. If you try to exaggerate or bullshit me about the Army you're like the proverbial Squid out of water...spineless and without a leg to stand on.

I'll be back later to grace you with my God Complex when I have the time to address the real issue.

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='LoyalFanInGA v2.0' post='565826' date='Oct 9 2007, 12:53 PM'][i][b]Most[/b][/i] of that story is believable. Nice try. I give you an "A" for effort. You're final, counter-accusation is the cherry on top.

Remember your earlier lesson on prior enlisted officer's Shit Don't Stink Complex?

Now, I'm going to give everyone who hasn't been in the military a lesson on what we call, "Shit Talkers." A shit talker is someone who exaggerates or outright lies. Why? I don't know. You can spot a shit talker because their stories are statistically very, very unlikely and stretch the boundaries of probability. Their statements aren't logical or realistic. Their statements are inconsistent and change when questioned directly; very often numbers don't add up.

I stated I could understand you knowing one of those soldiers by chance, destiny, whatever. The odds of someone from the Navy (and not a SEAL) knowing "some of those soldiers" (i.e. more than one) from TF160 or Delta dragged through the streets of Mogadishu is so large that a conservative estimate would be 1 in the millions. You've given me an explanation to the randomness of chance that you knew "one of the soldiers." You still haven't given me an explanation of how you knew "some" of the soldiers dragged through the streets. Your statement is statistically unlikely, your numbers are inconsistent, and your story changed when directly questioned. That's how you got yourself into this mess.

Before I continue, lets get something straight. I'm analyzing [b]your statements[/b]. I'm not talking about your brother.

A 92Y is a supply clerk and a 92G is a cook. The odds of a cook going to Special Forces Military Free Fall School? The odds of a supply clerk being W8 qualified? Better, but still remote. I never met one, never heard of one; but I'll randomly quantify the odds as 1:1000 at best. The realism of a unit needing hot chow or Skillcraft pens covertly infiltrated by a high altitude, low opening infiltration method? Decide for yourself. It's possible, but unlikely and not very realistic. (Earlier, didn't you attempt to insult me by accusing me of being "Supply corp?" That would be the same as your brother? Are you high?)

The odds of sustaining a vertebral fracture from a HALO jump? About 1:20,000. A retrospective study published in Military Medicine, July 99, identified 10 vertebral fractures during a 56 month period at the Military Free Fall School. The researchers couldn't publish an exact rate of incidence because they didn't have an exact number of cumulative jumps conducted during the study period. MFF School estimates they conduct about 40,000 jumps per year. So 40,000 jumps/yr, 56 months, 10 spinal fractures...do the math. Again another statistically unlikely statement.

Let's examine sustaining vertebral fractures during a nighttime HALO because "the pilot came in too fast & low." If you had said "static line jump" or "jump," I wouldn't be suspicious. Drop altitude for HALO varies, but is usually above 10,000ft AGL. The jumpers deploy their chutes around 2500ft. So when the ramp drops and the pilot is too close to the ground for the chute to deploy in time for a safe landing...the Jumpmaster will see the 3rd planet from the Sun is noticeably closer than it should be. He might even check the altimeter on his wrist. If the Jumpmaster's altimeter confirms the pilot is too low, the jumpers won't exit the aircraft. He will tell the Loadmaster to tell the pilot to do a racetrack until they reach drop altitude. Drop altitude for static line jumps is 800ft AGL. Combat jumps are 500ft AGL and you don't even wear a reserve parachute. It would be difficult, but not impossible, for a Jumpmaster to gauge if a pilot was flying below 800ft (especially at night if the illumination from the moon or civilian structures was low), static line jumpers don't wear altimeters, and static line jumpers don't have automatic activation devices to deploy their reserve parachute in case they are incapacitated during their descent. Vertebral fractures are more common in static line jumpers vs. HALO jumpers. Also, I know lots of supply clerks and cooks who jump static lines. Your statement is illogical. It doesn't make any sense. It's not realistic.

I believe most of what you wrote is true. Hell, there is even a infintisimally small chance all of it is true. I don't believe you are the heinous liar I initially thought you were. I believer your brother was injured and I hope he is healthy, happy, and pain free. If you bullshit me about how dangerous it is to sit in a climate controlled room and push buttons at the enemy sitting over 2000 klicks away; I probably wouldn't be able to spot it...so damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. If you try to exaggerate or bullshit me about the Army you're like the proverbial Squid out of water...spineless and without a leg to stand on.

I'll be back later to grace you with my God Complex when I have the time to address the real issue.[/quote]

Nice try yourself... I give you an A for asshole, because when the truth is presented you don't want to know it!

Let me try to educate the non-military to what we call... Face Savers. They hate it when their bluff is called and they look like shit. They then make themselves look like an even bigger shit sack when they want to keep something going that they've been proven wrong about.

I suggest you do a little bit more research on what you claim to be an expert on. "What are the odds"... where do YOU get your odds? Vegas would love you as a bookie.

I realize that the reason you went into the Army is that;

1) You were/are not smart enough for the Air Force
2) You were/are not smart enough for the Navy
3) You were/are not tough enough for the Marines

and then you became a "Penis Machinist/Pecker Checker" to go officer in the Army for "more pay"... but enough of the niceties.


Surely all of your self-declared intelligence should be able to tell you the following;

One of the quickest ways for Army types to get into the Rangers is through the quartermaster corp... in particular the 92 G MOS... would you like a source?

No problem... it's easy enough to find... Google like I did it dumbass.

I put in "92G MOS and Ranger" and here is the TOP links;

[url="http://www.quartermaster.army.mil/OQMG/Professional_Bulletin/2002/Summer02/Through_the_Eyes_of_a_Quartermaster_Ranger_Cooks_Dedication_to_Duty.htm"]http://www.quartermaster.army.mil/OQMG/Pro...ion_to_Duty.htm[/url]

[url="https://forums.goarmy.com/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=43239"]https://forums.goarmy.com/forums/thread.jspa?messageID=43239[/url]

Now that wasn't so hard to do was it? Notice how the link in the first one is taken from the www.quartermaster.army.mil website?

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//39.gif[/img]

As a matter of fact, my nephew Joshua Noble, is in the Army Reserves. He spent last summer at Ft. Lee in Petersburg, VA going through quartermaster school. He has the 92G MOS... IN HONOR OF MY BROTHER!!! He wants to go Ranger.
He deploys to Iraq again in the next two months (if not sooner due to his unit being placed on high alert)

Wow... in order to save face, you're going to attempt to call me a liar because I said I "knew SOME of the soldiers dragged through the streets"...

I'm so sorry Mr. God Complex, I meant that I knew/had met ONE of the TWO soldiers that had been dragged through the streets in Mogadishu, and that I also had met his step mother because of where she worked in Hampton Roads... and that I had met others who were there when I went to visit my brother at Ft. Bragg. or they stopped by my house with my brother on their way back to Ft. Bragg. Wow... what are the odds of meeting someone from different forces when you live in the area that has the HIGHEST CONCENTRATION OF MILITARY IN THE WORLD!

The odds are pretty small dumbass.

As far as a HALO goes, I have had/will not have any fucking clue as to the how/why of a "static line jump" or "jump".
I'm am not/nor ever will be one of the two things that fall out of the sky... bird shit & dumbshits.
All I know is what I was told by my brothers First Sargent before the medevac left and the surgeons at Walter Reed, as they were preparing to do spinal fusion in two places. His whole fucking platoon was injured, with his injuries being the worst. The guys in his platoon told me that he was walking aroung and checking on them WITH HIS NECK ALL CROOKED AND HARDLY BREATHING... [u]because he was their platoon leader[/u]. They called him a hero, their word means a helluva lot more to me than yours does, because they LOOKED ME IN THE EYE WHEN THEY TOLD ME THESE THINGS.

He then went to Germany, after they gave him computer training, but then finally medically discharged him when he had continuing problems with fun stuff like ... INVOLUNTARY MUSCLES NOT WORKING (LUNGS/BLADDER) BECAUSE OF THE BREAKS.

It was statistically unlikey that that I meet someone on a message board who would think that they are God and pretend to know everything when they don't.

I did... you.

I do have a problem with people who can't admit that they were wrong... like you. You are obviously NOT an expert on the Army, and if you expect a "squid" to be an expert on jumping out of perfectly good planes, then you're an even bigger fucking idiot.
Also, if you think that all we did was "sit in a climate controlled room and push buttons at the enemy sitting over 2000 klicks away" then you are a disgrace to Army officers worldwide... as any self respecting Army officer I know (and that I CONTINUE to work with at JFCOM Suffolk, VA) knows what the Navy actually does... like all of our people who have been going "IA" to take the Army spots in Afghanistan & Iraq because the Army is spread WAY too thin and don't have the manpower to cover it.


Now I honestly don't have a problem with some of your questions, as anyone who would lie about knowing the heroes that have served our country (whatever service) is lower than the low. In that... and [b][u]for your service I thank & salute you[/u][/b]. I rag on the Army as the Army ragged on me... but as you know we need/respect each other out there.

[Homer_Rice]

Earlier, I wrote:
[quote]Basic issues I want to discuss:
<snip>
3) How some well-intended, but not well-informed, people are led astray by one characteristic of religious belief in general: the location of authority in supernatural beliefs. Doctrines premised on the supernatural might be correct, but they might not. And, as a result of the insistence of locating belief in the unprovable-by-definition, instead of the provable, a lot of tragic, and otherwise avoidable, conflict occurs.[/quote]

Sometimes it is difficult to get one's mind wrapped around the immensity of the physical universe. Jorn Barger posted a link the other day to the [url="http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/~ppzsjm/apm/apm.html"]APM Galaxy Survey[/url], which suggests the density of galaxies within the universe. It's only a partial visualization, but it helps people get an idea. I suggest following the link, reading the one page summary, and then clicking on the pic to enlarge it. Let your mind contemplate for a few moments.

[url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=how+many+galaxies&btnG=Google+Search"]Just how many galaxies are there, anyways?[/url]

Isn't God, God of the entire universe? (This presumes general agreement on a monistic cosmos, which is, in itself, a very interesting investigation, but I suspect there is general agreement on the basic notion.)

If so, then it's fair to ask: What are the rules by which God operates? Is it possible for humans to know at least some of these rules? And, if it is possible, then what is the nature of the relationship between individual humans, the cosmos, and God?

All this is prefatory and I hope it provides some food for thought.

The origin of this thread is an expression of what I would describe as an anti-ecumenical proscription. Forcing someone not in your group to wear an arm-band, for purposes of identification is inherently repulsive to just about everyone. (Although it wasn't considered so during the Middle Ages with its variety of sumptuary laws. Its worst expression came 70 years ago and who would want to express some kinship to that crowd?)

The subsequent discussion has been interesting and it begs an underlying question: What is the basis for true ecumenicism?

While Lawman explicitly rejects the idea of using arm-bands to identify "Others" he still moves from a "divisive" axiom, which suggests that "Either you are one of us, or you are not one of us." The convoluted scriptural dogma which he offers in support of his views is, I'm sure, well-intended on his part. Though his intent is honorable, and, he might argue, represents a valid approach to ecumenicism, it is, in fact, an ecumenicism of the master and the slave, in which relations are clearly defined and just as clearly unbalanced. To be an "Other" in his world is to be "lesser"--there's no getting around that fundamental conclusion.

It is misguided. In fact, it's simply wrong in many ways.

Take another look at the photo from the link. Surely, God has a lot of plates spinning. Surely, ongoing creation is a busy business. Surely, the rules by which such a cosmos is elaborated is complex. Yet, just as surely, it must be efficient.

Leibniz, in his Theodicy, said that "This is the best of all possible worlds." Was he wrong? Perhaps to those with small minds, like Voltaire, he was. But I'd argue that Voltaire, and those who share similar ideas on this matter, are making the same fundamental mistake that Lawman is making.

He isn't taking into consideration all of Creation.

(More later, when I have time to compose. Next up: What is the basis for an ecumenicism which takes into account a better apprehension of Creation?)

[Lawman]

[quote name='IKOTA' post='565469' date='Oct 8 2007, 09:14 PM']OK, how about from this point forward you post like 99.9% of others do and use the quote function properly? You afraid people will catch on to your intelligence level?[/quote]

[i]So now your using my computer skills or (self-admittingly) lack there of avoid the question.................[/i]


[i]IKOTA, I'm done with you and only ask that you read INTO your Quran and the Hadiths (crazy things going on in there),[/i]