Taylor Mays is coming to Cincy for a visit

[Jason]

[quote name='scharm' date='05 April 2010 - 09:08 AM' timestamp='1270476495' post='875326']
Do you honestly think Zimmer and Lewis don't have feel for what this division does? They purposely went away from less physical Safeties (KK, Madieu) for a reason. They added more physical safeties in White, Ndukwe, Crocker, and Williams that have not proven to be as great of ball hawks but are much more effective in running game and against the type of passing games they face.

The proof is right there. Heck even Mike Doss got a couple chances with this team. Look at the safeties they have brought in and look at the improvement in the defense.

Crocker is the best pass defender, but I wouldn't say great vs. Madieu and KK that could play CB alot better and grab more Ints.

Ndukwe and Williams are labeled as classic run defending safeties.

Marvin White was big hitter and not much coverage.


I don't see a Colts, Saints, Chargers, Cardinals, Packers offense in this division. Baltimore throws alot to backs. Pittsburgh excels at timing slants and then of course Ben's out of the pocket stuff.
[/quote]

I have no doubt that Zimmer Marvin know what this division does.

I question if some of the posters on this board do. I think a few of them still think this is a power running division, which is not predominantly the case anymore.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Jason' date='05 April 2010 - 10:29 AM' timestamp='1270477787' post='875329']
I have no doubt that Zimmer Marvin know what this division does.

[b]I question if some of the posters on this board do. I think a few of them still think this is a power running division, which is not predominantly the case anymore.[/b]
[/quote]



I'm sorry, but how again are you more of an expert than the rest of the board? I don't remember seeing that memo.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jason' date='05 April 2010 - 09:29 AM' timestamp='1270477787' post='875329']
I question if some of the posters on this board do. I think a few of them still think this is a power running division, which is not predominantly the case anymore.
[/quote]



It sure as hell isn't a passing division.

The Stealer lost leads and threw because they couldn't run.

We had 2 teams in our division, 3 if you count our team, that
were ranked in the top 10 in rushing Offense last season.
Believe it or not, the Browns averaged more rushing yards per
game, (#8) than the Bengals (#9) did.

I hear a lot about the passing Offenses will will face next season.
But the Bengals will play 8 games against teams that ranked in the
top 10 in rushing Offense last year.

The Jets (#1), Panthers (#3), Dolphins (#4), 2 games against the Ravens (#5),
Saints (#6), 2 games against the Browns (#8).

As a comparison, the Bengals will only play 5 games against Offenses that
ranked in the top 10 in passing Offense last season.

Colts (#2), Patriots (#3), Saints (#4) and 2 games against the Stealers (#9).

Also, the Bengals will play 9 games against Offense that were ranked 18th or lower
in passing Offense last year. And 5 of those 9 games will be against teams that ranked
27th or lower.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='05 April 2010 - 10:49 AM' timestamp='1270478975' post='875332']
It sure as hell isn't a passing division.

The Stealer lost leads and threw because they couldn't run.

We had 2 teams in our division, 3 if you count our team, that
were ranked in the top 10 in rushing Offense last season.
Believe it or not, the Browns averaged more rushing yards per
game, (#8) than the Bengals (#9) did.

I hear a lot about the passing Offenses will will face next season.
But the Bengals will play 8 games against teams that ranked in the
top 10 in rushing Offense last year.

The Jets (#1), Panthers (#3), Dolphins (#4), 2 games against the Ravens (#5),
Saints (#6), 2 games against the Browns (#8).

As a comparison, the Bengals will only play 5 games against Offenses that
ranked in the top 10 in passing Offense last season.

Colts (#2), Patriots (#3), Saints (#4) and 2 games against the Stealers (#9).

Also, the Bengals will play 9 games against Offense that were ranked 18th or lower
in passing Offense last year. And 5 of those 9 games will be against teams that ranked
27th or lower.
[/quote]
Go clean your garage

[oldschooler]

[quote name='akiliMVP' date='05 April 2010 - 10:01 AM' timestamp='1270479661' post='875334']
Go clean your garage

[img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sport27.gif[/img]
[/quote]


I think you have mistaken me for someone else.

And my garage is clean. Somewhat.

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='akiliMVP' date='05 April 2010 - 09:23 AM' timestamp='1270473837' post='875319']
That's what everyone tries to use as a knock against Thomas for not being an AFCN safety. Even though he's extremely physical and a good tackler.

Doesn't matter anyways I don't think they will go after a safety who is weak in coverage, no matter how good they are against the run. And FWIW I don't think Mays is that great against the run. 1.5 career tackles for loss? Really? Yeah he knocks the shit out of people 15 yards downfield but he arm tackles too much. That shit won't fly against Ray Rice. I know blah blah he played 30 yards off the line of scrimmage. I'd think they brought him forward a time or two a game in obvious running downs.

My guess is they won't take Mays at 21, Thomas will be gone, they go with Brandon Graham or Mike Iupati. Morgan Burnett or Reshad Jones in round 2. Both can hit and cover.
[/quote]

Akili, I generally accept the fact that you follow the draft process more than I do, but at this point, I think since you don't like Mays, you are just feeding the negative hype. People on this board have tried to use reasoning and facts to show that at 21, he is no more apt to be a bust than anyone else we pick there, but you act like you know more than anyone else. What I do know is that this kid was a FOUR year starter at USC, arguably the best program in the country over the last 7-8 years, and arguably the best recruiting school over the same period, so if he was a huge liability, you would imagine that he would have been replaced by somebody else. He wasn't, and in fact was a three time 1st team all american. If Zimmer decides he's the guy, than he is.

I guess we'll see if you are the great draft guru you think you are, if Mays is available at 21.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='kennethmw' date='05 April 2010 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1270482060' post='875341']
Akili, I generally accept the fact that you follow the draft process more than I do, [b]but at this point, I think since you don't like Mays, you are just feeding the negative hype. People on this board have tried to use reasoning and facts to show that at 21, he is no more apt to be a bust than anyone else we pick there, but you act like you know more than anyone else.[/b] What I do know is that this kid was a FOUR year starter at USC, arguably the best program in the country over the last 7-8 years, and arguably the best recruiting school over the same period, so if he was a huge liability, you would imagine that he would have been replaced by somebody else. He wasn't, and in fact was a three time 1st team all american. If Zimmer decides he's the guy, than he is.

I guess we'll see if you are the great draft guru you think you are, if Mays is available at 21.
[/quote]


pretty much. Both safeties can be good fits. Some just refuse to accept that.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='kennethmw' date='05 April 2010 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1270482060' post='875341']
Akili, I generally accept the fact that you follow the draft process more than I do, but at this point, I think since you don't like Mays, you are just feeding the negative hype. People on this board have tried to use reasoning and facts to show that at 21, he is no more apt to be a bust than anyone else we pick there, but you act like you know more than anyone else. What I do know is that this kid was a FOUR year starter at USC, arguably the best program in the country over the last 7-8 years, and arguably the best recruiting school over the same period, so if he was a huge liability, you would imagine that he would have been replaced by somebody else. He wasn't, and in fact was a three time 1st team all american. If Zimmer decides he's the guy, than he is.

I guess we'll see if you are the great draft guru you think you are, if Mays is available at 21.
[/quote]
All I'm doing is repeating what basically every scout and draft expert has said about him

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='Bengals1181' date='05 April 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1270482510' post='875342']
pretty much. Both safeties can be good fits. Some just refuse to accept that.
[/quote]
Some refuse to acknowledge the fact that Mays has struggled in coverage for 4 years at USC. Some also refuse to acknowledge that his skill set makes him a much better prospect at strong safety, which we are two deep at. Some refuse to acknowledge the dude has any weaknesses whatsoever.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='akiliMVP' date='05 April 2010 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1270485320' post='875347']


Some refuse to acknowledge Thomas has any weaknesses whatsoever.
[/quote]



you were saying?

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='akiliMVP' date='05 April 2010 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1270484074' post='875344']
All I'm doing is repeating what basically every scout and draft expert has said about him
[/quote]


[quote]Thomas is lean and not very tall and may not have the strength to make plays inside the box at the next level. Size will also limit effectiveness against larger inside receivers who can out muscle him for the ball.[/quote]

[quote]Does not have the ideal height that you'd prefer --- Body must mature and needs to get stronger --- Will often miss some tackles due to being outmatched physically --- Can be too aggressive at times --- Has some trouble getting off blocks --- A bit of a ' tweener --- Limited experience.[/quote]

[quote]
-Occasionally gets out of control; goes for big hit
-Smaller player - will his body hold up in pros?
-Late in run diagnosage
-Will have limitations in run support at next level [/quote]



All I'm doing is repeating what basically every scout and draft expert has said about him.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='Bengals1181' date='05 April 2010 - 12:43 PM' timestamp='1270485790' post='875349']
All I'm doing is repeating what basically every scout and draft expert has said about him.
[/quote]
That's fine. I'm not going to make a 7 paragraph post using bat shit crazy excuses to what the experts say.


Oh hell let me try it out:

Thomas wasn't taught how to defend the run or tackle at Texas
Thomas was used to cover, not defend the run
Those scouts are just trying to make Thomas fall to their team
Thomas will be coached by ZimmerZ who will transform him into a run stopping monster!1!!!

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='akiliMVP' date='05 April 2010 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1270486429' post='875350']
That's fine. I'm not going to make a 7 paragraph post using bat shit crazy excuses to what the experts say.


Oh hell let me try it out:

Thomas wasn't taught how to defend the run or tackle at Texas
Thomas was used to cover, not defend the run
Those scouts are just trying to make Thomas fall to their team
Thomas will be coached by ZimmerZ who will transform him into a run stopping monster!1!!!
[/quote]



none of which I've said. Take your beef up with him.



Both are solid players and both will be first round picks. Too bad you're expertness can't accept that.

[Jason]

[quote name='Bengals1181' date='05 April 2010 - 09:34 AM' timestamp='1270478091' post='875330']
I'm sorry, but how again are you more of an expert than the rest of the board? I don't remember seeing that memo.
[/quote]

I'm not claiming any expert status. But Jamaal Lewis and Jerome Bettis aren't in this division anymore, and there really aren't many backs like them who see the ball nearly as much as they did. The Browns are the only other team in the division who ran more than they threw, and that had as much to do with their QB play as it did anything else. Yes, the Ravens threw a lot to Ray Rice. But Ray Rice is not a Jamaal Lewis or Jerome Bettis. And with Miller, Holmes, Ward, and the return of Randle El, the stealers are gearing to throw the ball more, and the led the division in passing last season and were 9th in the NFL. How is this still a power running division?

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='akiliMVP' date='05 April 2010 - 12:35 PM' timestamp='1270485320' post='875347']
Some refuse to acknowledge the fact that Mays has struggled in coverage for 4 years at USC. Some also refuse to acknowledge that his skill set makes him a much better prospect at strong safety, which we are two deep at. Some refuse to acknowledge the dude has any weaknesses whatsoever.
[/quote]

First, I don't believe I've read a single post of support for Mays that said anything about him having no weaknesses. Everybody acknowledges he needs work in coverage and becoming a surer tackler. The supporters like 1181, old and myself, however, feel that the tremendous athleticism the kid has, plus the Coaching that he would receive with Zimmer and Co could, and I did say COULD, produce a dominant Safety that would be a fixture in our Dbackfield for the next 10 years.Secondly, We're not "two deep" at Strong, which I agree is his more likely position in the NFL. We have Duke, and a hopefully healthy Williams, but Roy is an unknown. 1181 disagrees with me here, but I feel we are a lot better at FS with Crocker, Nelson, Ratliff, Murray, and maybe even Trent. I personally think he could be our next Fulcher, a guy that makes you think about going across the middle.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='kennethmw' date='05 April 2010 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1270488734' post='875356']
First, I don't believe I've read a single post of support for Mays that said anything about him having no weaknesses. Everybody acknowledges he needs work in coverage and becoming a surer tackler. The supporters like 1181, old and myself, however, feel that the tremendous athleticism the kid has, plus the Coaching that he would receive with Zimmer and Co could, and I did say COULD, produce a dominant Safety that would be a fixture in our Dbackfield for the next 10 years.Secondly, We're not "two deep" at Strong, which I agree is his more likely position in the NFL. We have Duke, and a hopefully healthy Williams, but Roy is an unknown. [color="#FF0000"]1181 disagrees with me here, but I feel we are a lot better at FS with Crocker, Nelson, Ratliff, Murray, and maybe even Trent. I personally think he could be our next Fulcher, a guy that makes you think about going across the middle.[/color]
[/quote]




Yeah I disagree with that too. Nelson was a preseason wonder but sucked ass when he had to play against starters.

We need a FS much more than we need a SS.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='kennethmw' date='05 April 2010 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1270488734' post='875356']
First, I don't believe I've read a single post of support for Mays that said anything about him having no weaknesses. Everybody acknowledges he needs work in coverage and becoming a surer tackler. The supporters like 1181, old and myself, however, feel that the tremendous athleticism the kid has, plus the Coaching that he would receive with Zimmer and Co could, and I did say COULD, produce a dominant Safety that would be a fixture in our Dbackfield for the next 10 years.Secondly, We're not "two deep" at Strong, which I agree is his more likely position in the NFL. We have Duke, and a hopefully healthy Williams, but Roy is an unknown. [b]1181 disagrees with me here, but I feel we are a lot better at FS with Crocker, Nelson, Ratliff, Murray, and maybe even Trent. [/b] I personally think he could be our next Fulcher, a guy that makes you think about going across the middle.
[/quote]



Don't super disagree, just a lot of unknown. Ratliff doesn't have the size IMO, and I love the idea of moving Trent, but he's an unknown until you see it in action. Murray and Nelson are emergency options. I actually think Nelson could be a SS.



My big thing is that both Mays and Thomas would be good choices and I'd love it if we got either. Bashing for the sake of bashing is silly. Both are solid and both will be first round picks that could bring a lot to the bengals defense. Why bash a player who could help your team? Just because you like someone more? That's dumb.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='kennethmw' date='05 April 2010 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1270488734' post='875356']
First, I don't believe I've read a single post of support for Mays that said anything about him having no weaknesses. Everybody acknowledges he needs work in coverage and becoming a surer tackler. The supporters like 1181, old and myself, however, feel that the tremendous athleticism the kid has, plus the Coaching that he would receive with Zimmer and Co could, and I did say COULD, produce a dominant Safety that would be a fixture in our Dbackfield for the next 10 years.Secondly, We're not "two deep" at Strong, which I agree is his more likely position in the NFL. We have Duke, and a hopefully healthy Williams, but Roy is an unknown. 1181 disagrees with me here, but I feel we are a lot better at FS with Crocker, Nelson, Ratliff, Murray, and maybe even Trent. I personally think he could be our next Fulcher, a guy that makes you think about going across the middle.
[/quote]
Crocker is the only player listed there that has any business playing free safety in the NFL. Murray, Ratliff and Trent are all corners.

I don't think Mays will develop into a great overall safety because I don't think coaching is his issue.

[Jamie_B]

I think Mays is the last option guy, if all the others they have their eyes on are gone. I really dont expect us to take him.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='akiliMVP' date='05 April 2010 - 11:53 AM' timestamp='1270486429' post='875350']
That's fine. I'm not going to make a 7 paragraph post using bat shit crazy excuses to what the experts say.


Oh hell let me try it out:

Thomas wasn't taught how to defend the run or tackle at Texas
Thomas was used to cover, not defend the run
Those scouts are just trying to make Thomas fall to their team
Thomas will be coached by ZimmerZ who will transform him into a run stopping monster!1!!!
[/quote]


You failed miserably at the 7 paragraph post.
Pathetic effort.

And you call what I say excuses, and act like every scout/expert is saying what
you are saying. They're not. And they're not.


And none of what you posted was true.

Except [i]maybe[/i] ZimmerZ being able to turn him into a run stopping monster.

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='akiliMVP' date='05 April 2010 - 01:53 PM' timestamp='1270489981' post='875360']
Crocker is the only player listed there that has any business playing free safety in the NFL.[b] Murray, Ratliff and Trent are all corners.
[/b]
I don't think Mays will develop into a great overall safety because I don't think coaching is his issue.
[/quote]

Where do you think Free's come from? Almost every one was a corner that either doesn't have long speed, or makeup speed. All three of them fit the mold.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jason' date='05 April 2010 - 12:14 PM' timestamp='1270487642' post='875352']
I'm not claiming any expert status. But Jamaal Lewis and Jerome Bettis aren't in this division anymore, and there really aren't many backs like them who see the ball nearly as much as they did. The Browns are the only other team in the division who ran more than they threw, and that had as much to do with their QB play as it did anything else. Yes, the Ravens threw a lot to Ray Rice. But Ray Rice is not a Jamaal Lewis or Jerome Bettis. And with Miller, Holmes, Ward, and the return of Randle El, the stealers are gearing to throw the ball more, and the led the division in passing last season and were 9th in the NFL. How is this still a power running division?
[/quote]



Who said anything about it being a Power running division?

People are trying to say this is becoming a pass division.

One team finished in the top 10 in passing. The other 3 teams
were 18th, 26th and 32nd in passing.

It is a running division. 3 teams in the division were in
the top 10 in rushing yardage per game. The Stealers Franchise
was built on running the ball. And I would think it is safe to say
that after being a pass happy team and missing the playoffs,
they would like to be more balanced in 2010. Not more pass happy.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='05 April 2010 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1270494691' post='875375']
Who said anything about it being a Power running division?

People are trying to say this is becoming a pass division.

One team finished in the top 10 in passing. The other 3 teams
were 18th, 26th and 32nd in passing.

It is a running division. 3 teams in the division were in
the top 10 in rushing yardage per game. The Stealers Franchise
was built on running the ball. And I would think it is safe to say
that after being a pass happy team and missing the playoffs,
they would like to be more balanced in 2010. Not more pass happy.
[/quote]


They didnt miss the playoffs because of their O, their D was not as dominate as it used to be. I dont care what the stats say you could watch it and see that.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' date='05 April 2010 - 02:19 PM' timestamp='1270495148' post='875379']
They didnt miss the playoffs because of their O, their D was not as dominate as it used to be. I dont care what the stats say you could watch it and see that.
[/quote]


A top 5 Defense was the reason they missed the Playoffs?

If you would have said Special Teams, I would have a agreed a little.
So you must of not being watching too much. LOL (I did that just so I could feel young)

They couldn't hardly even convert 3rd and shorts last season.
They couldn't run the ball and finish games. They were 19th in rushing.

Even still, they passed almost 60% of the time.
They aren't going to become MORE pass happy.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='05 April 2010 - 03:28 PM' timestamp='1270495680' post='875383']
A top 5 Defense was the reason they missed the Playoffs?

If you would have said Special Teams, I would have a agreed a little.
So you must of not being watching too much. LOL (I did that just so I could feel young)

They couldn't hardly even convert 3rd and shorts last season.
They couldn't run the ball and finish games. They were 19th in rushing.

Even still, they passed almost 60% of the time.
They aren't going to become MORE pass happy.
[/quote]


Tell me what the stats were with and without Troy in there? (Can you count on him playing 16 games anymore? When was the last time he did?)


Once Mendenhall started getting going he had a 4.6 YPC. He isnt Bettis, but he is better than Parker imo.

But that's neither here nor there, I wasnt talking about them becoming more pass happy or more run happy, im just saying that without Troy their D just isnt as good, and they lost more games because of a Troyless Defense than they did because of their O.