Taylor Mays is coming to Cincy for a visit

[bengaled]

[quote name='kennethmw' date='03 April 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1270315268' post='874971']
Wow. I can't believe that we are debating whether or not Mays is worthy of the 21st pick in the draft.
Now if we were picking in the top ten, I would probably look at a few other players, but at 21, Mays would not be a bad addition. If the Bengals and coach Zimmer think he's the best player available at 21, then I'm on board. But I can't believe that some of you act like it would be utterly stupid to pick this kid at 21. That to me is utterly stupid.
[/quote]


you can't group everyone's position into one group mindset. just as even if i was for selecting him, i wouldn't want to be grouped in with others that would make that decision off of reasons like...

"This kid was a four year starter at one of the best football programs in the country, and a three time all-american."

that comes off as pretty stupid to me....utterly so.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='bengaled' date='04 April 2010 - 09:04 AM' timestamp='1270389874' post='875149']
you can't group everyone's position into one group mindset. just as even if i was for selecting him, i wouldn't want to be grouped in with others that would make that decision off of reasons like...

"This kid was a four year starter at one of the best football programs in the country, and a three time all-american."

that comes off as pretty stupid to me....utterly so.
[/quote]




No one is saying he should be picked for that reason.

LO.... wait. Nevermind.

[bengaled]

[quote name='Jason' date='03 April 2010 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1270344159' post='875091']
So because someone disagrees with you on a prospect you feel the need to call him names? Why is this so personal for you?
[/quote]

at least the 2nd time he's done that in this thread. surely you've noticed that pattern before this instance, right?

[Tigris]

[quote name='akiliMVP' date='04 April 2010 - 08:45 AM' timestamp='1270385145' post='875131']
The discussion was about productivity. Productivity = stats. Not hard to understand.
[/quote]

Well, not always. I know this is being picky, but the nose tackle... never really has many stats at all. Not even many tackles.

[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 April 2010 - 09:00 AM' timestamp='1270386048' post='875136']
Excuses?

No excuse in stating a fact.

They had a new D-coach and a bunch of new starters. Those are facts.

Why in the fuck is Mays a 1st round prospect, and is being brought in for a visit
by the Bengals, if he is so horrible? Answer me that. Most of the same scouts
that are bashing him have a 1st round grade on him.


I didn't make an excuse that he was a UCLA fan. I told him to admit it.
There was no reply.

If tackles are the worst stat, then why did you list them first? Or list them at all?
And how come you ignore Mays had 96, and say he is a bad tackler?
[/quote]
If I werea coach and I had 30 interviews, I would use a few of them as smoke screens... bring in the guy who I'm not a fan of... throw these other coaches off.

[quote name='bengaled' date='04 April 2010 - 09:44 AM' timestamp='1270388670' post='875145']
why would you ask that? no one has stated he's incapable of big plays. considering the nature of these discussions, i do find it interesting you'd choose a running play to make your case for him.
[/quote]

Was that the play where he ran down Pryor? I'll have to watch it again but if it is, is that where he arm tackled the guy? He seems to just shove/push/grab a lot of guys down. You don't see many body up tackling... body up hits, yes, but tackling (wrap and drive), not many. At 2:22 was the best I've seen so far after rewatching and the ball carrier was already out of bounds. 5:53 was a wrap and drag. @ 6:40, watch how slow he is to move laterally and adjust to at least try to make a play... he doesn't have a chance. This is going to hapen all day in the NFL. Lots and lots of arm tackling. You can do that when you're the strongest/fastest guy out there.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='bengaled' date='04 April 2010 - 09:11 AM' timestamp='1270390295' post='875151']
at least the 2nd time he's done that in this thread. surely you've noticed that pattern before this instance, right?
[/quote]


Second time I done it in this thread? Pattern? WTF are you talking about?



[quote name='Tigris' date='04 April 2010 - 09:14 AM' timestamp='1270390448' post='875152']
If I werea coach and I had 30 interviews, I would use a few of them as smoke screens... bring in the guy who I'm not a fan of... throw these other coaches off.
[/quote]


But if it is a player that is shitty and scouts are bashing, then you're not throwing anyone off.

[Tigris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ze_jaJlXQ&feature=related

Good video of Mays... lots of arm tackling for a guy who knows how to bring someone down. Tons of big hits, though... fun to watch.

and for the sake of awesome plays, the very last play in the video... I have no idea how that dude held onto the ball after getting whacked like that.sWEET CATCH.

[bengaled]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 April 2010 - 07:21 AM' timestamp='1270380114' post='875117']

Also the tackles for loss is very skewed when you take into account he was a centerfielder for his team.

Taylor Mays had no Seniors in the front 7 this past season. And he led his team with 96 tackles.
In 2008, Mays finished with 53[b] [/b] tackles and team-high 9 deflections.



[/quote]

i don't know about everyone else, but something "smells rotten in denmark" to me.

if a guy is supposedly only ASSIGNED to "stay back in deep centerfield", where his responsibilities are designed to only make the tackle AFTER all these short passes and running gains are made, i don't see how he's going to be the team leader in tackles with 96 of them. think about it. we're being led to believe that the majority of tackles in their system are being made by a guy in deep centerfield after the ball carrier (or WR) has made his way thru the entire USC defense... this on an average play from scrimmage.

[Tigris]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 April 2010 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1270390798' post='875153']
Second time I done it in this thread? Pattern? WTF are you talking about?



















But if it is a player that is shitty and scouts are bashing, then you're not throwing anyone off.
[/quote]
I would want every coach to think I could draft anyone at any given time and that I think EVERY prospect is Godly. It'll give you an edge in negotiations for trades. "Uh, yeah, nice deal but we have Mays rated pretty high on our board and there's no guarantee he'll be there if we move back five spots. I'll need what you're offering plus those two 5ths you have later in the draft." You know every team has a list of who others have brought in, who they interviewed, who went to their pro days, etc.

It gets used every year... teams jump in front of teams that heavily scout a guy and take him before they do. If I didn't want Mays, I would want everyone to think I did want him. It would help me in bargaining if indeed a trade should surface and I feel that would be the best way to better my team through the draft.

Regardless of who we draft, I don't think we're going to have a chance to get Thomas at #21. Mays may be there, but I would rather have Weatherspoon instead... I actually don't even see him there either. The only place I would draft Mays is if we traded up into the top of the second/late late first and grabbed him. He may go #10 and I sound like a fool for thinking he could last till the second, but I have serious doubts about the man. I could see him pulling a Rey this year and sliding way down the ranks.

[Tigris]

[quote name='bengaled' date='04 April 2010 - 10:42 AM' timestamp='1270392132' post='875155']
i don't know about everyone else, but something "smells rotten in denmark" to me.

if a guy is supposedly only ASSIGNED to "stay back in deep centerfield", where his responsibilities are designed to only make the tackle AFTER all these short passes and running gains are made, i don't see how he's going to be the team leader in tackles with 96 of them. think about it. we're being led to believe that the majority of tackles in their system are being made by a guy in deep centerfield after the ball carrier (or WR) has made his way thru the entire USC defense... this on an average play from scrimmage.
[/quote]




Nice observation.

[Tigris]

Addendum to a couple posts ago:

I wouldn't die if we took Mays, but I wouldn't be overly joyed either. I just don't want our first pick in this draft, an eventual starter and playmaker for this team, to be Taylor Mays. I want someone who is more of a likely bet, not someone who looks good in football pads and can throw his body into people.








Last year our draft was so strong that we can afford to take a couple gambles this year and/or trade up and grab two top talents much like the Jets did a few years ago with Revis and Harris. If Mays is our Harris, so be it... but our Revis better be a guy who is going to excel at the next level and not someone you hope is going to excel at the next level.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='bengaled' date='04 April 2010 - 09:42 AM' timestamp='1270392132' post='875155']
i don't know about everyone else, but something "smells rotten in denmark" to me.

if a guy is supposedly only ASSIGNED to "stay back in deep centerfield", where his responsibilities are designed to only make the tackle AFTER all these short passes and running gains are made, i don't see how he's going to be the team leader in tackles with 96 of them. think about it. we're being led to believe that the majority of tackles in their system are being made by a guy in deep centerfield after the ball carrier (or WR) has made his way thru the entire USC defense... this on an average play from scrimmage.
[/quote]

I don't think he was playing the pass on every down, do you?

[bengaled]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='04 April 2010 - 10:59 AM' timestamp='1270393161' post='875161']
I don't think he was playing the pass on every down, do you?
[/quote]


no, i don't, but by the same token i surely don't think usc (both the coaches and defense) had any fucking idea what the next called play would be, either...do you? sometimes, the next play call is obvious. USUALLY tho, it's not.

keep in mind, we're talking about pre-snap alignment and assignments.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengaled' date='04 April 2010 - 09:44 AM' timestamp='1270388670' post='875145']
why would you ask that? no one has stated he's incapable of big plays. considering the nature of these discussions, [b]i do find it interesting you'd choose a running play to make your case for him.[/b]
[/quote]


why? I've never said Mays is a pass defensing stud. He's strong against the run though, and IMO a protypical AFC north safety.

I chose the play because he basically threw someone the size of an NFL running back, or better yet the size of Big Ben, to the ground at will. We won both pissburgh games this year because we didn't let Ben break tackles.

[bengaled]

[quote name='Bengals1181' date='04 April 2010 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1270418156' post='875202']
why? I've never said Mays is a pass defensing stud. He's strong against the run though, and IMO a protypical AFC north safety.

I chose the play because he basically threw someone the size of an NFL running back, or better yet the size of Big Ben, to the ground at will. We won both pissburgh games this year because we didn't let Ben break tackles.
[/quote]

previous prototypes for the afc north have changed, IMO. the ravens will be more pass oriented after the host of WRs they picked this offseason. the steelers have already changed from a run first team to a pass first one and probably throw for twice as many yards as they run for on average. maybe you can say the browns are more of a run first team, but they haven't been at the top of our concerns for quite some time. the rest of the league is following the same pattern, especially among the most successful of teams. i'd rather have more versatile cb type safeties than LB types of yesteryear. the worm has turned. we kicked big ben's ass twice because we played better pass defense, allowing our line time to get to get to him. ben's scrambling and pissburg's running game weren't the game changing factors.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengaled' date='04 April 2010 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1270434897' post='875257']
previous prototypes for the afc north have changed, IMO. the ravens will be more pass oriented after the host of WRs they picked this offseason. the steelers have already changed from a run first team to a pass first one and probably throw for twice as many yards as they run for on average. maybe you can say the browns are more of a run first team, but they haven't been at the top of our concerns for quite some time. the rest of the league is following the same pattern, especially among the most successful of teams. i'd rather have more versatile cb type safeties than LB types of yesteryear. the worm has turned.
[/quote]


matter of an opinion I guess. Browns are a running team, Ray Rice is still the Baltimore offense until proven otherwise, and if Ben gets nailed the stealers are going to be a heavy running team again.


No way does this become an air-it-out division anytime soon.

[bengaled]

[quote name='Bengals1181' date='04 April 2010 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1270435129' post='875258']
matter of an opinion I guess. Browns are a running team, Ray Rice is still the Baltimore offense until proven otherwise, and if Ben gets nailed the stealers are going to be a heavy running team again.


No way does this become an air-it-out division anytime soon.
[/quote]

anytime soon? it already is.

[Oldcat]

[quote name='Bengals1181' date='04 April 2010 - 07:38 PM' timestamp='1270435129' post='875258']
matter of an opinion I guess. Browns are a running team, Ray Rice is still the Baltimore offense until proven otherwise, and if Ben gets nailed the stealers are going to be a heavy running team again.


No way does this become an air-it-out division anytime soon.
[/quote]

The Browns can't run or pass.
The Steelers *should* be more of a running team - I don't think its a coincidence that
their pass first offence comes in a year where they blow leads in the 4th quarter in nearly every game.

[scharm]

[quote name='bengaled' date='04 April 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1270435363' post='875259']
anytime soon? it already is.
[/quote]


I think that is inaccurate. Pitt currently carries the flag for offensive production in the North going off of last year, but it also happens to be a non playoff year for them. Baltimore hasn't been a wide open offense, alot of dumps to Ray Rice. Cincinnati we all know the transformation.

The common theme for the AFC North Champs is defense and the only team to break that trend was the 2005 Bengals, however that defense did produce 44 TOs to do it that year.

Right now I don't think there is a whole lot of evidence that the AFC North will resemble the AFC South anytime soon. Heck, Pittsburgh still relies heavily on yac and the timing slants they run, then the other major key is letting Ben get outside the pocket.


The whole arguement is silly, IMO. The anti-Mays crowd is trying to peg him as a one trick pony in run defense, dumb. He wouldn't be rated that high if he was just one thing. You just saw a coaching staff stick up for Roy Williams and his supposed limitations in the passing game. You also hear Marvin talk about attacking downfield on offense. Physical is really what the AFC North as been about.

Bengals won't take a safety that high to just do one thing so I'm not sure what a prototypical AFC North safety is, but I do know the AFC North isn't wide open as declared.

[akiliMVP]

So is the prototype AFCN safety Ed Reed (200 pounds) or Troy Polamalu (207 pounds)?

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='akiliMVP' date='05 April 2010 - 09:10 AM' timestamp='1270473043' post='875317']
So is the prototype AFCN safety Ed Reed (200 pounds) or Troy Polamalu (207 pounds)?
[/quote]


what's weight got to do with it, other than some silly argument 2 pages ago you can't let go of?



IMO an AFCN safety is tough, physical, smashmouth and strong against the run. An enforcer. Both the guys you mentioned would fit that bill.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='Bengals1181' date='05 April 2010 - 09:13 AM' timestamp='1270473206' post='875318']
what's weight got to do with it, other than some silly argument 2 pages ago you can't let go of?



IMO an AFCN safety is tough, physical, smashmouth and strong against the run. An enforcer. Both the guys you mentioned would fit that bill.
[/quote]
That's what everyone tries to use as a knock against Thomas for not being an AFCN safety. Even though he's extremely physical and a good tackler.

Doesn't matter anyways I don't think they will go after a safety who is weak in coverage, no matter how good they are against the run. And FWIW I don't think Mays is that great against the run. 1.5 career tackles for loss? Really? Yeah he knocks the shit out of people 15 yards downfield but he arm tackles too much. That shit won't fly against Ray Rice. I know blah blah he played 30 yards off the line of scrimmage. I'd think they brought him forward a time or two a game in obvious running downs.

My guess is they won't take Mays at 21, Thomas will be gone, they go with Brandon Graham or Mike Iupati. Morgan Burnett or Reshad Jones in round 2. Both can hit and cover.

[Jason]

Last year the Ravens threw the ball almost 54% of the time, the stealers nearly 58% (those numbers are counting sacks as pass plays).

And there aren't that many big backs in the division as bell cows anymore either. Only one back over 230 pounds had more than 100 carries in the AFCN last year.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Jason' date='05 April 2010 - 09:48 AM' timestamp='1270475299' post='875323']
[b]Last year the Ravens threw the ball almost 54% of the time[/b], the stealers nearly 58% (those numbers are counting sacks as pass plays).

And there aren't that many big backs in the division as bell cows anymore either. Only one back over 230 pounds had more than 100 carries in the AFCN last year.
[/quote]


RB's had 1/3 of Flacco's receptions last year. It's not like they're the colts.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jason' date='05 April 2010 - 08:48 AM' timestamp='1270475299' post='875323']
Last year the Ravens threw the ball almost 54% of the time, the stealers nearly 58% (those numbers are counting sacks as pass plays).

And there aren't that many big backs in the division as bell cows anymore either. Only one back over 230 pounds had more than 100 carries in the AFCN last year.
[/quote]



The Ravens basically used the pass as a long hand off to Rice though.
He was their leading reciever with 78 catches. Add that to the 21 catches
they threw to McClain and the 15 they threw to McGahee.

That is 114 cacthes by their RBs. Over a third of Flacco's completions. (315)

And the Ravens ran the ball 433 times. And were 5th in rushing yards per game.
But they were 18th in passing yards per game.

And as it has already been noted. The Stealers threw because they couldn't run.
They were 19th in rushing yards per game.

[scharm]

[quote name='Jason' date='05 April 2010 - 09:48 AM' timestamp='1270475299' post='875323']
Last year the Ravens threw the ball almost 54% of the time, the stealers nearly 58% (those numbers are counting sacks as pass plays).

And there aren't that many big backs in the division as bell cows anymore either. Only one back over 230 pounds had more than 100 carries in the AFCN last year.
[/quote]


Do you honestly think Zimmer and Lewis don't have feel for what this division does? They purposely went away from less physical Safeties (KK, Madieu) for a reason. They added more physical safeties in White, Ndukwe, Crocker, and Williams that have not proven to be as great of ball hawks but are much more effective in running game and against the type of passing games they face.

The proof is right there. Heck even Mike Doss got a couple chances with this team. Look at the safeties they have brought in and look at the improvement in the defense.

Crocker is the best pass defender, but I wouldn't say great vs. Madieu and KK that could play CB alot better and grab more Ints.

Ndukwe and Williams are labeled as classic run defending safeties.

Marvin White was big hitter and not much coverage.


I don't see a Colts, Saints, Chargers, Cardinals, Packers offense in this division. Baltimore throws alot to backs. Pittsburgh excels at timing slants and then of course Ben's out of the pocket stuff.