Titties (Andre Smith)

[Le Tigre]

[quote name='membengal' timestamp='1282528500' post='909220']
Some sort of foot injury to Collins. Not many details, as usual, from Marvin. Supposedly Collins will be available for the opener.
[/quote]

In ML-speak..that ranges between "maybe" and "out for the year".

[claptonrocks]

[quote name='Draftman' timestamp='1282578861' post='909333']
Everyone is so quick to blast Andre because of his hold out, injury, weight and passion and I will be the first to say I preferred Oher and Monroe with less baggage at #6 but he has made it to the field and that was the first hurdle. If Andre would have stayed at the combine and simply not worked out and would have kept his shirt on at his pro day, he would have went #2 to the Rams. ALL first year Offensive Tackle prospects struggle in their first preseason, even the great ones and this is basically his first. We need to be excited that we essentially got 2 first round draft picks this year. Andre is behind and needs to get into "his" FOOTBALL SHAPE, which while he was at Alabama was probably 330-340 and no one can say he wasn't the most dominant tackle in college his last two years. If Andre was only dominant on 20% of the plays this week, lets look for 40% in the next game and 60% in the last and by Week 2 or 3 of the regular season he will be firmly planted in as the starting right tackle. This team will be better with a healthy Andre Smith and there is no doubt about that, Roland is a backup RT on almost all if not every team in the NFL. We loved Big Willie in his prime and you are looking at his twin, cut from the same mold. The first game that Andre pancakes a DE or LB going to the next level 3-4 times in a game everyone will sing his praises and anoint him a Pro Bowl RT, and yes he will still get beat on a few plays just like every other RT in the league! We will get past "Titties" and move on to this...........
[img]http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/2009/draft/players/images/andre-smith.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Yep.......and looking at the pic of flabby tits and abundance of flab in the stomach area when he was running his 40, its easy to see why fans would
say he's a fat ass out of shape..

Tits have no strength bearing in them and the flab over has abs may hide some muscle that isnt showing ..
His traps look defined...his arms and obliques arent flabby and his legs look big and powerful.....
right now he needs snaps to build up stamina and overall technique of balance and the speed of NFL rushers.

He'll be fine..........very fine indeed.

[bengaled]

do any of you ever wonder what might have transpired if mike hadn't tried to blow up the slotting system last year and just signed andre in a timely fashion? now i know you can't go back and change the past, but i think about that all the time. i wonder if a more in shape andre breaks his foot last year. i wonder if he has a more successful rookie season possibly starting 16 games. i wonder if without the broken foot, he's able to train better this off season go to all the OTAs, and after that where he'd be in his development now as his 2nd season approaches.

in other words, i'm not as critical of andre's circumstance as many are, and instead wonder what could have been. i STILL feel he was a better option than michael oher was. oher's pro experience has been much different from andre's.

[|SF2|]

Fact is he was the number 6 last year and was expected to be a big contributor immediately. We are going on year 2 and he has not been on the field nearly enough and has had all kinds of issues. Does the guy look even close to a 2nd year Willie Anderson, Anthony Munoz, Orlando Pace, Joe Thomas. Nope.

Considering how many feel about Big Daddy, a guy who played almost every game while here, it should not be a surprise how some feel about Smith. I am still hopeing he comes around and plays up to the worthiness of a #6 pick but I certainly have my doubts.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1282588853' post='909373']
do any of you ever wonder what might have transpired if mike hadn't tried to blow up the slotting system last year and just signed andre in a timely fashion? now i know you can't go back and change the past, but i think about that all the time. i wonder if a more in shape andre breaks his foot last year. i wonder if he has a more successful rookie season possibly starting 16 games. i wonder if without the broken foot, he's able to train better this off season go to all the OTAs, and after that where he'd be in his development now as his 2nd season approaches.

in other words, i'm not as critical of andre's circumstance as many are, and instead wonder what could have been. i STILL feel he was a better option than michael oher was. oher's pro experience has been much different from andre's.
[/quote]


from what you saw and heard on hard knocks, he still trained throughout his holdout.


His foot thing was a fluke. Without it he's still the opening day starter last year, regardless of the holdout.


Contrary to your opinion, not everything is Mike's fault.

[bengaled]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1282590016' post='909387']
from what you saw and heard on hard knocks, he still trained throughout his holdout.


His foot thing was a fluke. Without it he's still the opening day starter last year, regardless of the holdout.


Contrary to your opinion, not everything is Mike's fault.
[/quote]



yeah, he trained on "his schedule", right? so much for that. andre needs consistent help in that area, team help, and likely always will.

concerning mike...didn't say it was. mike just goes about the whole operation a bit differently than most teams do. accordingly, he's been forced to pay the price for doing so. neither you nor i can't change that. like they say...it is what it is. but that doesn't restrain me from wondering about the "what ifs". i was just wondering if anyone else wonders about those same "what ifs" vs. making stabs at mike (on this occasion). guess i could have been a bit clearer.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1282594858' post='909415']
yeah, he trained on "his schedule", right? so much for that. andre needs consistent help in that area, team help, and likely always will.

concerning mike...didn't say it was. mike just goes about the whole operation a bit differently than most teams do. accordingly, he's been forced to pay the price for doing so. neither you nor i can't change that. like they say...it is what it is. but that doesn't restrain me from wondering about the "what ifs". i was just wondering if anyone else wonders about those same "what ifs" vs. making stabs at mike (on this occasion). [b]guess i could have been a bit clearer.[/b]
[/quote]


k, cuz it certainly came off as a "If Mike had gotten him in camp sooner would he have gotten hurt?" claim, which you have suggested in the past.

[T-Dub]

If Katie & Mike had caved what would've happened is he'd be getting paid however many millions guaranteed even if he's out of shape & playing like crap. Keels (sp?) got bent over with an incentive-based contract that protects the franchise pretty damn well for the #6 overall if he doesn't no-shit show up & play like one. That deal impressed the hell out of me, honestly. Quite a reach to say he doesn't break his foot if he signs a contract 2-3 weeks earlier.

[Enon Bengal]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1282588853' post='909373']
[b]do any of you ever wonder what might have transpired if mike hadn't tried to blow up the slotting system [/b]last year and just signed andre in a timely fashion? now i know you can't go back and change the past, but i think about that all the time. i wonder if a more in shape andre breaks his foot last year. i wonder if he has a more successful rookie season possibly starting 16 games. i wonder if without the broken foot, he's able to train better this off season go to all the OTAs, and after that where he'd be in his development now as his 2nd season approaches.

in other words, i'm not as critical of andre's circumstance as many are, and instead wonder what could have been. i STILL feel he was a better option than michael oher was. oher's pro experience has been much different from andre's.
[/quote]
Based on that comment, you've obviously never run a business...

[bengaled]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1282595812' post='909426']
k, cuz it certainly came off as a "If Mike had gotten him in camp sooner would he have gotten hurt?" claim, which you have suggested in the past.
[/quote]


it was (attempted) to be more in the vein of.... despite who was right, or who was wrong...in the hypothetical scenario where saying if he had been signed in the normal time period, as say the guy he's always compared with (michael oher), do you wonder where his career would be at this stage. sorry for blowing it.

i'm sure i'll have many other legitimate options to take jabs at mike when i sincerely mean to, and again that wasn't my intent here.

sidenote....other than the delayed gresham signing, anyone paying close attention would note that mike's been getting nothing but solid atta baby's from me this whole offseason for what he's accomplished. but let's not let that destroy any predisposed mindsets.

oh, and i would like to get the little matter of our coach's contract worked out, as well.

[bengaled]

[quote name='Enon Bengal' timestamp='1282602049' post='909466']
Based on that comment, you've obviously never run a business...
[/quote]

that would be a correct assumption. but then again, if i did, or i had, i'd think it would be fair to compare my ways of doing business with my other competitors, especially in a controlled environment of 32. perhaps you're saying that's not a legitimate thing to do?

we're getting off the beaten track, here, mr. successful businessman.

[CougarQuest]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1282588853' post='909373']
do any of you ever wonder what might have transpired if [s]mike[/s] Oakland hadn't[s] tried to [/s]blown up the slotting system last year
[/quote]

[CougarQuest]

[quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1282579673' post='909336']
^^^^
This. And after seeing practice, if he's 360, Bobbie's 375. The two of them came back to the lockeroom at almost the same time, and everybody said "damn, Bobbie's huge"!!
[/quote]

The difference is Bobbie is HUGE in the chest and shoulders. The dude is like a walking billboard.

[bengaled]

[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1282601416' post='909462']
If Katie & Mike had caved what would've happened is he'd be getting paid however many millions guaranteed even if he's out of shape & playing like crap. Keels (sp?) got bent over with an incentive-based contract that protects the franchise pretty damn well for the #6 overall if he doesn't no-shit show up & play like one. That deal impressed the hell out of me, honestly. Quite a reach to say he doesn't break his foot if he signs a contract 2-3 weeks earlier.
[/quote]

why is it "if katie and mike had caved"? they were the ones offering the contract that was out of the norm of everyone else in the league, much as they always do and are quite famous for. can you really attempt to deny that? and i'd say it's moreso of a reach to say "it was 2-3 weeks" when in reality, it was 30 days. 30 days represents more than twice the earliest part of your assessment. and why is my hypothesis such a reach in the first place? because it doesn't fit your comfort zone, so you're unwilling to allow your mind to go there?

two events have factored hugely in andre smith's career, so far. the 30 day contract snafu and the broken bone in his foot, which then caused off season surgery to correct, limiting his ability to work out. they have both played a factor in his weight control problems, much as i'd expect they would.

[CougarQuest]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1282606288' post='909482']
why is it "if katie and mike had caved"? they were the ones offering the contract that was out of the norm of everyone else in the league, much as they always do and are quite famous for. can you really attempt to deny that?


[/quote]

Oakland is the team that blew the slotting system with the non-QB raise. The Bengals kept in line with normal percentage increases over the previous year, and with most of the rest of the league last year.

[bengaled]

so, for the way you see things, what it comes down to is, there's ALWAYS an excuse, right? it's ALWAYS someone else's fault. i see.

that leads me to another one of my crazy random thoughts, so bear with me. don't you suppose if for once we were proactive and make a bona fide attempt at signing our pick before the oaklands (or team X,Y, or Z) signs their pick... we wouldn't have to deal with those "supposed" outrageous parameters they set for us?

the things that make you go, hmmm.

[bengaled]

[quote name='CougarQuest' timestamp='1282606616' post='909484']
Oakland is the team that blew the slotting system with the non-QB raise. The Bengals kept in line with normal percentage increases over the previous year, and with most of the rest of the league last year.
[/quote]


no, no, no...you don't really believe that. take a look at it.

[bengaled]

i REALLY want to move on. i've allowed myself to get off the beaten track, due to some of these false responses. god, i'm easy.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1282603473' post='909473']
it was (attempted) to be more in the vein of.... despite who was right, or who was wrong...in the hypothetical scenario where saying if he had been signed in the normal time period, as say the guy he's always compared with (michael oher), do you wonder where his career would be at this stage. sorry for blowing it.

i'm sure i'll have many other legitimate options to take jabs at mike when i sincerely mean to, and again that wasn't my intent here.

sidenote....other than the delayed gresham signing, anyone paying close attention would note that mike's been getting nothing but solid atta baby's from me this whole offseason for what he's accomplished. but let's not let that destroy any predisposed mindsets.

oh, and i would like to get the little matter of our coach's contract worked out, as well.
[/quote]



looking back (and no you can't change who was drafted), would you not approve of how the Bengals handled the Andre contract and the clauses they fought for that held up the deal?

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1282603473' post='909473']

sidenote....other than the delayed gresham signing, anyone paying close attention would note that mike's been getting nothing but solid atta baby's from me this whole offseason for what he's accomplished. but let's not let that destroy any predisposed mindsets.

[/quote]


ok so in your mind, the Andre deal was much Mikes fault because he didn't hold to the slot (even though they did).



Now this year, the Bengals held to the slot and Gresham got what he was due, but it's still Mike's fault?



So (according to you) he did the wrong thing one year and the right thing the next, but both still resulted in holdouts. Maybe there's more at work than just the owner? Ever consider that?

[bengaled]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1282609355' post='909496']
ok so in your mind, the Andre deal was much Mikes fault because he didn't hold to the slot (even though they did).



Now this year, the Bengals held to the slot and Gresham got what he was due, but it's still Mike's fault?



So (according to you) he did the wrong thing one year and the right thing the next, but both still resulted in holdouts. Maybe there's more at work than just the owner? Ever consider that?
[/quote]

damnit, sure he paid the slot (for gresham)...the problem was (much as it's been many years) a matter of when he was WILLING to pay the slot. there was no need for it to drag out as long as it did. jerome lost valuable time and was the last of 5 first round picks his agent signed...AND the next to last pick, yet again.


go back and look at andre's rediculous deal and see if you can honestly convince yourself that was the case. no openminded person could call that a slotted deal.

[bengaled]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1282608940' post='909495']
looking back (and no you can't change who was drafted), would you not approve of how the Bengals handled the Andre contract and the clauses they fought for that held up the deal?
[/quote]


how they handled it? absolutely not

the clauses they put into it...i have no problem with them. i 'm not convinced andre or his agent did either. conversely, being paid their fair (slot)share of money was always the problem and they stated that over and over again. even katie said..."i don't understand...i'm offering them a whole bunch of my money, but it's not enough". never, anywhere, did i hear that clauses were what held the deal up. it was money. they wanted their fair share, and this was reported ad nauseam....thirty days worth.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1282612376' post='909504']
damnit, sure he paid the slot (for gresham)...the problem was (much as it's been many years) a matter of when he was WILLING to pay the slot. there was no need for it to drag out as long as it did. jerome lost valuable time and was the last of 5 first round picks his agent signed...AND the next to last pick, yet again.


go back and look at andre's rediculous deal and see if you can honestly convince yourself that was the case. no openminded person could call that a slotted deal.
[/quote]


I'd love to see your proof that ownership is who dragged it out. I'll wait.



As for Andre's deal, his overall money was slotted, fairly. You can make a case on the guaranteed money


[quote]1. Matthew Stafford QB Detroit Signed 6 years, $72 million ($41.7M guaranteed)
2. Jason Smith OT St. Louis Signed 5 years, $61.775 million ($33M guaranteed)
3. Tyson Jackson DE Kansas City Signed 5 years, $57 million ($31M guaranteed)
4. Aaron Curry LB Seattle Signed 6 years, $60 million ($34M guaranteed)
5. Mark Sanchez QB N.Y. Jets Signed 5 years, $60 million ($28M guaranteed)
6. Andre Smith OT Cincinnati Signed 6 years, $42 million ($21M guaranteed)
7. Darrius Heyward-Bey WR Oakland Signed 5 years, $38.25 million ($23.5M guaranteed)
8. Eugene Monroe OT Jacksonville Signed 5 years, $35.4 million ($19.2M guaranteed)
9. B.J. Raji DT Green Bay Signed 5 years, $28.5 million ($18M guaranteed)
10. Michael Crabtree WR San Francisco Signed 6 years, $40 million ($17M guaranteed)[/quote]




And you've still ignored my original question. Looking back, how can you look at the way the contract was structured and how Andre has slacked, and not conclude that the Bengals were justified in the contract they did?

The Bengals protected themselves against a rookie possibly not living up to his contract. Why are you damning them instead of damning the other teams that should be doing the same thing?

I hope you're not for a rookie cap, because it will have the same philosophy. Protecting the teams against unproven players.


Yes, I'd love nothing more than our rookies to be in time every year. But I also understand that the system is screwed, and think its admirable that Mike Brown acknowledges it and doesn't just bend over like the rest of the owners do.


Paul was a pioneer when it came to the game and the football side of things. When it comes to the cap, CBA, etc, Mike may not be a pioneer, but if more owners stood up to the problems in the system, we wouldn't be looking at a work stoppage for next season.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1282612785' post='909506']
how they handled it? absolutely not

the clauses they put into it...i have no problem with them. i 'm not convinced andre or his agent did either. conversely, being paid their fair (slot)share of money was always the problem and they stated that over and over again. even katie said..."i don't understand...i'm offering them a whole bunch of my money, but it's not enough". never, anywhere, did i hear that clauses were what held the deal up. it was money. they wanted their fair share, and this was reported ad nauseam....thirty days worth.
[/quote]


well if you want to go by what Katie says, the deal he signed is pretty close to the original deal that Andre was offered money wise. They just got creative with the language (ie the clauses).

[CougarQuest]

[quote name='bengaled' timestamp='1282607320' post='909489']
no, no, no...you don't really believe that. take a look at it.
[/quote]

Absolutely do believe it. And I stated such when it was happening. Go back and look. Actually check the previous three-four years out for their slot. Actually look at the non-QB percentage increases during those three-four years. The Jets drafted a QB so their's was naturally going to be a larger percentage raise than most for their slot, but the Raider's owner decided it was time to screw everyone around them, not just his own team that year. They came in extremely early and extremely high for their slot based on percentage averages from previous years for their slot. And the Bengals were stuck between the Jets and the Raiders. No one could have predicted that Al Davis would do that. Al Davis' actions would make sense is if his ultimate goal was to break the slot system.

In years past, I'd agree the Bengals brass were the cause. But absolutely not last year.