Lockout Opinion

[mongo]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1305685360' post='993209']
Anyone on the owners side: fuck you.
[/quote]

Anyone picking a side in this is naive. Both sides are right, wrong, saints, and sinners... That said, the next dickbag in this whole mess who says he cares about the fans while he sits by doing nothing about it needs to be humped by a herd of hippos.

[sois]

[quote name='mongo' timestamp='1305688292' post='993221']
Anyone picking a side in this is naive. Both sides are right, wrong, saints, and sinners... That said, the next dickbag in this whole mess who says he cares about the fans while he sits by doing nothing about it needs to be humped by a herd of hippos.
[/quote]

Nah, football without owners = same cool product.
Football without elite players = crappy CFL.

If all the owners died tomorrow, nobody would be sad.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1305685906' post='993213']
blah, blah-blah, blah-blah.


1) De Smith has said repeatedly that the NFLPA ultimately chose him because they knew this would go to court.

2) There was nothing "illegal" about the tv deal. The Judge merely placed an injunction on the league from collecting during the lockout.

3) There is no collective bargaining agreement anymore, nor is there currently a union, so the players aren't entitled to shit at this point.


And yes, bussinessmen are smart for covering their asses. How do you think most of them got to where they are?
[/quote]

1. The facth that the players knew this would go to court was because of the [b]OWNERS[/b] behavior, not theirs. So I agree that was probabaly why they chose De Smith to represent them.

2. The issue of the legality of the TV has yet to be resolved. It was clearly negotiated in violation of the terms of the CBA that existed at the time.

3. Even if there is no CBA the players still have employment contracts with the teams. How can the teams legally avoid paying them what they are due under their individual contracts? Seemes to me I have seen a lot of talk around here about how anyone that doesn't honor a contract is a pussy. Have you heard any of that?

Now give me a list of all the unions that have signed off on a CBA without seeing the corporate financial statements.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1305685906' post='993213']

And yes, bussinessmen are smart for covering their asses. How do you think most of them got to where they are?
[/quote]

By ripping off ignorant rubes, but still getting theses rubes to take their side.

[sparky151]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1305684830' post='993204']
It is impossible to engage in any meaningful collective bargaining without both sides having this infornmation.

Name any union that has cut a deal for its members without this information. I realize that most collective bargaining occurs with publically traded corporations, but I just can't see how you can have collective bargaining withiout this info. A CBA basically creates a partnership arrangement. Would you enter into apartnership agreement withour haveing access to the parnership books?
[/quote]


Huh? The old CBA was negotiated without the union seeing where the teams spent all their money. If I were a player, I'd care more about a lot of things than seeing where the owners spend all their money. Even if open books are required, the owners can still send the money to a controlled entity which is all the union is entitled to see. The ultimate destination for those dollars would still be hidden.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='sparky151' timestamp='1305690570' post='993225']
If I were a player, I'd care more about a lot of things than seeing where the owners spend all their money.[/quote]


And the players didn't care until the owners locked them out because of the issue of where the owners spend all their money.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1305690125' post='993224']
By ripping off ignorant rubes, but still getting theses rubes to take their side.
[/quote]


1) They've gotten very little money from me.

2) It's only a "ripoff" if you take it for more than it is, a form of entertainment.

3) That still doesn't change the fact that they smartly setup a backup plan, which is their right. They are the owner, they assume the risk, and they are certainly entitled to more than 40% of their own pie.

[mongo]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1305689245' post='993222']
Nah, football without owners = same cool product.
Football without elite players = crappy CFL.

If all the owners died tomorrow, nobody would be sad.
[/quote]


I think you make my point quite nicely. The NFL had worlds of talent when it was getting preempted for Heidi. It takes terrific ownership and great players to make the NFL America's favorite sport... Ask the NHL if all you need is talented players.

[mullichicken25]

[quote name='mongo' timestamp='1305718714' post='993235']
I think you make my point quite nicely. The NFL had worlds of talent when it was getting preempted for Heidi. It takes terrific ownership and great players to make the NFL America's favorite sport... Ask the NHL if all you need is talented players.
[/quote]

I fail to see how the nhls relative unpopularity in comparison to the NFL is because of bad ownership

[mongo]

[quote name='mullichicken25' timestamp='1305721481' post='993249']
I fail to see how the nhls relative unpopularity in comparison to the NFL is because of bad ownership
[/quote]

They created an environment that allowed for even the Penguins to flirt with bankruptcy, and were forced to cancel an entire season in order to create a CBA that would work. All of this occurred at a time when they were growing in popularity (Lemieux, Gretzky, network televised games, etc...).

[oldschooler]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1305665126' post='993124']
The replacement games were a huge failure. The stands were half empty.
[/quote]


The replacement players were brought in after the 3rd week of the season.
With basically no time to prepare for the players or coaches. I think under those
circumstances, even the current crop of players would play some pretty "bad" football.
And TV revenues were only down 20% from when the "regular" players played.



And the NFL needs players to play the game, but the players don't make the game.

Hell, counting Chad and Carson, the Bengals have a grand total of 4 players left (the others are Bobbie Williams & Geathers)
that were on their 2005 roster. Losing all of those players make you less of a Bengals fan?

[fredtoast]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1305718636' post='993234']


3) That still doesn't change the fact that they smartly setup a backup plan, which is their right. They are the owner, they assume the risk, and they are certainly entitled to more than 40% of their own pie.
[/quote]


So you have fallen for the myth that NFL owners are "at risk"?

Typical rube.


BTW the TV deal is illegal because under the CBA the owners were required to negotiate any deal like that with the best interest of their partner, the NFLPA, as a consideration. Since it is clear the owners cut that deal specifically to fund their lockout of the players the owners are going to get hit hard with an anti-trust violation.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1305723482' post='993256']


And the NFL needs players to play the game, but the players don't make the game.

[/quote]


So the reason fans like the NFL more than the UFL is because they are all huge Bob Kraft and Jerry Jones fans?

How many Dan Rooney Fatheads were sold last year?

[oldschooler]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1305723845' post='993260']
So the reason fans like the NFL more than the UFL is because they are all huge Bob Kraft and Jerry Jones fans?

How many Dan Rooney Fatheads were sold last year?
[/quote]


I love how you ignore my questions and pose some of your own.
I'll ask one more time. The Bengals could very well have a total
of 2 players on their roster that were on the 2005 teams' roster.
Will you be less of a Bengals fan if that happens?


I think you are confusing people being fans of TEAMS with being fans of owners.
I don't think it is a players versus owner debate. It is a players versus team debate.

Do people buy Bengal Helmet Fatheads? Do people buy merchandise that has no player
at all represented? Players come and go, the league remains. After the current crop of players
are long gone, the NFL will remain. They aren't going to fold up their shops and call it all off
when these players are gone. You know that. So why be stupid about it?

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1305723590' post='993257']
So you have fallen for the myth that NFL owners are "at risk"?

Typical rube.


BTW the TV deal is illegal because under the CBA the owners were required to negotiate any deal like that with the best interest of their partner, the NFLPA, as a consideration. Since it is clear the owners cut that deal specifically to fund their lockout of the players the owners are going to get hit hard with an anti-trust violation.
[/quote]
Do you ever try to have a discourse with someone and NOT act like an infected gnarly fuckstick?

Seriously, you have some valid points, but the rest of your diatribe(s) are your opinion and feelings... which are neither right or wrong. You complain about "rubes", yet when you obviously think so highly of your opinion and self, I guess everyone looks like a rube.

Try actually having a meaningful and informed conversation without the insults occasionally.

I WAS there during the last strike, and if you think I'm on the players OR owners side you are dead wrong. Neither one is totally right or wrong, and in our capitalistic society you can't blame either side for trying to get what they want.

It IS billionaires VS millionaires, especially considering the median household income in the US is around $47K. IF the "typical" NFL players career is 3 years, and the rookie minimum is around $300K, then a "typical" NFL player will make around $1 million in 3 years. Not too mention that these rookies ALL had the chance to earn a college degree for free. Just as obvious is the fact the owners are raking in the cash.

Compare that to the average fan that SUPPORTS the NFL and it's players. Simple math tells us it takes 10 years for them to earn what the typical NFL player will earn in their career... and they WON'T have a chance at that degree either.

So... your argument against it NOT being billionaires VS millionaires is TOTAL HORSESHIT, especially to the people that are the reason that the NFL exists... THE FAN.

As far as unions go, they have been so abused and distorted, that they generally serve no purpose other than to pay lazy bastards a metric butt ton of money while they don't work for it.

I know this as fact too, as the son of a 30 year auto worker and SEEING what those asinine unions did and having intimate knowledge of the WORST union in existence, the US Postal Service.

Tell you what fred, if you want to talk shit and slam people, why don't you try something called RESPECT for others opinions, even if they don't agree with you.

Since I DON'T see angels flying, trumpets blaring, and miracles being performed from your posts, it's also quite obvious that you are NOT God...

quit trying to act like you are.

[mongo]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1305723845' post='993260']
So the reason fans like the NFL more than the UFL is because they are all huge Bob Kraft and Jerry Jones fans?

How many Dan Rooney Fatheads were sold last year?
[/quote]

I can't tell if you're totally serious, or being willfully combative. Fans indeed prefer higher talent levels in a given sport. That said, I believe people prefer the NFL in a landslide over all other major league sports because of the work of owners and front offices.

[sois]

[quote name='mongo' timestamp='1305718714' post='993235']
I think you make my point quite nicely. The NFL had worlds of talent when it was getting preempted for Heidi. It takes terrific ownership and great players to make the NFL America's favorite sport... Ask the NHL if all you need is talented players.
[/quote]

Nah, any bumbling fool can run an NFL team (See Bill Bidwell) but it takes talent to make people watch. Hell, even NFL teams start blacking out television when the games get too crappy. [b]People love football and want to see the best of the best, not scrubs. The sport at the highest level is what people love.[/b] That's why the UFL is floundering and the NFL is king.

Put all of the NFL players in the UFL's hypothetical 32 teams and the UFL will instantly crush the NFL.

This is not a normal industry, the commodity is the skill of the players and nothing else.

The owners are bitches who want to skim more off the top. If you don't like how much you're making, fucking sell the team, there are lots of people out there who would kill to take your spot.

[|kennethmw|]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1305718636' post='993234']
1) They've gotten very little money from me.

2) It's only a "ripoff" if you take it for more than it is, a form of entertainment.

3) That still doesn't change the fact that they smartly setup a backup plan, which is their right. They are the owner, they assume the risk, [b]and they are certainly entitled to more than 40% of their own pie.[/b]
[/quote]

Yes, they are and they currently get more than 40%. 1181, you are generally a fairly intelligent guy, so read this article, digest it, and quit stating that 40% number.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bears-huddle/2011/03/nfl-lockout-for-dummies-the-2011-labor-dispute-explained.html

[fredtoast]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1305724680' post='993262']
I love how you ignore my questions and pose some of your own.
I'll ask one more time. The Bengals could very well have a total
of 2 players on their roster that were on the 2005 teams' roster.
Will you be less of a Bengals fan if that happens?


I think you are confusing people being fans of TEAMS with being fans of owners.
I don't think it is a players versus owner debate. It is a players versus team debate.

Do people buy Bengal Helmet Fatheads? Do people buy merchandise that has no player
at all represented? Players come and go, the league remains. After the current crop of players
are long gone, the NFL will remain. They aren't going to fold up their shops and call it all off
when these players are gone. You know that. So why be stupid about it?
[/quote]

Minor league baseball teams have been around for as long as major league teams, but fans still won't pay the same price to see a minor league game as a major league game.

Arena League football has been around 20 years and fans won't pay the same price to see an Arena League or UFL game as they will for an NFL game.

And history has proven that fans won't attend NFL game played by replacements as well as they attend NFL games played by the best players on the planet.

The players make the NFL not the owners.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1305726366' post='993271']
Put all of the NFL players in the UFL's hypothetical 32 teams and the UFL will instantly crush the NFL.

[/quote]

Anyone disagree with this?

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='kennethmw' timestamp='1305728790' post='993275']
Yes, they are and they currently get more than 40%. 1181, you are generally a fairly intelligent guy, so read this article, digest it, and quit stating that 40% number.

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bears-huddle/2011/03/nfl-lockout-for-dummies-the-2011-labor-dispute-explained.html
[/quote]


I don't really need to read it. I know what you're getting at, and while "40%" may not be technically accurate, the point remains. The players are getting a more than fair piece of the pie.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1305718636' post='993234'] They are the owner, [b]they assume the risk,[/b]
[/quote]

How many owners have been paralyzed during an NFL game?

How many owners have permanent disabilities due to owning an NFL team?

What is the average lifespan of an NFL owner compared to an NFL player?

And when was the last time an NFL owner lost money?

[fredtoast]

[quote name='mongo' timestamp='1305725167' post='993266'] I believe people prefer the NFL in a landslide over all other major league sports because of the work of owners and front offices.
[/quote]

So you became a Bengal fan because of Mike Brown?

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='fredtoast' timestamp='1305729292' post='993279']
How many owners have been paralyzed during an NFL game?

How many owners have permanent disabilities due to owning an NFL team?

What is the average lifespan of an NFL owner compared to an NFL player?

And when was the last time an NFL owner lost money?
[/quote]


Players know what they are getting into when they sign up for the NFL, and every single one of them is very well paid for their services.

Spare me the pity for a group of people where the guys who aren't even on the official roster are pulling down $80K a year.

[fredtoast]

[quote name='USN Bengal' timestamp='1305725152' post='993265']

So... your argument against it NOT being billionaires VS millionaires is TOTAL HORSESHIT,




it's also quite obvious that you are NOT God...quit trying to act like you are.
[/quote]


1. I never said it wasn't billionaires vs millionaires. But even in a fight between millionaires and billionaires it is possible for me to see which side is right.



2. You are forgiven for doubting me.