Occupy Wall Street

[Jim Finklestein]

[quote name='Numbers' timestamp='1319809238' post='1052072']
Out of curiousity, how much does it cost to actually hold an event in Oakland as the OWS has done ? Do they have permits and a liability policy to protect the people there ? Do they pay for police monitoring and supervision and overtime ? If I was to hold an event there for whatever purpose I wanted, I would be held to alot higher standard and refuse to believe that these people actually understand they undermined my support by thinking they too are above the law. Wrongs have been committed by BOTH sides. Granted the protesters do not have guns (for the most part) but they have been commiting rape and other crimes in addition to the ones being committed against them.

In regards to Scott Olsen, shame on you Oakland PD and shame on you Mayor Jean Quan. Blame Carson Palmer...

Google search "occupy wall street"AND"rape" to understand just how many rapes are allegedly being committed by the peaceful protesters.
[/quote]
I haven't seen any coverage at all for ows and rapes, and I did google both. I saw a bunch of conservative message boards spreading it around, but no independent sources.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Jim Finklestein' timestamp='1319826373' post='1052142']
I haven't seen any coverage at all for ows and rapes, and I did google both. I saw a bunch of conservative message boards spreading it around, but no independent sources.
[/quote]


What Sean Hannity forums arent independent?

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jim Finklestein' timestamp='1319826373' post='1052142']
I haven't seen any coverage at all for ows and rapes, and I did google both. I saw a bunch of conservative message boards spreading it around, but no independent sources.
[/quote]

I know for sure San Fran paper, Seattle paper, and one other that aren't "conservative message boards" all had stories of incidents of rape and drug use amongst the Occupiers...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1319828481' post='1052148']

I know for sure San Fran paper, Seattle paper, and one other that aren't "conservative message boards" all had stories of incidents of rape and drug use amongst the Occupiers...
[/quote]


Can you link theses?

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1319831648' post='1052154']


Can you link theses?
[/quote]
[url="http://www.insidebayarea.com/oakland/ci_19139575"]San Fran[/url]
[url="http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Police-Seattle-public-masturbator-arrested-2224403.php"]Seattle[/url]
[url="http://www.katu.com/news/local/131399153.html"]Seattle, again[/url]

These, not sure of website affiliation... want to make clear - I'm not attacking occupy any more than I attacked Tea Partiers... IMO, each has a relevant argument and are attacking the problem - just from opposite ends. I know Jamie and I disagree on that, but, again, just my opinion.

[url="http://www.dnainfo.com/20111012/downtown/occupy-wall-street-works-with-cops-keep-order-zuccotti-park"]Manhattan[/url]
[url="http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-occupy-baltimore-rape-20111019,0,3542147.story"]Baltimore[/url]
[url="http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/10/24/accusations-of-teen-runaway-sexual-activity-at-occupy-dallas/"]Dallas[/url]
[url="http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Police-release-crime-statistics-from-around-Occupy-132358078.html"]Portland[/url]

Just a quick smattering from about a 5 minute search.

[Jamie_B]

I think we disagree on the solutions to the problem, not the problem correct?

My issue with the TP is their solutions, not so much with the TP themselves. (At least in theory, I do have issue with those funding them. IE: The Koch Brothers)

[|Numbers|]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1319828481' post='1052148']

I know for sure San Fran paper, Seattle paper, and one other that aren't "conservative message boards" all had stories of incidents of rape and drug use amongst the Occupiers...
[/quote]

Thank You. It is difficult to say these are peaceful protesters. Most if not all human beings are subject to creating acts of violence. I remember hearing stories from my parents of the Weather Underground. Peaceful ? No. I also remember the Civil Rights protests going on when I was in the second grade. Peaceful ? Mostly Yes. Were others that were opposed to the Civil Rights ? No. I defintely remember a protest in which the corner of Preston Highway and Outer Loop was blocked because of simultaneous protests between the Civil Rights and the KKK. Peaceful ? Yes and No. On the surface it appeared peaceful but later when I was waiting for my teacher to arrive at school I was told they started searching all cars and rummaging through everything with dogs and multiple policemen. It was odd that my teacher would be searched because she was a nun wearing her Habit (nun clothes). Once she arrived, the boxes of art material paper and other things were all crumpled and torn. We still had art that day but it is hard to get out of my head. They searched her car for a bomb and/or bomb making equipment. The newspapers covered the fights between the 3 (or 4) groups present (KKK, Civil Rights, and police) and the beaten people on all sides.

In regards to Gandhi, he was peaceful but remember that many of his followers (not all of them) were in those riots between Muslim and Hindu in which hundreds of thousands died.

[Jim Finklestein]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1319832387' post='1052156']
want to make clear - I'm not attacking occupy any more than I attacked Tea Partiers... IMO, each has a relevant argument and are attacking the problem - just from opposite ends.
[/quote]

I can agree with this to an extent. I don't agree with the tea parties solution but I think there are some similarities between the two.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Jim Finklestein' timestamp='1319835534' post='1052168']

I can agree with this to an extent. I don't agree with the tea parties solution but I think there are some similarities between the two.
[/quote]


I would agree. Both want to end crony capitalism, and both dont want bailouts that the taxpayers pay for. Now their solutions I would imagine are vastly different.

[Marvin]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1319832387' post='1052156']
[url="http://www.insidebayarea.com/oakland/ci_19139575"]San Fran[/url]
[url="http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Police-Seattle-public-masturbator-arrested-2224403.php"]Seattle[/url]
[url="http://www.katu.com/news/local/131399153.html"]Seattle, again[/url]

These, not sure of website affiliation... want to make clear - I'm not attacking occupy any more than I attacked Tea Partiers... IMO, each has a relevant argument and are attacking the problem - just from opposite ends. I know Jamie and I disagree on that, but, again, just my opinion.

[url="http://www.dnainfo.com/20111012/downtown/occupy-wall-street-works-with-cops-keep-order-zuccotti-park"]Manhattan[/url]
[url="http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-md-ci-occupy-baltimore-rape-20111019,0,3542147.story"]Baltimore[/url]
[url="http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/10/24/accusations-of-teen-runaway-sexual-activity-at-occupy-dallas/"]Dallas[/url]
[url="http://www.kgw.com/news/local/Police-release-crime-statistics-from-around-Occupy-132358078.html"]Portland[/url]

Just a quick smattering from about a 5 minute search.[/quote]

Did anyone even read these links?

Drug use, sure. But there are no rapes mentioned, the sexual assault from Portland (second Seattle link) is without a victim. This type of demonstration is sure to attract a seedy element that has no affiliation to the occupites.

[CincyInDC]

I heard Hand Banana showed up at Occupy New Jersey and raped my friend Carl.

[img]http://1.1.1.8/bmi/www.vegetablerevolution.co.uk/uploads/838232.jpg[/img]

[Squirrlnutz]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1319845547' post='1052194']
Did anyone even read these links?

Drug use, sure. But there are no rapes mentioned, the sexual assault from Portland (second Seattle link) is without a victim. This type of demonstration is sure to attract a seedy element that has no affiliation to the occupites.
[/quote]

Agreed.

Numbers, you are normally sensible but...

[quote]"to understand just how many rapes are allegedly being committed by the peaceful protesters" [/quote]

Really? That's blatantly dishonest and grasping at straws to knock the movement.

[Jamie_B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HdsXt5lPro

Schiff is one disingenuous son of a bitch.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1319859714' post='1052219']
Schiff is one disingenuous son of a bitch.
[/quote]

I think he makes some legitimate points.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGL-Ex1CD1c[/media]

I don't think he's any more disingenuous than the protesters, or the rest of us. Everyone has their own perspective, which can lead to myopic views, opinions and agendas. The truth depends on perspective.

[BengalBacker]

Rumble porn.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cs6fQs8-QE[/media]

[Jamie_B]

Let me ask you this and Ill tell you why he is either ignorant or disingenuous. (And truth is not a matter of perspective Obi Wan Kanobi )

Do you know why the FDIC was created?

[Homer_Rice]

Going backwards up the thread here.

1. Schiff's heart seems to be in the right place, but his flaw appears to be a desire to wedge history into his ideology. This whole "free markets made America great" meme is simply inaccurate. Likewise his animus contra government in and of itself. And that's a shame because he is on the mark in certain details--the US has historically had high wages in comparison with other countries. Although conditions have changed in some respects over the centuries,[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=C2QUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA435&dq=ben+franklin+wages&hl=en&ei=TzCsToP4Lsjv0gGmvfGNDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false"] it's worth reading Ben Franklin on the subject.[/url]

And Schiff is definitely way off base with regard to insuring bank deposits. You are absolutely correct there, Jamie. Don't know if he is being disingenuous or if he is simply blinded by his ideological framework. One other thing regarding Schiff's comments, as this comes up time and time again: the "1% are the creators of wealth" meme (and it's various other similar constructs) is peculiar propaganda to buttress the notion that (to use Marxian language here) the owners of the means of production are somehow more intrinsic to the development of wealth than the laboring classes. That's a simplification and one doesn't need Marx to supply a meaningful critique of that idea. [url="http://books.google.com/books?id=gCk5AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=hamilton+report+on+manufactures&hl=en&ei=LzKsTvfqEKnV0QHx86SGDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false"]Hamilton deals with it in his Report on Manufactures[/url]. It is true that there needs to be some manner of captial formation in order to finance large-scale industrial activity, including transportaion, distribution, etc... And here in the US the corporation tends to be the locus for much of that activity. However, it is equally true that government intervention in the economy has acted to direct certain kinds of investment. Keep in mind that while the object of a corporation (generally) is to maximize it's profit; the object of good government is too provide a stable and equitable social environment in which everyone can flourish. That's an important idea that sometimes gets lost in the wash, imo.

Any history of the US rise to economic power has to deal with the fact that much of the economic thinking of the 18th and 19th century was actually in opposition to the which is taught in colleges today. One of the key economists, who took on many of the key ideas of classical liberal economics, was Henry C Carey. [url="http://books.google.com/books?id=70IKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=carey+wealth+of+what+does+it+consist&source=bl&ots=Ae5X0OTwe4&sig=yk0C9vpWfWYNCYZXqyXnQoDB6eg&hl=en&ei=ATWsToavDKeJsQK8o-zhDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false"]Here's what Carey had to say in his, "Wealth: Of What Does It Consist?"[/url]

2. Three ideas/things/approaches to making the world safe for Backer's grandaughter:

--Education: Each and every human being is unique in the universe. There will never be another you. Therefore, your relationship to the rest of the universe ought to be informed, creative, and an acknowledgment of the simple fact that it is possible (and some might suggest morally imperative, to use Kant's term) for each and every human being to contribute to the development of the universe as a whole. As a corollary to this notion, because each and every human is in a one-to-one relation with the universe-at-large, each discovery made by an individual is also unique--at least to that person. So, in some sense, it is important for each human to "reinvent the wheel," not so much because we need a lot of wheels, but because each human being needs to prove, individually to oneself, the creative power of their mind. This is the font of progress--for individuals, for societies, and not accidentally, for the universe as a whole. We are co-participants in the ongoing creation of the universe. Or not, if we miss the boat. No child should be deprived of a pedagogical approach to these ideas and that means not just math and science, but music and art, history and literature, the whole nine yards. And it ought to be cheap and within the reach of anyone regardless of their economic situation.

--Good Government Which Emphasizes Social and Economic Justice: Washington called it the "great experiment." What did he mean by that? One of the top-flight historians of the colonial and revolutionary period is Bernard Bailyn. In his Bancroft prize winning book, "The Ideological Origins of the American Revolution," he devotes an entire chapter to a key aspect of this idea. He cites James Madison at the beginning:

[quote]In Europe, the charters of liberty have been granted by power. American has set the example and France has followed it, of charters of power granted by liberty. This revolution in the practice of the world may, with an honest praise, be pronounced the most triumphant epoch of its history and the most consoling presage of its happiness. --James Madison, 1792[/quote]

Read that as many times as you need, to get the profound import of what he is suggesting. And contemplate our own times once you do.

There are times in history when arbitrary power determines what happens, essentially by fiat and dictate. And Justice rarely enters into consideration during such periods. Instead, it is the use of force which dictates policy. What makes the US unique in the history of the world is that it is the first modern nation to codify the notion that power (or dominion, which is a frequently used term of the period) results from innate human freedom. And not the other way around. True, we have never lived up to the full promise of the idea, but there it is. We associate with each other by choice, based on notions of what it means to be human, and we govern our affairs accordingly. By choice. By agreement. By reasonable discussion. Not because the holders of power are so morally weak to think that putting one's foot on another's neck is the right thing to do, simply because one can do it. Because we give power to those who best exemplify what it means to be human. Among other things, to be human is to seek to do good.

Let's live outside our skins.

--A MIssion: For the future to hold any promise beyond the proverbial foot on the neck, we need a grand mission--some more or less unifying set of goals which requires generations to accomplish. It is staring us in the face. We need to colonize the solar system. Not only for the opportunities is will offer to millions of humans who want to do something useful with their lives, and not merely for the economic and technological gains such an effort would engender. We need to do it because that is what the universe demands of us, as free humans co-participating in creation.

3. On OWS and its offshoots: The 99% meme is smart. People are angry. On the other hand, thus far this is a "lefty" anarcho-radical gig with a taint of Soros/Acorn/Democratic co-option. Hey, if we "lefties" bitch about the Koch brothers, we have to acknowledge the snakes in our own kitchen. If this serves to pressure folks in power to adopt some positive changes with respect to regulating/returning our economy back towards sanity, then I think moderate, generally apolitical citizens have to get involved. It may happen because we are in a period in which so much injustice abides.

[Jim Finklestein]

I agree with most of that Homer. The part I don't agree with is that the #OWS movement is co-opted by the leftists. They are continuously saying they are just as mad at Obama and the Dems as they are with the Repubs. Obama's miraculous rise to power through his message of change and hope, has actually caused much of the anger and unrest we see today. Unprecedented amounts of young voters turned out because of that message, only to see;

Obama surround himself with Wall Street executives on his cabinet.
Obama selecting the CEO of G friggan E to run his jobs creation council- This same GE that shortly after Obama selected their CEO for this position announced they were moving 5000 jobs overseas.
The bankers who caused the Great Recession to get away scott free while the 1% accomplished a huge transfer of wealth from the middle class to themselves (homes that people had put years of wealth into being taken away and given to banks, bail-outs, tax loopholes, loss of retirment funds (my parents lost an amazing 60%!!),etc.)
Obama who said he would eschew donations from lobbyists, meeting with said lobbyists across the street from the white house so they wont show up in records. Raising $15 million from contribution "bundlers" etc.
Obama pushing yet another Free Trade deal with South Korea, Columbia etc,
Obama creating a health care system that started well, but ended being 25000 pages written by the insurance companies.
The perception of Cronyism in the Solyndra affair.
etc etc.

Perhaps they ARE left leaning. However they are no fans of Obama. He probably represents the worst, because of all of his promises for change, then whoring himself to Wall Street. Of course the Dems are continuously trying to co-opt the OWS message and claim it as their version of the Tea Party.

/end rant

[Homer_Rice]

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly with you on Obama and his administration, Jim. I was skeptical of him during the campaign. Guys like that don't come out of nowhere. Of course, for a while there I liked Edwards...so what do I know! And I think you have expressed the anger at Obama/Wall St. much like those in the streets would, which is commendable. But, it is just as commendable that the "instinctual" Tea Party person thinks the way they do, too. Co-option is not related to that aspect of things, on either side of the aisle.

That said, some investigative leads:

--Where did the wiggly-finger consensus model come from?
--Who is Adbusters?
--What is the Tides Foundation?

[Jim Finklestein]

I forgot to mention that almost half of the original members in NYC were Libertarians.
1. If you mean the girl in my sig, that is Jessica Biehl.
2. Adbusters is the org that came up with the idea to occupy wall street in a tweet back in July. They are a "pro-environment, anti-consumerism" nonprofit org according to Wiki. I don't think they actually attended the rally though, their contribution was to just say in a word You guys should show up at wall st on Constitution day.

3. Tides foundation is an org that funnels money to progressive causes. I am sure that part of #OWS's $400K has come through it.

What I meant to say in my first post is that yes the OWS is left-leaning, but it definitely is not Democrat. Right now it basically is a conglomeration of leftists, liberals, libertarians, anarchists (a few),people for social justice and pissed off unemployed and underemployed people. I am hoping none of the above co-opt the movement. The reason it is working (already it is larger than the tea party movement was) is the fact that there really is no defined leadership and it is 100% transparent. How it evolves should be quite interesting I think.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Jim Finklestein' timestamp='1319932908' post='1052372']
I forgot to mention that almost half of the original members in NYC were Libertarians.
1. If you mean the girl in my sig, that is Jessica Biehl.
2. Adbusters is the org that came up with the idea to occupy wall street in a tweet back in July. They are a "pro-environment, anti-consumerism" nonprofit org according to Wiki. I don't think they actually attended the rally though, their contribution was to just say in a word You guys should show up at wall st on Constitution day.

3. Tides foundation is an org that funnels money to progressive causes. I am sure that part of #OWS's $400K has come through it.

What I meant to say in my first post is that yes the OWS is left-leaning, but it definitely is not Democrat. Right now it basically is a conglomeration of leftists, liberals, libertarians, anarchists (a few),people for social justice and pissed off unemployed and underemployed people. I am hoping none of the above co-opt the movement. The reason it is working (already it is larger than the tea party movement was) is the fact that there really is no defined leadership and it is 100% transparent. How it evolves should be quite interesting I think.
[/quote]

I agree. What this evolves into could be very good. Could also be very bad. I forgot to mention OTPOR! with respect to the co-option factor. Follow the money...and the National Endowment for Democracy--which is one of those Orwellian names for something pretty evil, imo.

And no, I wasn't referring to Biel--though co-incidental, that completely escaped me. I was referring to how the OWS people make decisions on site.

[|Numbers|]

[quote name='Marvin' timestamp='1319845547' post='1052194']
Did anyone even read these links?

Drug use, sure. But there are no rapes mentioned, the sexual assault from Portland (second Seattle link) is without a victim. This type of demonstration is sure to attract a seedy element that has no affiliation to the occupites.
[/quote]

Did you search "rape"AND"occupy wall street" or anything similar ? There is an element that exists in all organizations that leans towards violence. As stated previously, even Ghandi's own organization which was largely peaceful had violent people active. Cleveland, Glasgow, Dallas, etc... It's not just rape, it is many other things as well.

[quote]NY: 10/1/2011 — Police Arrest More Than 700 Protesters on Brooklyn Bridge
Madison, WI: 10-27-2011 — Madison Occupiers Lose Permit Due to Public Masturbation
Phoenix: 10/28/2011 — Flier at Occupy Phoenix Asks, “When Should You Shoot a Cop?”
NY: 10/18/2011 — Thieves Preying on Fellow Protesters
NY: 10/9/2011 — Stinking up Wall Street: Protesters Accused of Living in Filth as Shocking Pictures Show One Demonstrator Defecating on a POLICE CAR
NY: 10/7/2011 — Occupiers Rush Police … More
Cleveland: 10/18/2011 — ‘Occupy Cleveland’ Protester Alleges She Was Raped
NY: 10/10/2011 — ‘Increasingly Debauched’: Are Sex, Drugs & Poor Sanitation Eclipsing Occupy Wall Street?
Seattle: 10/18/2011 — Man Accused of Exposing Self to Children Arrested
10/12/2011 — Iran Supports ‘Occupy Wall Street’
Portland: 10/16/2011 – #OccupyPortland Protester Desecrates Memorial To U.S. War Dead
Portland: 10/15/2011 — #OccupyPortland Protesters Sing “F*** The USA”
Chicago: 10/17/2011 — COMMUNIST LEADER Cheered at Occupy Chicago
10/15/2011 — American Nazi Party Endorses Occupy Wall Street‘s ’Courage,‘ Tells Members to Support Protests and Fight ’Judeo-Capitalist Banksters’
Boston: 10/14/2011 — Coast Guard member spit on near Occupy Boston tents
Boston: 10/11/2011 — Boston Police Arrest Over 100 from Occupy Boston
New York: 10/11/2011 — “You Can Have Sex with Animals.”
New York: 10/15/2011 — Harassing Police with Accusations of Phony Injuries
New York: 10/9/2011 – ‘Occupy Wallstreet’ Protesters Steal from Local Businesses
New York: 10/25/2011 — Three Men Threatened to Kill 24-Year-Old Occupy Wall Street Protester for Reporting Rape
Baltimore: 10/18/2011 — #OccupyBaltimore Discourages Sexual Assault Victims from Contacting Police
Portland: 10/27/2011 — Occupy Portland’s Attempt At Wealth Redistribution Ends In Theft
Los Angeles: 10/14/2011 – Anti-Semitic Protester at Occupy Wall Street
10/27/2011 — A Death Threat From an Occupy Wall Street Protester
10/27/2011 – Anti-Semitic Tweet From Occupier or Sympathizer
Boston: 10/20/2011 — Occupy Boston Doesn’t Want Police Involved in Rape
New York: 10/5/2011: Anti-Semitic Occupier Screams About Jews, Israel
New York: 10/4/2011 — Occupier Taunts Jewish Man
Boston: 10/2011 — Occupiers Block Street
New York: 10/2011 — Occupier Tries to Steal Police Officer’s Gun
New York: 10/27/2011 — Occupiers Block Traffic, Get Arrested
Oakland: 10/27/2011 — Occupiers Throw Garbage at Police
Oakland: 10/19/2011 — Abusive #OccupyOakland Protesters Ban Media from Tent City
Eugene, OR: 10/19/2011 — Occupiers Displace Farmers’ Market Threatening Hundreds of Jobs
Portland, OR: 10/18/2011 — Capitalist Offering Jobs at Occupy Portland Finds Few Takers
NY: 10/20/2011 — #OccupyWallStreet Threatens Businesses, Patrons
NY: 10/14/2011 — Violence Breaks Out During #OccupyWallStreet March Toward Stock Exchange
NY: 10/14/2011 — Protesters March On Wall Street, Scuffle With Cops
Oakland: 10/19/2011 — #OccupyOakland Protesters Threaten Reporter
Oakland: 10/26/2011 — Occupiers Scuffle with Police
Oakland: 10/24/2011 — Protesters Storm, Vandalize, Shut Down Chase Bank
Dayton, OH: 10/22/2011 — Protester: ‘F*ck The Military, F*ck Your Flag, And F*ck The Police’
Chicago: 10/14/2011 – Protesters’ Message At #OccupyChicago Rally: ‘Destroy Israel’
NY: 10/23/2011 — #OccupyWallStreet Supporter Rants Against Israel, Jews
NY: 10/22/2011 — #Occupy Kid: ‘Burn Wall Street, Burn!’
NY: 10/21/2011 — New Yorkers Fed Up With Noisy, Defecating Protesters
Oakland: 10/21/2011 — Occupy Oakland Evicted After Reports Of Crime And Intimidation
Oakland: 10/19/2011 — #OccupyOakland Out of Control: Rats, Graffiti, Vandalism, Sexual Harassment, Public Sex and Urination
Chicago: 10/26/2011 – Occupiers Under Investigation by FBI for Links to Terrorism
Cleveland: 10/29/2011 — Rape Reported at Occupy Cleveland
Dallas: 10/24/2011 — Police Investigating Possible Sexual Assault Of Teen At Occupy Dallas
Bloomington, IN: 10/26/2011 — Man Claims Occupy Bloomington Protesters Drugged, Handcuffed Him
NY: 10/10/2011 — Sex, Drugs and Hiding from the Law at Wall Street Protests
Glasgow: 10/26/2011 — Woman Gang-Raped
Boston: 10/23/2011 — Occupy Boston Protesters Arrested For Dealing Heroin – With 6 Year-Old in Tent
Portland: 10/16/2011 – Sex Offender Registers Occupy Portland Camp as Address
Denver: 10/15/2011 — Occupy Denver Demonstrator Accused of Groping TV Photographer
Lawrence, KS: 10/25/2011 — Sexual Assault Reported at Occupy Camp
Minneapolis, MN: Bricks, Rocks, ‘Riot Supplies’ Discovered by Police
Phoenix, AZ: 10/27/2011 — Neo-Nazis Patrol “Occupy Phoenix” With AR-15′s
Chicago: 10/26/2011 — Occupy Chicago Invades City Hall
10/26/2011 — ACORN, Occupy Email Talks About Assault on Banks
10/26/2011 – OccupyWallStreet Strategy for Reports of Violence Against Cops
Chicago: 10/26/2011 — Unrepentant Domestic Terrorist Bill Ayers Wows Occupiers
Chicago: 10/25/2011 — Ayers Coaches #OccupyChicago, Callsg for School ‘Occupations’
10/26/2011 — Occupy Protests Have Jewish Leaders Concerned
Wash DC: 10/27/2011 – OccupyDC Leftists Provoke Police – Hang Flag on Top of DC Statue
Albuquerque, NM: 10/26/2011 — Occupy Squatters Riot With Police
San Diego: 10/25/2011 — Flag Used as Chew Toy by Occupier’s Dog
Oakland: 10/25/2011 — Occupiers Throw Bottles at Police
NY: 10/27/2011 — Occupy Wall Street Protesters: Rush Limbaugh Is Bigger Threat Than Al-Qaeda
10/27/2011 — Occupy Wall Street Launching First Nationwide General Strike in America Since 1946
NY: 10/28/2011 — Fox 5 News Reporter Assaulted at OWS
10/28/2001 — Total Occupy Arrests Made Thus Far: 2750
Nashville: 10/28/2011 — 30 Arrests Made at Wall St. Protest
NY: 10/20/2011 — Former Marine Tries to Taunt Police into Violence
NY: 1023/2011 — Islamist Group Joins with Occupy Wall Street
Los Angeles: 10/13/2011 — Roundup of Overt Occupy anti-Semitism
NY: 10/12/2011 — There are No Anti-Semites at Occupy Wall Street. Except for This Guy
Missoula, MT: 10/20/2011 — Drunk 11-Year-Old At Occupy Missoula, Adult Arrested
Oakland: 10/28/2011 — Bounty Out On Police Officer?[/quote]

[quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1319856138' post='1052213']

Agreed.

Numbers, you are normally sensible but...

Really? That's blatantly dishonest and grasping at straws to knock the movement.
[/quote]

I agree it was blatantly ([i]unsubtle and unashamed manner[/i]) stated but it was not dishonest to my knowledge. It is not grasping at straws to knock a movement of sorts. I FULLY support their right to protest, its a right that I truly believe in. A right that should not be allowed to be dishonored by those who who would subvert a cause for their own personal benefit. I [u][b]try[/b][/u] and see both sides (Dialectic if you will). Numerous sources were reviewed and I also talked with a few people who are heavily involved in the local area. I maintain close ties with the protesters but not the radical element that exists within ANY organizations with the exception of the Bengals...

Jim and Homer see some of the root causes of this whole mess. It is not to stir against one side or the other but to actually FIX the problem and the only way to do just that is to sit down and discuss the matter rationally and try to see both sides of the argument. It makes sensational media releases when the rapes, drugs, police brutality, etc... happens but it does not solve the problem. It only sets people into a block of stone and they're not going to move one way or another on the subject. The whole matter may bring people to the table but it may not make them speak with understanding of the others arguments.

Homer, on a side note... Did you dress up in your disco costume this year ?

Lastly, if any one here spends time with the protesters in any of the cities where this is going on does not hear of some form of violence being carried out within the organization (OWS) and outside the organization (police, etc...) is just plain blind.

[Jamie_B]

[url="http://www.businessinsider.com/marine-with-crowd-control-training-points-out-oakland-used-methods-prohibited-in-war-zones-2011-10#ixzz1c8ROOQpG"]http://www.businessinsider.com/marine-with-crowd-control-training-points-out-oakland-used-methods-prohibited-in-war-zones-2011-10#ixzz1c8ROOQpG[/url]



[quote]
[b] Marine Says Oakland Used Crowd Control Methods That Are Prohibited In War Zones[/b]
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As the events that led to Oakland protester Scott Olsen's head injury continue to unfold and investigations begin, we thought it important to offer some perspective.

[/left][/size][/font][/color][/left][color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3][left]This comment is from a former Marine with special operations in crowd control.[/left][/size][/font][/color][/left][color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3][left]He points out that shooting canisters such as those that likely hit Scott Olsen is prohibited under rules of engagements in Iraq and Afghanistan. Regardless of any political position on the Occupy protests, these are some [url="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/lqv57/marines_to_oakland_police_you_did_this_to_my/"]Interesting insights:[/url][/left][/size][/font][/color][/left][color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3][left]
Before gas goes into a crowd shield bearers have to be making no progress moving a crowd or crowd must be assaulting the line. Not with sticks and stones but a no bullshit assault. 3 warnings must be given to the crowd in a manner they can hear that force is about to be used. Shield bearers take a knee and CS gas is released in grenade form first to fog out your lines because you have gas masks. You then kick the canisters along in front of your lines. Projectile gas is not used except for longer ranged engagement or trying to steer the crowd ( by steering a crowd I mean firing gas to block a street off ). You also have shotguns with beanbags and various less than lethal rounds for your launchers. These are the rules for a WARZONE!!

How did a cop who is supposed to have training on his weapon system accidentally SHOOT someone in the head with a 40mm gas canister? Simple. He was aiming at him.

I'll be the first to admit a 40mm round is tricky to aim if you are inexperienced but anyone can tell the difference between aiming at head level and going for range.

The person that pulled that trigger has no business being a cop. He sent that round out with the intention of doing some serious damage to the protestors. I don't care what the protestors were doing. I never broke my rules of engagement in Iraq or Afghanistan. So I can't imagine what a protester in the states did to deserve a headshot with a 40mm. He's damn lucky to be alive and that cop knows he was using lethal force against a protester he is supposed to be protecting.[/left][/size][/font][/color][/left][color=#000000][font=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][size=3][left]Additionally: Jesse Davis mentions "The methods prohibited in war, and actions after the fact are also against war zone policy." [url="http://i.imgur.com/W5had.jpg"]Check out his infographic here.[/url]

Specifically these two transcribed directly from [url="http://www.businessinsider.com/blackboard/us-army"]US Army[/url] Law of War/Law of Armed Conflict training.

The Military manual states:
[i]…have a duty to collect and care for the wounded. Prioritize treatment according to injuries. Make NO treatment distinction based on nationality. All soldiers, enemy or friendly, must be treated the same.[/i]

Second, the officer threw a flash-bang directly into a group of people trying to carry him away for medical treatment. Here's the Military guidance on that decision:
[i]Medical Personnel Considered out of combat if they exclusively engaged in medical duties. (GWS, art. 24.) Doctors, surgeons, nurses, chemists, stretcher-bearers, medics, corpsman, and orderlies, etc..., who are “exclusively engaged” in the direct care of the wounded and sick.[/i]
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[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1319984419' post='1052451']
[url="http://www.businessinsider.com/marine-with-crowd-control-training-points-out-oakland-used-methods-prohibited-in-war-zones-2011-10#ixzz1c8ROOQpG"]http://www.businessi...0#ixzz1c8ROOQpG[/url]
[/quote]
In all fairness, I have to wonder how much training the cops had in crowd control and firing the canisters.

It would seem to me that these would be specialty areas that would require a lot of extra training that can be expensive and seldomly used which means they had no real life experience with this type of situation....

I am not condoning what they did, but having experience being in these types of uncontrolled situations, I can guarantee most of the cops involved were as scared as the protestors as things got out of control...which also leads to poor decision making.
This should have been handled better from the top down, and punishment should start there instead of trying to single out a particular cop.....

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1319992247' post='1052503']
In all fairness, I have to wonder how much training the cops had in crowd control and firing the canisters.

It would seem to me that these would be specialty areas that would require a lot of extra training that can be expensive and seldomly used which means they had no real life experience with this type of situation....

I am not condoning what they did, but having experience being in these types of uncontrolled situations, I can guarantee most of the cops involved were as scared as the protestors as things got out of control...which also leads to poor decision making.
This should have been handled better from the top down, and punishment should start there instead of trying to single out a particular cop.....
[/quote]


I wonder if they got any training from LAPD who would be versed in it.