Cutter: Romney, Ryan 'entire reason' Libya attack is political issue

[bengalrick]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1350233959' post='1169770']
My opinion, FWIW:

This is a classic example of why I am disappointed in the Obama admin. Their foreign policy, like the preceding admin's, is a militaristic expression of the Washington Consensus. There's more to it than that of course, but when you get down to the rub, it's the desire for a WC world which underlies both Repub and Dem policy orientations. Whereas the Bush admin was a pretty naked iron fist, the Obama admin is more velvet glove. But it boils down to the same smelly distillation: the US will seek to run the world on it's terms as the sole "super-power" now that the Cold War is over. No matter that as each year passes we are more frequently exposed as an emperor with no clothes.

So, when something happens on an anniversary of 9-11, for crying out out, to try to pretend it is not a radical response to our attempts to impose ourselves on the world in this way is the height of political crapola. Shame on the Obama admin for trying to pull the wool over our eyes on this.

All the empirical details of who, what, when and how are subordinate to "Why" here. And the "Why" is, in this case, along the lines with what Lara Logan said in the video Backer posted: there is a lot of anti-American policy sentiment out there in the world. It's real and it's not going away simply because we now have a Nobel Peace prize winning Prez who prefers a more "sanitary" drone war to the in-your-face ground-pounders and grunts preferred by the previous admin.

I personally believe that AM foreign policy ought to be developing a new paradigm which is a bit less confrontational. It's possible to maintain our current role as the predominant "republic" in the world instead of this stupid striving to be an American Empire because we somehow out-lasted the Soviets.

So, yeah, this admin tried to spin this thing politically, instead of using it as an opportunity to distinguish itself from it's predecessor.
[/quote]

Believe it or not, I agree with you Homer. It has taken a lot of thought, and more importantly, pain to overcome my "hawkish" security values... I still think a strong defense is extremely important but defense is different than offense. Point blank, as bad as Gaddofi (and in the past Hussein) were absolutely EVIL people, its not like we are being hailed as great liberators for getting rid of them. I feel bad for people that have to live in countries like these and rulers like these, but we are damned if we do, damned if we don't. Lets just stay closer to home, have the baddest military in the world, and focus on building our economy back to where it should be if its not too late. And by building our economy, I don't mean on paper but in real terms like bringing jobs back, paying our debts, and not racking up a chunk of debt for my children. No more phony money and pumping more cash into the system. That's like a heroin addict taking heroin because if he doesn't he is going to have withdraws .. Yeah we will certainly have withdraws but it will be worth it in 10 years imo.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1350265511' post='1170779']
Believe it or not, I agree with you Homer.[b] It has taken a lot of thought, and more importantly, pain to overcome my "hawkish" security values..[/b]. I still think a strong defense is extremely important but defense is different than offense. Point blank, as bad as Gaddofi (and in the past Hussein) were absolutely EVIL people, its not like we are being hailed as great liberators for getting rid of them. I feel bad for people that have to live in countries like these and rulers like these, but we are damned if we do, damned if we don't. Lets just stay closer to home, have the baddest military in the world, and focus on building our economy back to where it should be if its not too late. And by building our economy, I don't mean on paper but in real terms like bringing jobs back, paying our debts, and not racking up a chunk of debt for my children. No more phony money and pumping more cash into the system. That's like a heroin addict taking heroin because if he doesn't he is going to have withdraws .. Yeah we will certainly have withdraws but it will be worth it in 10 years imo.
[/quote]

It was a decade + long journey for me (throw in evolving from a right-wing bible-thumping godbot to a skeptical agnostic to an atheist and there was quite a bit of cognitive dissonance going on in my head).

We've not always agreed on these boards, but I firmly believe that if we were to sit down over a couple of beers we would be strikingly similar in our perspective and stance on a great number of things.

Oh, and don't forget rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure as well...

[Lewdog]

[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1350265511' post='1170779']
Believe it or not, I agree with you Homer. It has taken a lot of thought, and more importantly, pain to overcome my "hawkish" security values... I still think a strong defense is extremely important but defense is different than offense. Point blank, as bad as Gaddofi (and in the past Hussein) were absolutely EVIL people, its not like we are being hailed as great liberators for getting rid of them. I feel bad for people that have to live in countries like these and rulers like these, but we are damned if we do, damned if we don't. Lets just stay closer to home, have the baddest military in the world, and focus on building our economy back to where it should be if its not too late. And by building our economy, I don't mean on paper but in real terms like bringing jobs back, paying our debts, and not racking up a chunk of debt for my children. No more phony money and pumping more cash into the system. That's like a heroin addict taking heroin because if he doesn't he is going to have withdraws .. Yeah we will certainly have withdraws but it will be worth it in 10 years imo.
[/quote]

Did you watch Bungholes links to movies about North Korea? The United States has a President, Congress, and a Supreme Court that can't get along, while in North Korea they have millions and millions all brain dead that their leaders are the greatest people to ever live. Everything done by them from a special reading desk (not really special) and a damn that actually created floods instead of what it was intended for. How? Seriously, how can that happen there and we can't get people work together here? I'm sure is it about money, it always is.

[bengalrick]

[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1350269685' post='1170818']
Did you watch Bungholes links to movies about North Korea? The United States has a President, Congress, and a Supreme Court that can't get along, while in North Korea they have millions and millions all brain dead that their leaders are the greatest people to ever live. Everything done by them from a special reading desk (not really special) and a damn that actually created floods instead of what it was intended for. How? Seriously, how can that happen there and we can't get people work together here? I'm sure is it about money, it always is.
[/quote]

no I haven't... I don't remember seeing where that was. You got a link? Doubt I'll have time until next week but sounds like something I should watch.

[Lewdog]

[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1350273195' post='1170856']
no I haven't... I don't remember seeing where that was. You got a link? Doubt I'll have time until next week but sounds like something I should watch.
[/quote]

Here's the link: [url="http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-3"]http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-3[/url]

There are three videos to watch, it takes less than an hour. It's not really a documentary about North Korea, but it's about Americans that go there as tourist and film it. It's pretty sad and funny.

[bengalrick]

[quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1350266512' post='1170784']
It was a decade + long journey for me (throw in evolving from a right-wing bible-thumping godbot to a skeptical agnostic to an atheist and there was quite a bit of cognitive dissonance going on in my head).

We've not always agreed on these boards, but I firmly believe that if we were to sit down over a couple of beers we would be strikingly similar in our perspective and stance on a great number of things.

Oh, and don't forget rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure as well...
[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken, we work in a very similar career field as well. I remember running some things by you while I was still in school...

I'm sure your right and hope one of these days to have some beers with a number of you. Although I definitely try to avoid alcohol and politics

I have actually strengthened my faith with Jesus during this time. My faith has gotten me through some extremely hard times in the near past so I don't think I'll have quite as big of a transformation as you have had. But politically I have came a long way


[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1350273454' post='1170859']
Here's the link: [url="http://www.vice.com/the-vice-guide-to-travel/vice-guide-to-north-korea-1-of-3"]http://www.vice.com/...th-korea-1-of-3[/url]

There are three videos to watch, it takes less than an hour. It's not really a documentary about North Korea, but it's about Americans that go there as tourist and film it. It's pretty sad and funny.
[/quote]

Awesome and thanks. Will watch this as soon as I get some downtime.

[Lewdog]

BTW I was flipping through channels and on MSNBC I think it was, they were interviewing an expert that was ripping the White House a new asshole for not giving the Consulate the extra protection it asked for.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1350273569' post='1170860']
If I'm not mistaken, we work in a very similar career field as well. I remember running some things by you while I was still in school...

I'm sure your right and hope one of these days to have some beers with a number of you. Although I definitely try to avoid alcohol and politics

[/quote]

I'm in IT, so that would go to figure.

And Phhht! Alcohol is the only thing that makes politics interesting...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1350265511' post='1170779']
Believe it or not, I agree with you Homer. It has taken a lot of thought, and more importantly, pain to overcome my "hawkish" security values... I still think a strong defense is extremely important but defense is different than offense. Point blank, as bad as Gaddofi (and in the past Hussein) were absolutely EVIL people, its not like we are being hailed as great liberators for getting rid of them. I feel bad for people that have to live in countries like these and rulers like these, but we are damned if we do, damned if we don't. Lets just stay closer to home, have the baddest military in the world, and focus on building our economy back to where it should be if its not too late. And by building our economy, I don't mean on paper but in real terms like bringing jobs back, paying our debts, and not racking up a chunk of debt for my children. No more phony money and pumping more cash into the system. That's like a heroin addict taking heroin because if he doesn't he is going to have withdraws .. Yeah we will certainly have withdraws but it will be worth it in 10 years imo.
[/quote]

I'm glad to hear this Rick, its a position I came to rather quickly when having clearance and knowing Scooter Libby was lying about Plame, for me that was tangible. The reason we are damned if we do and damned if we dont imo, is they view us as a capitalistic imperialist country, meaning they dont think we care about them if we cant sell them shit, they are probably right. The clearest example of this was when they burnt down a KFC to me.

Now I dont necessarily agree re: your economic positions, but were on the same page about the hawks.

[Lewdog]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1350305466' post='1170891']
I'm glad to hear this Rick, its a position I came to rather quickly when having clearance and knowing Scooter Libby was lying about Plame, for me that was tangible. The reason we are damned if we do and damned if we dont imo, is they view us as a capitalistic imperialist country, meaning they dont think we care about them if we cant sell them shit, they are probably right. The clearest example of this was when [b]they burnt down a KFC to me[/b].

Now I dont necessarily agree re: your economic positions, but were on the same page about the hawks.
[/quote]

I live in Kentucky, in my opinion this is reason enough to go to war.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1350305466' post='1170891']
The reason we are damned if we do and damned if we dont imo, is they view us as a capitalistic imperialist country, meaning they dont think we care about them if we cant sell them shit, they are probably right.
[/quote]

Jamie, and forum, assuming this is the case... and we essentially pull back from our current foreign policy stance... how does that fix what Jamie has stated here. Unless we continue to throw money, aid, etc. at these foreign countries they're still going to have this view are they not? They're still going to see us as a capitalistic country that unless they buy shit from us we have no use for them... Aren't they?

Understand, I'm all for shrinking ourselves and protect / build / strengthen home... I just don't see how we'll still not be vilified from the capitalistic angle if we're not just throwing hush money / aid at these countries...

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1350317228' post='1170942']
I live in Kentucky, in my opinion this is reason enough to go to war.
[/quote]



[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1350317495' post='1170943']
Jamie, and forum, assuming this is the case... and we essentially pull back from our current foreign policy stance... how does that fix what Jamie has stated here. Unless we continue to throw money, aid, etc. at these foreign countries they're still going to have this view are they not? They're still going to see us as a capitalistic country that unless they buy shit from us we have no use for them... Aren't they?

Understand, I'm all for shrinking ourselves and protect / build / strengthen home... I just don't see how we'll still not be vilified from the capitalistic angle if we're not just throwing hush money / aid at these countries...
[/quote]

Tough question. I think you have to start at home by ensuring the neo-con element is never in power again.

[Lewdog]

I made a rather large post about the world's view of the United States. I'm not sure there is anything the U.S. can do to change it. One thing I know for sure, the country doesn't need to just open it's check book and give out money to these countries to use at their pleasure. If the other countries are in bad shape, more than likely the government is a large part of the reason, and the funds the U.S. gives them isn't going to go for it's intended purpose. Let Russia or China bail some people out every now and then.

How about we have a world draft and the U.S., Russia, and China will take turns picking their 'little brother countries' to help out when they need it.

[Lewdog]

Have you heard the saying "take one for the team?" Well that is what Hillary Clinton did today. She took the blame for the screw up in Libya. It's just a ploy to cover the President's ass. He gets re-elected she still has a job.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/clinton-tells-cnn-responsibility-libya-attack-010005118.html

[|Bunghole|]

I don't think that outside of the Muslim-dominated countries that we are quite as hated as people like to believe. Especially if a country is in need of help. I think our situation is more like a person that despises but needs a lawyer or a cop. They are grateful when they are there when they need one, disgruntled when they aren't, and in general disparage the profession of either when neither scenario applies.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1350355122' post='1171194']
Have you heard the saying "take one for the team?" Well that is what Hillary Clinton did today. She took the blame for the screw up in Libya. It's just a ploy to cover the President's ass. [color=#ff0000] He gets re-elected she still has a job.[/color]

[url="http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/clinton-tells-cnn-responsibility-libya-attack-010005118.html"]http://news.yahoo.co...-010005118.html[/url]
[/quote]


except that she has said shes leaving after the election

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1350317495' post='1170943']
Jamie, and forum, assuming this is the case... and we essentially pull back from our current foreign policy stance... how does that fix what Jamie has stated here. Unless we continue to throw money, aid, etc. at these foreign countries they're still going to have this view are they not? They're still going to see us as a capitalistic country that unless they buy shit from us we have no use for them... Aren't they?

Understand, I'm all for shrinking ourselves and protect / build / strengthen home... I just don't see how we'll still not be vilified from the capitalistic angle if we're not just throwing hush money / aid at these countries...
[/quote]

It's not the prosperity that other people hate, imo. Well-established and profitable trade between nations is great reason not to go to war with each other. And, as Bung says, outside of those parts of the world which are dominated by irrational fundamentalism (and all fundamentalism is, in final analysis, irrational) people generally take the "I like US people, but worry about their government" slant.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1350394838' post='1171232']
It's not the prosperity that other people hate, imo. Well-established and profitable trade between nations is great reason not to go to war with each other. And, as Bung says, outside of those parts of the world which are dominated by irrational fundamentalism (and all fundamentalism is, in final analysis, irrational) people generally take the "I like US people, but worry about their government" slant.
[/quote]

Ok - Homer... let's go with your stance which is counter to what Jamie claims.

assuming this is the case... based on the graph Jamie posted it is irrelevant which political party is in office and what model of government is in place... foreign countries are still going to attack us abroad. Again, just based Jamie's graph, no factual data of my own. How do we fix that?

Understand, I'm all for shrinking ourselves and protect / build / strengthen home... I just don't see how we'll still not be vilified from this government angle if we're not just throwing hush money / aid at these countries...

[|Numbers|]

[b]EW2 Gokool[/b]
[b]USS Cole on Oct. 12, 2000[/b]
[b]Died Dec. 23, 2009[/b]

[b][img]http://www.photo-thompson.com/ssc/2005/05_11_hm_06.jpeg[/img][/b]

P.S. He [b]never[/b] blamed the president (clinton). Even though he (Gokool) acknowledged that the medical teams and Marines in Yemen were [b]delayed[/b] significantly in response to the bombing because (Yemen?) authorities did not allow them to pass into the port area to protect and respond. (His leg may have been saved had there been a prompt response). Furthermore, there was a real threat of further attacks that day as numerous ships (NON-US) were celebrating the bombing. He lost his leg but he never blamed the president. We talked when he visited Great Lakes base and I also knew him previously from Pensacola (specialty school: C school) before the bombing. Gokool suffered from PTSD and panic attacks and may have been the leading cause in his death.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1350396785' post='1171242']
Ok - Homer... let's go with your stance which is counter to what Jamie claims.

assuming this is the case... based on the graph Jamie posted it is irrelevant which political party is in office and what model of government is in place... foreign countries are still going to attack us abroad. Again, just based Jamie's graph, no factual data of my own. How do we fix that?

Understand, I'm all for shrinking ourselves and protect / build / strengthen home... I just don't see how we'll still not be vilified from this government angle if we're not just throwing hush money / aid at these countries...
[/quote]

This paragraph from Jamie?:
[quote][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]The reason we are damned if we do and damned if we dont imo, is they view us as a capitalistic imperialist country, meaning they dont think we care about them if we cant sell them shit, they are probably right.[/background][/size][/font][/color][/quote]

I'm not completely sure I understand you here, but if you are asking how we keep people from attacking us, then I suggest that removing the "imperialist" part of Jamie's formulation would be a great help.

Leading countries, no matter who they are, are going to be subject to criticism and attack simply because of their place in the scheme of things. Generally, the attackers either have political motive, or, if the attacks turn violent, are already morally corrupt to the extent that whatever their specific ideology is, it allows for violence as a "legitimate" response. If the former, it's generally tactical politics seeking some kind of advantage; if the latter; well, it's hard to stop someone bound and determined to commit violent acts from doing so. Best to seek ways to not give reasons for justifying attacks without sacrificing national security or decent policing/intelligence-gathering contra the violence-prone.

Not sure what you mean by hush money...?

[Lewdog]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1350381205' post='1171212']
except that she has said shes leaving after the election
[/quote]

Even better! someone that is about to quit takes one for the team knowing all she can do is help her boss.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1350404233' post='1171275']
Even better! someone that is about to quit takes one for the team knowing all she can do is help her boss.
[/quote]

Right only if she never plans on running for office herself, which I'm not sure I believe she isnt.

[Lewdog]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1350405991' post='1171286']
Right only if she never plans on running for office herself, which I'm not sure I believe she isnt.
[/quote]

Well, if Obama does win, I am sure he will give her some cushy high paying position that doesn't take a confirmation, or election. If Romney wins, she can then try to go back to Massachusetts and run for Romney's opening. Hell she might just retire and start traveling the country with Bill doing speaking arrangements. I heard Bill Clinton gets a crazy amount of money for doing them.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1350407091' post='1171298']
Well, if Obama does win, I am sure he will give her some cushy high paying position that doesn't take a confirmation, or election. If Romney wins, she can then try to go back to Massachusetts and run for Romney's opening. Hell she might just retire and start traveling the country with Bill doing speaking arrangements. I heard Bill Clinton gets a crazy amount of money for doing them.
[/quote]

[Lewdog]

Jamie you know it's true. I think you are a semi-smart guy, and should be able to see through these things. Whether it is a Republican or Democrat, there is more favors going on behind the scenes then we will ever know. Why do you think it took FIVE days for Hillary to come out and say it was her fault? Really? Why didn't she come out immediately with at least a statement, when the media reported that the Ambassador had asked for more protection on more than one event? The White House had to go into crisis mode to figure out what to do. When it was all said and done, Hillary who you say is not looking to stay in her position, took the bullet.


BTW, I know you are more the semi-smart.