|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I dont demonize him, I simply call a spade a spade here. You are hero worshiping, someone who really isnt all that clean. I dont have to use his words against him to call him a liar, the damned court case that Ventura won showed him to be a liar. That isnt up for debate, a court decided it. You can choose to debate that if you wish but you would be completely wrong because there were facts in a case that his estate lost showing he embellished those stories. That's on the public record. It's not an opinion when it's a matter of public record. Disclaimer: I am not in any way comparing what I have seen as a firefighter/emt to what anyone who has served in combat for the U.S. military has ever seen. When you see certain things in your job and are actually exposed in the actual events over time it changes you. To argue that Chris Kyle is not a hero because he is "not completely clean" is a very lame argument. In your opinion, no hero can ever exist. I submit to you that there is not one person on this earth that is "completely clean." We all have our faults. We have all said or done things we should not have done. The problem with bringing up the Ventura incident and using it as a tell all is you have testimony from the people who fought with Kyle that he is a hero, that he has saved lives even if that meant taking another to do it. As far as some of his comments, you do become desensitized to things that you see and your viewpoint can become jaded when you are involved in violent acts or see people die. I can attest that I have made poor humor at the expense of a patient amongst my coworkers because that is how we deal with the consent pain and suffering we see. I have seen murders, execution, stabbings, shootings, families that lost loved ones, families that just lost a baby, and families that just lost everything. If you think that this doesn't wear on you and change you over time then you are nuts. If your claim is that he lied about things that happened that made him a hero. Let me also submit that everyone on this planet sees things from a different viewpoint. I have been involved in a lot of violent situations. I can tell you my mind has become efficient at blocking things out. There are times that I start forgetting things that happened an hour ago much less years later. They always tell us in questionable situations to write down what happened right after the event in case we need the information later for court or anything else. I have done that and went back and looked at my notes later and realized I remembered what happened a lot different then what I wrote that day. If your argument is to argue the technical details of what happened in Iraq and call them lies because a few other people either remember them different or don't remember them as well then I feel that argument is pretty lame as well. Jamie, I don't know for sure so correct me if I am wrong, but you were as you put it "an army brat"... Correct? If this is the case I am assuming you did not serve in the armed forces or ever saw combat. If I am correct in this last statement, then what I can tell you is that you will never understand his comments or actions. What I know is most of the people Chris Kyle served with feel he is a hero. He saved lives with little to know collateral damage. Al Qaeda thought he was "The Devil of Ramadi." He is a hero. My fear is your argument is jaded by your view of an illegitimate war and not the legitimacy of a hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqkdZ9weAlA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|High School Harry| Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Highly recommended reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I had a long response to you TJ but accidentally hit a button on my keyboard that hit the back button on the browser. So quickly. A dictionary definition of PTSD where guys get better and are cured from it over time is spitting in the face of people I know some going as far back as Viet-nam who still do things that normal people don't do, like sleep with guns. People who believe that you can get better and back to who you were before obviously have never seen the face of PTSD and it explains much of why they are so haphazardly pro war. As to Kyle, it isn't just the Ventura stuff that he lied about, the guy talked about stuff that was off the wall, like shooting people from the top of the superdome during Katrina?? He called the Iraqi's savages and said he wanted to kill more AFTER the war was over in his book. Now I don't discount the ideal that during war you do hate the enemy to an extent as they are trying to kill you, my cousin who served in Somalia during the "Black Hawk Down" period said he hated the people trying to kill him when he was there, but he doesn't anymore. So my argument is yes with time you can get better from PTSD, but you are never really the same person and that Kyle is no hero but at best a tragic figure of what war does to a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 So quickly. A dictionary definition of PTSD where guys get better and are cured from it over time is spitting in the face of people I know some going as far back as Viet-nam who still do things that normal people don't do, like sleep with guns. People who believe that you can get better and back to who you were before obviously have never seen the face of PTSD and it explains much of why they are so haphazardly pro war. So my Uncle, Father-in-Law and one of my childhood friends, that have all been diagnosed with PTSD, faces don't count? I'll let them know. My Mom sleeps with a gun and she has never been to war or had PTSD. And I am not Pro War.I'm not anti War either though. Not everything is black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Just out of curiosity, why can't you be both a tragic figure and a hero? I would argue he is both..... That's the funny thing about life.... When I am bad I am bad...when I am good I am good... Hopefully in this life I do way more good then bad. No ones life is ever suppose to be summed up by one act, but we do it to people all the time in our everyday life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Disclaimer: I am not in any way comparing what I have seen as a firefighter/emt to what anyone who has served in combat for the U.S. military has ever seen. When you see certain things in your job and are actually exposed in the actual events over time it changes you. To argue that Chris Kyle is not a hero because he is "not completely clean" is a very lame argument. In your opinion, no hero can ever exist. I submit to you that there is not one person on this earth that is "completely clean." We all have our faults. We have all said or done things we should not have done. The problem with bringing up the Ventura incident and using it as a tell all is you have testimony from the people who fought with Kyle that he is a hero, that he has saved lives even if that meant taking another to do it. As far as some of his comments, you do become desensitized to things that you see and your viewpoint can become jaded when you are involved in violent acts or see people die. I can attest that I have made poor humor at the expense of a patient amongst my coworkers because that is how we deal with the consent pain and suffering we see. I have seen murders, execution, stabbings, shootings, families that lost loved ones, families that just lost a baby, and families that just lost everything. If you think that this doesn't wear on you and change you over time then you are nuts. If your claim is that he lied about things that happened that made him a hero. Let me also submit that everyone on this planet sees things from a different viewpoint. I have been involved in a lot of violent situations. I can tell you my mind has become efficient at blocking things out. There are times that I start forgetting things that happened an hour ago much less years later. They always tell us in questionable situations to write down what happened right after the event in case we need the information later for court or anything else. I have done that and went back and looked at my notes later and realized I remembered what happened a lot different then what I wrote that day. If your argument is to argue the technical details of what happened in Iraq and call them lies because a few other people either remember them different or don't remember them as well then I feel that argument is pretty lame as well. Jamie, I don't know for sure so correct me if I am wrong, but you were as you put it "an army brat"... Correct? If this is the case I am assuming you did not serve in the armed forces or ever saw combat. If I am correct in this last statement, then what I can tell you is that you will never understand his comments or actions. What I know is most of the people Chris Kyle served with feel he is a hero. He saved lives with little to know collateral damage. Al Qaeda thought he was "The Devil of Ramadi." He is a hero. My fear is your argument is jaded by your view of an illegitimate war and not the legitimacy of a hero. There's hundreds of snipers who did their work. Didn't right a book talking about it. Did it and didn't say I love killing etc. I think you guys are confusing what he did vs what he did and his response to what he did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 So my Uncle, Father-in-Law and one of my childhood friends, that have all been diagnosed with PTSD, faces don't count? I'll let them know. My Mom sleeps with a gun and she has never been to war or had PTSD. And I am not Pro War.I'm not anti War either though. Not everything is black and white. It's weird to sleep with a gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Both are weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 So my Uncle, Father-in-Law and one of my childhood friends, that have all been diagnosed with PTSD, faces don't count? I'll let them know. My Mom sleeps with a gun and she has never been to war or had PTSD. And I am not Pro War.I'm not anti War either though. Not everything is black and white. Were any of them the same after dealing with it? Because it has never not once ever been my experience that a person is, especially not war related PTSD and I've seen ALOT of that. Did she sleep always sleep with a gun? Did something happen that made her decide to? Because this guy didn't before Vietnam. So yes if it is someone's belief these people ever return to who they were before then it explains alot about how haphazard we are about war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Just out of curiosity, why can't you be both a tragic figure and a hero? I would argue he is both..... That's the funny thing about life.... When I am bad I am bad...when I am good I am good... Hopefully in this life I do way more good then bad. No ones life is ever suppose to be summed up by one act, but we do it to people all the time in our everyday life. I consider two people through all of history heroes. Jesus (the person existed the other stuff is for a different debate) and MLK Jr. Nobody else. Certainly not someone who called Iraqis savages and said he wished he coukd kill more after the fact when he had time to think about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I would love to see a study that compares thoughts about Kyle and iQ. The black and white thinking about this I think shows the fear that many people live with. The same fear that make people sleep with guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Were any of them the same after dealing with it? Because it has never not once ever been my experience that a person is, especially not war related PATS and I've seen ALOT of that. Did she sleep always sleep with a gun? Did something happen that made her decide to? Because this guy didn't before Vietnam. So yes if it is someone's belief these people ever return to who they were before then it explains alot about how haphazard we are about war. Yes they are pretty much the same as before. No one is ever the same as days go on though. Time and experiences changes us all for better or worse. Yes my Mom has always slept with a gun. I am not haphazard. Saddam had 13 years to comply with the terms of his surrender. Instead he shot at our pilots, he gave UN weapons inspectors the run around, he used chemical weapons on his own people and went out of his way to make the World believe he had WMDs. In a post 9-11 World and with the perpetrators right next door, that shit could not continue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I would love to see a study that compares thoughts about Kyle and iQ. The black and white thinking about this I think shows the fear that many people live with. The same fear that make people sleep with guns. You almost have trolling down to an art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 25, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 I consider two people through all of history heroes. Jesus (the person existed the other stuff is for a different debate) and MLK Jr. Nobody else. Certainly not someone who called Iraqis savages and said he wished he coukd kill more after the fact when he had time to think about that. Marcus Luttrell more of a hero than Chris Kyle (and he isnt above criticism either for selling his story) Michale P Murphy more of a hero than Chris Kyle I could go on Hmmmmmm ..... Why have a conversation with people about who they consider a hero and tell them he is no hero, when your list of heroes is so short? Or is it? Thanks You're not welcome. Any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 You do understand the words more of right? Meaning closer to but still not. And give this 13 years bs a rest we let him believe he could go into Kuwait the first time because we wanted a reason to be there. The question isn't why my list is so short its why yours is so long? Why you don't hold your heroes to more scrutiny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 And sleeping with a gun is not normal human behavior Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 You do understand the words more of right? Meaning closer to but still not. And give this 13 years bs a rest we let him believe he could go into Kuwait the first time because we wanted a reason to be there. The question isn't why my list is so short its why yours is so long? Why you don't hold your heroes to more scrutiny? More means closer but still not it? Is that spelled More or Moore? No I will not give it a rest. We let him believe then we showed him not to believe but he kept believing. Do you blame him for anything? You know he could have stopped all of this, right? My list isn't so long. I don't expect Heroes to be Gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 And sleeping with a gun is not normal human behavior Well if you knew that her Dad gave it to her when she was 14, right before he died and asked her to keep it and protect herself with it because he wouldn't be able to anymore then you might not think that way. But maybe you would? I don't care either way. Again, not everything is black and white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 More. Im being pretty clear here. You know our reasons have nothing to do with Saddam right? You also know despite being a pos he held the country together better than those running it right now right? You dont even believe in God so your Heroes should be held to a standard higher than a God you dont believe in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|High School Harry| Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 And now... a word from our sponsor [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKLnhuzh9uY[/media] Ok, carry on, carry on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 :smileyfart: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 You are all Heroes to me. so... If I go watch this movie without any preconceived bias, will i enjoy it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted January 25, 2015 Report Share Posted January 25, 2015 You dont even believe in God so your Heroes should be held to a standard higher than a God you dont believe in. I believe in God. You are all Heroes to me. so... If I go watch this movie without any preconceived bias, will i enjoy it? I would think so. It's a very good movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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