Marvin Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 As for the topic of worth. If they structure contracts that Aline more to a soft cap. MJ is free from a cap charge perspective. What's the fucking value of paying Dalton/Burfict roster bonuses days after signing the contract and taking the full hit? That methodology burnt them this past season. That's pretty short sighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyrid Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 As for the topic of worth. If they structure contracts that Aline more to a soft cap. MJ is free from a cap charge perspective.What's the fucking value of paying Dalton/Burfict roster bonuses days after signing the contract and taking the full hit? That methodology burnt them this past season. It doesn't matter at all... They have more cap space this offseason because they front loaded those contracts just a little bit. If they hadn't front loaded them, we'd have been further under the cap last year and carried that amount forward to this year. I am assuming that maybe your idea is we should have paid MJ $9M per year and lowered Dalton and Burfict's 2014 cap hits by pushing their cap numbers down last year and higher this year? Then instead of having $20M this year to spend on free agents we'd have next to no money b/c Dalton/Burfict would take up more $9M more of cap space and MJ's 2015 cap number would be taking up $9M of the $20M, so we'd have $2M to go try and sign 2 starting LBs, a starting LG, a TE, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyrid Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 And not to re-hash the MJ thing, but I personally think he is a little better than some of his naysayers believe. He'd probably have had a better 2015 here in a system he was comfortable in. The Bengals would have been better with him and they made a legit effort to keep him, offering around $6.5-7M per year. In hindsight, it is clear that even that offer was an overpay. To beat TB's offer in real money terms, we'd have had to offer him almost $10M per year (0 state income tax down there). Anyone seriously arguing the Bengals should have done that is being ridiculous and arguing just to argue (and that is the generous interpretation). As for DE for the Bengals last year, the spot opposite from Dunlap was disappointing. Hunt not stepping up was a big negative. He's trending towards bust. Gilberry was okay, but it was obvious that he is better as a part-timer as he wore down with too many snaps. I think the Bengals thought Hunt would give them more snaps (which would have also made Gilberry more effective). It didn't happen. Also, Geno playing like crap made the whole line look worse than it would have with him playing well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 That's pretty short sighted. How is winless in 6 playoff appearances short sighted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 It doesn't matter at all... They have more cap space this offseason because they front loaded those contracts just a little bit. If they hadn't front loaded them, we'd have been further under the cap last year and carried that amount forward to this year. I am assuming that maybe your idea is we should have paid MJ $9M per year and lowered Dalton and Burfict's 2014 cap hits by pushing their cap numbers down last year and higher this year? Then instead of having $20M this year to spend on free agents we'd have next to no money b/c Dalton/Burfict would take up more $9M more of cap space and MJ's 2015 cap number would be taking up $9M of the $20M, so we'd have $2M to go try and sign 2 starting LBs, a starting LG, a TE, etc. Not correct because factored into this years cap figures is another round of roster bonus for Burfict/Dalton around 8 mil. Those payments could have been structured as signing bonus and spread over life of contract. Then they do have flexibility with fat on existing contracts. The bottom line is this team makes their cap harder vs the AFC rivals using soft structures. The old fear factor is "cap hell". But what the fuck does cap hell matter when those teams are in conference championships and the Bengals are stuck in the wildcard round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairOnFire Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Who knows? You are the one claiming a bullet was dodged knowing this team failed once again to advance. Guess who doesn't get one of those 4-peat t-shirts you keep crowing about? Michael Johnson. You are the one that will use injuries as the excuse. And I guess you're the one...(because it seems as if there is always one)...who will argue injuries don't matter. Seems to me that you'll try to make some snarky analysis about MJ and Cutler (lol) to avoid acknowledging a cap strategy that has failed to produce 1 playoff victory. Your whole rant is stupid. Bengals make thousands of decisions every season. Some good, some bad. Knowing that to be true, do the Bengals stop doing the things that cleary work even though it hasn't resulted in a playoff victory? Or failing that, do they refuse to use such a stupid qualifer when debating every topic, including how much to overpay a DE who had just produced 3.5 sacks? Seems to me you got Gresh on the Brain and bunch of excuses about injuries and ignore the team took 16 mil in cap charges via contract structure/cap procedures. The more you keep trying to change the subject the more obvious it is that you no longer want to continue debating the stupid shit you wrote in post #4. Who really knows what you should be upset about because it seems like your happy with status quo and the fit of your knew 4peat shirt. Congrats! MJ left the Bengals and promptly produced 4 sacks for Tampa Bay. Why would the failure to secure his services upset me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.A.B. Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 If we're gonna be cheap asses, or try to shop for bargains, I want to take a shot at getting Larry Fitzgerald. They had some shit QBing there and he still had over 700 yards. I bet him and AJ could absolutely wreck defenses for a season or 2 before either MJ or Sanu is finally ready, or we have another full time 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 A huge portion of our cap space will go to pay AJ and resign a few guys. Some will go to a few mid tier FAs in late March. The rest will be carried over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 According to ESPN Packers reporter Rob Demovsky, indications are free agent Randall Cobb is seeking a contract that averages $9M per season. The extension Jordy Nelson signed with the Packers last season averaged $9.75M, comparable Victor Cruz is making $7.64M and last year's No. 1 free agent wideout DeSean Jackson got $8M annually. Cobb's demands could very well be met on the open market come March, as he's just 24 years old and uniquely explosive out of the slot. And we don't doubt that the Packers, who are scheduled to have nearly $23M in cap space, want him back. But it's unclear if GM Ted Thompson wants to dump all this cash on Cobb, especially with intriguing cheap youngsters like Davante Adams and Jeff Janis on the roster. Feb 16 - 12:39 PM Source: ESPN.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 With a few exceptions, the Bengals have drafted quite well over the last several years. And now... AJ Green is entering a contract season. AJ Green is AJ Green so I don't need to say anymore. Dre K has finally showed up and is entering a contract season. Marvin Jones (got injured, but I'd say the odds are much more likely to reflect his break out trajectory than not) is entering a contract season. Vontaze Burfict would have been entering a contract season, but got signed to a team and player friendly (see knee injury) deal. He's the heart and soul of this team. George Iloka is entering a contract season. He's really ascending. Reggie Nelson is entering a contract season. He's been nothing but solid since here. Andre Smith is entering a contract season. Freak injury this season aside, he's been doing a good job. Andrew Whitworth is entering a contract season. Like fine wine, he keeps getting better - but you have to start wondering about his age eventually. Brandon Thompson is entering a contract season. He's improving with every snap, imo. AND ANY OF YOU WOULD RATHER SPEND 10 MILLION OF THE DOLLARS WE'LL NEED TO SIGN THE ABOVE GUYS ON MICHAEL "I-NEVER-SNIFFED-7-SACKS-IN-A-YEAR-(OH-EXCEPT-FOR-THAT-ONE-WHERE-GENO-WENT-BESERK-WITH-12.5 AND IN-4-OF-MY-6-YEARS-IN-THE-LEAGUE-HAVE-AVERAGED 3.25 SACKS (INCLUDING 2.5 and 3 THE LAST TWO)) JOHNSON WHY?!?! I'd welcome MJ back on a very cheap deal provided we were still going to infuse the position with new, difference making talent (what he lacks). Speaking of him in any other terms is an absurd waste of breath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Johnson was great against the run and ate up blockers leading to sacks for other guys when he wasn't making plays himself by getting sacks or knocking down balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Johnson was great against the run and ate up blockers leading to sacks for other guys when he wasn't making plays himself by getting sacks or knocking down balls. If he were that guy, it would have translated to TB as well. It's not like he's playing with stiffs over there on the line. Gerald McCoy and Clint McDonald had 15 sacks 2 years ago as DT between them. But. It. Didn't. Happen. And now all the talk about MJ out of Tampa is whether or not they'll cut him lol. He wasn't that guy here. He's not that guy there. MJ was decent against the run and batting down balls. Guys like that are rightfully getting paid 2-3 M/year all over the league. 9-10M is a joke. For 9-10 M you want a guy who averages double digit sacks AND stops the run. Maybe a guy like, oh, I dunno, JPP? If you're trying to figure out what we lost from our Defense last year look no further than Mike Zimmer and Vontaze Burfict (with a sprinkle of still-not-back-to-form Geno Atkins on top). MJ's effect was about as invisible as he was in the last three playoff games he played here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 He was injured last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.A.B. Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 He was fucking injured. Enough of your retarded ass monologues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.A.B. Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 And enough of listing am every single goddamn player on the roster as a must sign. The only players on that list besides AJ we truly must resign are Andre and Iloka. Everyone else will either be old enough they won't break the bank or just fucking replaceable. And it's not like Iloka's position is known for breaking the bank in contract time. GOOD TEAMS LET OLD PLAYERS GO. Such is life motherfucker. Your point about Taze potentially being in a contract yr if we didn't resign him is stupid, because he would have taken an even more fucking team friendly deal after his injuries this year. Do I even have to mention the mistake with resigning Andy when we did for absolutely no fucking reason? Fuck your revisionist bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 taze and Andy are the examples of players who you are not really saving money on by rushing to sign them early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.A.B. Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I think we need to be prepared for a potential drop in play from Nelson this year anyways. Maybe I'm overreacting but he looked a step slower this year than in the past. He wasn't as solid in coverage as he was in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I think we need to be prepared for a potential drop in play from Nelson this year anyways. Maybe I'm overreacting but he looked a step slower this year than in the past. He wasn't as solid in coverage as he was in the past. He will be 32 by the first month of next season and while safety's can play later in years I wouldn't want to break the bank on him. I would pay Iloka whatever he pleases. He is only 24 (25 in June). As far as MJ goes, I definitely see alleycats point, but for me its rare that you get an incredible athlete like that who produces. When he was here that line and rotation were amazing. He seemingly kept Gillberry fresh and Wallace was much more effective because of it. When it comes to paying him, the question is how much is too much? I have heard several times that we offered him a great deal and he said no and he wanted more. Can't fault Cincy for trying. I probably would have kicked the deals for Dalton and Burfict a year down the road and just overpaid him with a Franchise deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 And I guess you're the one...(because it seems as if there is always one)...who will argue injuries don't matter. Not really. Injuries effect games. The cap policies implemented by this team had a negative effect on depth for this team the past year. We lost Harrison, MJ, Collins, and Hawkins and in almost every situation the position group they vacated suffered decreased production. Your whole rant is stupid. Bengals make thousands of decisions every season. Some good, some bad. Knowing that to be true, do the Bengals stop doing the things that cleary work even though it hasn't resulted in a playoff victory? Or failing that, do they refuse to use such a stupid qualifer when debating every topic, including how much to overpay a DE who had just produced 3.5 sacks? I think the issue is the team using it's cap resources to put the best team on the field to try to capture a championship when it's clear the roster is in good enough shape to win 40 games over 4 seasons and 4peat. MJ left the Bengals and promptly produced 4 sacks for Tampa Bay. Why would the failure to secure his services upset me? If drafting an Offensive Tackle in the first year would upset you. If injuries upset you. I don't think playoff loses upset you. You seem content with mediorce results. I would think if you weren't full of shit that the Bengals allowing a quality player leave via Free Agency and seeing the replacement fail miserably would upset you especially when it's pointed out that they could have fit MJ into the cap just by structuring amounts paid differently. Then added on to that carried over 8 mil to this season. Then ultimately increasing cap hits for players already under contract would have you scratching your head if this management including the Head Coach has the correct view to win a championship. Your extreme homerism has caught you in quite a contradiction. How can one cry so much about injuries and be ok with handling of the cap last year that cost them depth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 He will be 32 by the first month of next season and while safety's can play later in years I wouldn't want to break the bank on him. I would pay Iloka whatever he pleases. He is only 24 (25 in June). As far as MJ goes, I definitely see alleycats point, but for me its rare that you get an incredible athlete like that who produces. When he was here that line and rotation were amazing. He seemingly kept Gillberry fresh and Wallace was much more effective because of it. When it comes to paying him, the question is how much is too much? I have heard several times that we offered him a great deal and he said no and he wanted more. Can't fault Cincy for trying. I probably would have kicked the deals for Dalton and Burfict a year down the road and just overpaid him with a Franchise deal. The loss of MJ and Harrison had negative effects on this team in two phases. 1 the players identified to replace them weren't very good for whatever reason. Then secondly the position groups suffered set backs either by injury or recovery from injury. They got burnt by trusitng status quo it's as simple as that. Since this is a cap discussion thread. Last year they set aside cap resources for extending players already on the roster. Then compounded that decision by front loading those contracts. It was a horrible swing and miss offseason for this franchise at a critical period when the team is clearly good enough to win 40 games in 4 seasons but cant' win a freakin playoff game. This offseason with 30 mil in available space and given the available free agents to not come away with at least 1 bona fide on paper improvement really speaks volumes on what they care about. Really using "1" as the benchmark is homerish or conservative because they could be adding 2 or 3 serious players that would be upgrades especially in the front 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengals7833 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 If he were that guy, it would have translated to TB as well. It's not like he's playing with stiffs over there on the line. Gerald McCoy and Clint McDonald had 15 sacks 2 years ago as DT between them. But. It. Didn't. Happen. And now all the talk about MJ out of Tampa is whether or not they'll cut him lol. He wasn't that guy here. He's not that guy there. MJ was decent against the run and batting down balls. Guys like that are rightfully getting paid 2-3 M/year all over the league. 9-10M is a joke. For 9-10 M you want a guy who averages double digit sacks AND stops the run. Maybe a guy like, oh, I dunno, JPP? If you're trying to figure out what we lost from our Defense last year look no further than Mike Zimmer and Vontaze Burfict (with a sprinkle of still-not-back-to-form Geno Atkins on top). MJ's effect was about as invisible as he was in the last three playoff games he played here. Thank you. It drives me crazy hearing so many people on here talking mj up like he is some dominant player. He is average nothing more. Decent as part of a rotation but doesn't give you much as a starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Thank you. It drives me crazy hearing so many people on here talking mj up like he is some dominant player. He is average nothing more. Decent as part of a rotation but doesn't give you much as a starter. Drives me crazy hearing so many people on here talking up injuries as a reason for playoff failures and not noting the decline in production at MJ's spot and others. Can't pressure Luck with a beat up o-line was a factor. They parked about 16 mil in cap room last offseason that would have covered MJ contract and parked some more cap room that would have covered his cap this year. Don't like MJ? Fine. Go get another DE. Posters need to be consistent on this, IMO. Don't rant on about drafting the Best Available over the Biggest Need and then overlook cap carry overs etc that effectively rob you multiple players that improve frontline performance or depth. Don't whine and cry over injuries using them as an excuse for a Head Coach or Organization when they don't fully use their cap. Either you are in it to win it or you just happy with 4peat tshirts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Thank you. It drives me crazy hearing so many people on here talking mj up like he is some dominant player. He is average nothing more. Decent as part of a rotation but doesn't give you much as a starter. + 1 What exactly did MJ do for us in the playoff games he was here ? Yeah nothing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengals7833 Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I agree with paying another de big money. Just not mj. He isn't worth it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I agree with paying another de big money. Just not mj. He isn't worth it I'm not a fan of the Bengals for their Income Statement. Overpay, underpay whatever. You got a 40 win regular season team with 0 playoff wins. Somebody's worth it more than what they lined up in that spot last season that was a clear set back for the team. If you overpay and guess wrong do what the big boy franchises do and eat it and rework the cap as you go. It's just complete bullshit to get an offseason like last year then the very next offseason they open up with 30 mil and an easy 10 mil of fat they could get if needed. Agressive Cap Management and Dollar Spenders could realistically attempt to build the NFL HIstorically best front 7 given the available talent. They could and probably should be in play for 3 heavy hitters in the front 7. Sure they might miss big time and suffer. So what? At this point, their methodology has 0 playoff wins in the salary cap era in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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