scharm Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Now you're just trolling. Even the biggest idiots on this board will confess that, even if MJ's absence did have a deleterious affect on our sack production, it would be at least the fourth reason down the list. 1) Losing Zimmer 2) Compromised Geno 3) Losing Burfict Well wouldn't the Bengals front office know items 1 and 2 before deciding not to invest in MJ or another DE considering Zimmer was gone and Geno was injured prior to the 2014 offseason opening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 If all other constants remained the same, but that was not the case. The two major ones would be Zim gone and Geno a shell of his former self. I do say that with belief that with MJ they're closer to 30 and better in stopping the run in 2014 however. They're going to have to go out and get some one in free agency this year that's 100% apparent. A starting caliber DE, a rotation type DT (or starting if Peko is cut), a starting caliber LB and retaining Maualuga is what's necessary for me to feel good about what they have in those units going into 2015. Their second round succession plans in Hunt and Still are lost causes unfortunately. Geno was injured and the Bengals had months of rehab progress in March 2014. I hope they knew Zim was gone by then too. They still did not invest in MJ or another DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.A.B. Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I Dont even know who I'm arguing with. I'm just throwing random rants into the mix lmao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlantNGo Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Great. We sunk 8 mil of cap room just by calling it a "roster bonus" vs. "signing bonus" for the Dalton/Burfict deals. Exactly how many sacks did that portion of cap room record? How many sacks did the 8 mil of cap room we carried over record? This is an interesting point. In the past, before you could carry over unused cap space, giving out big roster bonuses rather than signing bonuses made sense. The player gets the money just the same, and the cap charge is accelerated to the current year (assuming you have lots of cap space for the current year) and remains favorable for future years. Now I argue it would be better to give it as a signing bonus and carry over the unused money. The only reason to give the big roster bonus is if the team needs it to meet the minimum spending requirement. This is a valid reason and not an "oh my god, we're cheap" reason. If you sign a bunch of extensions in the same year, the cap charge to that year will be low, and cap charges typically grow over time, so using the roster bonus to meet the minimum spending requirement is a good option to accelerate the cap charge while not screwing yourself over in future years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Well wouldn't the Bengals front office know items 1 and 2 before deciding not to invest in MJ or another DE considering Zimmer was gone and Geno was injured prior to the 2014 offseason opening? Items and 1 and 2 are relevant only in the regard that they point out that your claim that MJ was the difference on this team between 2013 and 2014 is flatly ridiculous. Points 1 and 2 are irrelevant, however, considering the main issue at hand, which sadly seems to be the same major issue you continue to miss: MJ himself was irrelevant, and regardless of any other situation the Bengals weren't going to grossly overpay for a guy who didn't make a significant impact on the team. Want proof? Go back and look at what they did. But you'll go on conflating totally irrelevant issues because then you can bounce back whenever someone makes a compelling argument by pointing to something else that is totally unrelated as some kind of defense. It's really not complicated. MJ was not a difference maker here and was especially, notably absent in our biggest games. In a weak DE market, the Bengals chose not to grossly overpay a guy what they thought - and he proved to be - worth. The fact that they didn't go out and sign another DE simply underscores the weakness of the market, and some might argue, the Bengals accurately identifying that, but it has NOTHING to do with MJ, who did nothing more than go on to prove the Bengals completely right in their decision - their decision about him. The rest of the DE market in 2014 went out and proved them right about them. In short, in both cases you are wrong, and your choice to keep conflating the two wrongs, despite your tireless efforts, fails to produce a right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 I Dont even know who I'm arguing with. I'm just throwing random rants into the mix lmao Epitomal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 This is an interesting point. In the past, before you could carry over unused cap space, giving out big roster bonuses rather than signing bonuses made sense. The player gets the money just the same, and the cap charge is accelerated to the current year (assuming you have lots of cap space for the current year) and remains favorable for future years. Now I argue it would be better to give it as a signing bonus and carry over the unused money. The only reason to give the big roster bonus is if the team needs it to meet the minimum spending requirement. This is a valid reason and not an "oh my god, we're cheap" reason. If you sign a bunch of extensions in the same year, the cap charge to that year will be low, and cap charges typically grow over time, so using the roster bonus to meet the minimum spending requirement is a good option to accelerate the cap charge while not screwing yourself over in future years. The Bengals have yet to record 1 playoff victory during the salary cap era. They have most recently suffered 4 consecutive wildcard round defeats. It's fair to question their cap methods when they haven't been able capitalize on other team's supposedly screwing themselves in the future. I believe the boogey man of "cap hell" is a rationalization. The reality that's often played out is there are always factors in cap management that help agressive teams avoid or recover quickly from "cap hell". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Items and 1 and 2 are relevant only in the regard that they point out that your claim that MJ was the difference on this team between 2013 and 2014 is flatly ridiculous. Points 1 and 2 are irrelevant, however, considering the main issue at hand, which sadly seems to be the same major issue you continue to miss: MJ himself was irrelevant, and regardless of any other situation the Bengals weren't going to grossly overpay for a guy who didn't make a significant impact on the team. Want proof? Go back and look at what they did. But you'll go on conflating totally irrelevant issues because then you can bounce back whenever someone makes a compelling argument by pointing to something else that is totally unrelated as some kind of defense. It's really not complicated. MJ was not a difference maker here and was especially, notably absent in our biggest games. In a weak DE market, the Bengals chose not to grossly overpay a guy what they thought - and he proved to be - worth. The fact that they didn't go out and sign another DE simply underscores the weakness of the market, and some might argue, the Bengals accurately identifying that, but it has NOTHING to do with MJ, who did nothing more than go on to prove the Bengals completely right in their decision - their decision about him. The rest of the DE market in 2014 went out and proved them right about them. In short, in both cases you are wrong, and your choice to keep conflating the two wrongs, despite your tireless efforts, fails to produce a right. The Bengals pass rush declined without MJ. Like it or not that's a difference. Your attempt of pointing to the loss of Zimmer and decline of Geno is not an acceptable rationalization for the management of the team because those factors were know prior to declining to invest in MJ or another DE. How many sacks did the cap carry over record this past year? How many did Dalton/Burfict roster bonus record? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Want proof? Go back and look at what they did. They lost in the wildcard round again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 They lost in the wildcard round again. Yup. With and without MJ. He was irrelevant. Good thing they didn't overpay him and stick us with an onerous contract that we'd want to get out of right away like TB did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Yup. With and without MJ. He was irrelevant. Good thing they didn't overpay him and stick us with an onerous contract that we'd want to get out of right away like TB did. lol, fan boy. oh the horrors of the cap and those free agents. It'd be so much better if we could go back to 1988. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SocalBengalEd Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 t one constant is Dalton and Marvin Lewis sucking in the playoffs. No but seriously we need a starting DE badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alleycat Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 t one constant is Dalton and Marvin Lewis sucking in the playoffs. No but seriously we need a starting DE badly. One of the reasons that this year is more likely than normal to land us a guy in FA is that there are few decent guys who should hit FA while there aren't very many 4-3 DE's in the draft. One guy who I do like that I think could get some snaps right away (and who fits the Bengals mode very well, though he doesn't have the kind of first step I want), is Preston Smith, from Miss State. I think he'll go in the 30-40 range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 another reason could be the position completely sucked when MJ left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 What I think you're missing is that the Bengals didn't think MJ was worth 9 million, or 10 million, or anything close to what Demarcus Ware got. You know how we know that? We know what they offered him, which was somewhere around 5-6, which, IMO, was still to high. He didn't bite and so they rightfully didn't lift a finger to keep him. Which was the right move, something hindsight shows us unambiguously. We had the fewest sacks in the league without him. I think it's pretty ambiguous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 OK, so which ones? Here's the list I put up: There aren't many people on that list that I hold accountable for not showing up in crunch time. There's an argument to be made the Nelson is getting old and if the number 6 overall player Landon Collins falls to you at 21 you sign him and have your safety for the future. There's an argument that Brandon Thompson hasn't done enough, but IMO, he's streaking upward. And there's an argument that your tackles are getting old or whatever but IMO they're both guys you want to keep around while you look for/groom replacements. On the other hand, there are some guys I left off my list: Rey M. Jermaine G. Domata P. Robert Geathers Those guys are easy to let go. Leon Hall doesn't justify his #, especially with the young bucks beneath him. If the decision were to come down to say, JPP or Greg Hardy versus Leon for $ space, I'd jump on one of the DEs. I agree with all of this. I think we over state Marvin Jones ability but I hope I am wrong there and he certainly can't be blamed for not showing up v Indy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Now you're just trolling. Even the biggest idiots on this board will confess that, even if MJ's absence did have a deleterious affect on our sack production, it would be at least the fourth reason down the list. 1) Losing Zimmer 2) Compromised Geno 3) Losing Burfict Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Atkins played in 9 games in 2013. I would say he was slightly compromised for the other 7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-GoBengals- Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Rebuttal Hobson article on how they actually have no money about to drop in response any minute now... never let reality get in the way of a good bitching, eh? we have a pile of youth getting ready to need to get paid. AJ Green Sanu Jones Bernard whitworth andre smith all within 1-2 seasons.. so that would only be an average of 5.5 mil per player to each ALL of that cap space.. not counting the next draft picks, etc... given we will probably walk away from andys deal within the next two seasons.. which would free up 15 mil.. but regardless.. we probably wont sign all of those guys.. but if we dont we have to sign someone to replace them.. even if we snag half of them for an average of 4-5 mil each, thats nearly half the cap room... again not counting the couple mil for the draft picks and any potential free agent signings.. 33 mil doesnt go very far.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 never let reality get in the way of a good bitching, eh? we have a pile of youth getting ready to need to get paid. AJ Green Sanu Jones Bernard whitworth andre smith all within 1-2 seasons.. so that would only be an average of 5.5 mil per player to each ALL of that cap space.. not counting the next draft picks, etc... given we will probably walk away from andys deal within the next two seasons.. which would free up 15 mil.. but regardless.. we probably wont sign all of those guys.. but if we dont we have to sign someone to replace them.. even if we snag half of them for an average of 4-5 mil each, thats nearly half the cap room... again not counting the couple mil for the draft picks and any potential free agent signings.. 33 mil doesnt go very far.. Hog wash. Bengals better figure it out. When the Patriots can rent Revis and only suffer 5 mil dead money the following year if they cut him we aren't matching our AFC rivals effort. That's the reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-GoBengals- Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Hog wash. Bengals better figure it out. When the Patriots can rent Revis and only suffer 5 mil dead money the following year if they cut him we aren't matching our AFC rivals effort. That's the reality. didnt tampa have to pay a bunch of his salary.. we need to find those fucking deals somewhere.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 didnt tampa have to pay a bunch of his salary.. we need to find those fucking deals somewhere.. Scary part is this. Patriots have been in the AFC Championship 4 years in a row. Just won a Super Bowl. Are about 5 over the cap Revis counts 25 mil. If they cut him the will be about 15 under. They work the draft as good as anyone. Have the best ever post season QB. Good luck Bengals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
membengal Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 Go, hobs always has excuses for why they won't spend coin. If marvin isn't changing and dalton isn't changing, mat be they can try something new in free agency... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 never let reality get in the way of a good bitching, eh? we have a pile of youth getting ready to need to get paid. AJ Green Sanu Jones Bernard whitworth andre smith all within 1-2 seasons.. so that would only be an average of 5.5 mil per player to each ALL of that cap space.. not counting the next draft picks, etc... given we will probably walk away from andys deal within the next two seasons.. which would free up 15 mil.. but regardless.. we probably wont sign all of those guys.. but if we dont we have to sign someone to replace them.. even if we snag half of them for an average of 4-5 mil each, thats nearly half the cap room... again not counting the couple mil for the draft picks and any potential free agent signings.. 33 mil doesnt go very far.. Green is already on the cap for over 10 mil. He might get 12-13 mil on a long term deal or can be tagged for about 13 mil. So a 2-3 mil increase from where he already is. Jones won't be expensive given how much time he's missed his first 3 years. Sanu won't be expensive either and might end up fighting for his roster spot. Gio is signed for 2 more years, is a backup to Hill, and plays a position that doesn't earn a lot. Whitworth is getting older so he'll probably get a 2 year extension. Andre is coming off a poor season and not in line for a big raise. Bottom line, the Bengals have plenty of cap space to be aggressive with in free agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlantNGo Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 The Bengals have yet to record 1 playoff victory during the salary cap era. They have most recently suffered 4 consecutive wildcard round defeats. It's fair to question their cap methods when they haven't been able capitalize on other team's supposedly screwing themselves in the future. I believe the boogey man of "cap hell" is a rationalization. The reality that's often played out is there are always factors in cap management that help agressive teams avoid or recover quickly from "cap hell". Cap hell does exist, if the cap is not well-managed. Look at the starting defense for the Atlanta Falcons as one example of a team getting out of cap hell: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/02/16/2015-depth-charts-atlanta-falcons/ The Cowboys are getting pretty close too. They've done many "simple" restructures in the past few years, which give temporary cap relief by converting base salary to signing bonus and further backloads the contract. The typical pattern for teams that don't manage the cap well is a boom-and-bust cycle where several good seasons are followed by one or more really crappy seasons, resulting in a head coach getting fired and a major turnover of the roster while a new coach comes in and rebuilds. The Raiders were in that position when Carson was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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