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1 minute ago, SF2 said:

Marvin's first brilliant move was not playing Carson at all as a rookie. Just arrogant. 1 entire year of development wasted.

It was not wasted at all.  A player does not have to be on the field to develop.

 

But, of course if Carson had started as a rookie you would be squirting and squealing about how Marvin stunted his development by playing him before he was ready.

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7 hours ago, SF2 said:

Marvin's first brilliant move was not playing Carson at all as a rookie. Just arrogant. 1 entire year of development wasted.

This move showed that Marvin didn't care about the fans.  

 

I had to pay Rumpke for an extra year before I could start dumping my trash on Carson's lawn.

 

🗑

 

 

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6 hours ago, High School Harry said:

Have a nice day.

Poor Harry.

 

It is always tough for you to have to deal with a Bengal victory isn't it.

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18 hours ago, SF2 said:

Marvin's first brilliant move was not playing Carson at all as a rookie. Just arrogant. 1 entire year of development wasted.

Agreed.Carson looked like shit the first 5-6 games until the game slowed down for him.He had two monster games after that against the Browns,and the Ravens.I remember thinking if they'd just done this the season before,we'd have made the playoffs in 2004.

 

 

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18 hours ago, fredtoast said:

It was not wasted at all.  A player does not have to be on the field to develop.

 

But, of course if Carson had started as a rookie you would be squirting and squealing about how Marvin stunted his development by playing him before he was ready.

Nonsense, there is no substitute for actual playing time.  Marvin stuck with Kitna because he thought he might actually make the playoffs his first year as coach.  Hindsight is great for this discussion because there is no doubt Carson was a superior QB in every way and it had to be obvious to everyone.

 

The team entered the bye week at 1-4.  At that point Kitna was 9-23 as a Bengal starter. Should have made the change then. 

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1 hour ago, SF2 said:

Nonsense, there is no substitute for actual playing time.  Marvin stuck with Kitna because he thought he might actually make the playoffs his first year as coach.  Hindsight is great for this discussion because there is no doubt Carson was a superior QB in every way and it had to be obvious to everyone.

 

The team entered the bye week at 1-4.  At that point Kitna was 9-23 as a Bengal starter. Should have made the change then. 

How "fondly" I remember being 8-7 going into our last game against the Browns and we knew going in that a win secured us a wildcard...and then Kitna happened. Spontaneous small-hands fumbles, untimely picks, just bad, bad offense that day. Finished 8-8 and out of the playoffs.

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16 hours ago, Sox said:

Agreed.Carson looked like shit the first 5-6 games until the game slowed down for him.

 

 

His very first start he threw for 248 yards and 2 tds with a 105 passer rating.  And that was against the Jets had the #7 defense in the league and won a playoff game.

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14 hours ago, SF2 said:

 Hindsight is great for this discussion because there is no doubt Carson was a superior QB in every way and it had to be obvious to everyone.

 

You have no idea if Carson was better in 2004 because you never saw him play a single snap in 2004.

 

Making up stuff in your head and claiming it is fact is not good for this conversation.

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13 hours ago, fredtoast said:

You have no idea if Carson was better in 2004 because you never saw him play a single snap in 2004.

 

Making up stuff in your head and claiming it is fact is not good for this conversation.

Your right, the coaching staff was having a hard time trying to figure out if the 6-5 230lb Heisman Trophy winning, pro offense set trained, USC record shattering, #1 oveall pick QB was better than the 6-2 pixie handed noodle armed reject from Seattle. Kitna got dumped for Matt Hasselbeck for Christ's sake.

 

I am sure giving Carson the starter's job in 2004 took countless weeks of analysis, debate and trips to a Tarot card reader.

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9 hours ago, SF2 said:

Your right, the coaching staff was having a hard time trying to figure out if the 6-5 230lb Heisman Trophy winning, pro offense set trained, USC record shattering, #1 oveall pick QB was better than the 6-2 pixie handed noodle armed reject from Seattle. Kitna got dumped for Matt Hasselbeck for Christ's sake.

 

I am sure giving Carson the starter's job in 2004 took countless weeks of analysis, debate and trips to a Tarot card reader.

In the '03 season Kitna finished 3rd in the league in passing tds, 4th in comebacks, 5th in passes completed, 6th in game winning drives, 7th in passing yards, and 9th in passer rating.

 

All of those are better than what Palmer did in '04.  All of those are better than almost every rookie QB taken in the last decade.

 

We just barely missed making the playoffs in '03, but we probably would not have been close with Palmer starting.

 

And finally Matt Hasselbeck has went to just as many Pro Bowls as Palmer, made the playoffs twice as often, and won 5 times as many playoff games. 

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On 11/22/2017 at 10:05 AM, fredtoast said:

His very first start he threw for 248 yards and 2 tds with a 105 passer rating.  And that was against the Jets had the #7 defense in the league and won a playoff game.

You're cherry picking your stats.You're making your judgement on a single game,the Jets.How'd he do in his next game against the Dolphins?Here,let me help-53.3 rating.The game after that against the Ravens,a whopping 43.4.The Stealers next-52.1.The Browns-63.2.The Monday Night game against the Broncos-he did ok,didn't lose the game with an 85 rating.Titans-65.4.Game EIGHT-Dallas-94.8,better.Game nine,Redskins-63.7.Game ten Stealers-82.9.Game ELEVEN,the game imho where things really starting slowing down for him,101.4.Game twelve was his monster game against the Ravens on the road where he absolutely torched them in a great comeback-127.1.Game 13,the game where was injured and lost for the last three games,Patriots-110.1.

 

So to summarize his stats with his first game against the Jets being the lone exception were mediocre twice,and freaking terrible the other seven games.His last three games before getting hurt were,101.4,127.1,110.1.Notice a trend there?

 

I'm not disputing the Bengals would have likely finished worse under Palmer in 2003,but all that means is that the Bengals would have a worse record and NOT make the playoffs...just like they failed to do under Kitna.The point I'm trying to make,is that it stands to reason that if the Bengals start Palmer in 2003,we would have have seen 2005 Palmer a season earlier,and most likely have made the playoffs in 2004.

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On 11/23/2017 at 10:05 AM, fredtoast said:

In the '03 season Kitna finished 3rd in the league in passing tds, 4th in comebacks, 5th in passes completed, 6th in game winning drives, 7th in passing yards, and 9th in passer rating.

 

All of those are better than what Palmer did in '04.  All of those are better than almost every rookie QB taken in the last decade.

 

We just barely missed making the playoffs in '03, but we probably would not have been close with Palmer starting.

 

And finally Matt Hasselbeck has went to just as many Pro Bowls as Palmer, made the playoffs twice as often, and won 5 times as many playoff games. 

Palmer was not drafted with the first pick to make Jon Kitna a better QB.  Kitna was terrible here.  Maybe if he had not started the season 1-4 in 2003 we would have made the playoffs. Oh, and shitting the bed against 4-11 Cleveland at home with the playoffs on the line?? Get fucking real.  Marvin has failed here.  Get over it.  

 

Marvin's claim to fame will be that he sucked less than the other guys.

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12 hours ago, SF2 said:

Palmer was not drafted with the first pick to make Jon Kitna a better QB.  Kitna was terrible here.  Maybe if he had not started the season 1-4 in 2003 we would have made the playoffs. Oh, and shitting the bed against 4-11 Cleveland at home with the playoffs on the line?? Get fucking real.  Marvin has failed here.  Get over it.  

 

Marvin was hired to try and win games, not start a draft pick over a better QB.

 

You can say anything you want, but the FACTS are that Kitna was the better QB in 2003 than Palmer.  Kitna was a top 10 QB that year (3rd in tds, 7th in yards, 9th in passer rating).  That was better than Palmer put up in 2004 and Carson would have been much worse in '03 without an entire year of practice.  We almost made the playoffs in '03 with Kitna at QB and based on the stats we would have been much worse with Palmer at QB.

 

It is comical how some fans bitch and squeal about Marvin not playing the best players and then also bitch and squeal when he does play the best player.  But I guess that makes it simple for them.  They don't have to look at any facts.  All they have to do is ask "Did Marvindo it?" Simple answers for simple minds.

 

The fact is that Marvin should be praise for seeing the potential in Kitna and realizing he gave us a much better chance of winning and staying in the playoff hunt than Palmer w0uld have.

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17 hours ago, SF2 said:

Palmer was not drafted with the first pick to make Jon Kitna a better QB.  Kitna was terrible here.  Maybe if he had not started the season 1-4 in 2003 we would have made the playoffs. Oh, and shitting the bed against 4-11 Cleveland at home with the playoffs on the line?? Get fucking real.  Marvin has failed here.  Get over it.  

 

His claim to fame will be that he sucked less than the other guys.

Spot on, and anyone who would defend Marvin, or Marvin playing Kitten Hands over Palmer, has no earthly clue about the game of football and they are Mike Brown apologists who are content with the Bengals being mediocre at best.

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5 hours ago, fredtoast said:

Marvin was hired to try and win games, not start a draft pick over a better QB.

 

You can say anything you want, but the FACTS are that Kitna was the better QB in 2003 than Palmer.  Kitna was a top 10 QB that year (3rd in tds, 7th in yards, 9th in passer rating).  That was better than Palmer put up in 2004 and Carson would have been much worse in '03 without an entire year of practice.  We almost made the playoffs in '03 with Kitna at QB and based on the stats we would have been much worse with Palmer at QB.

 

It is comical how some fans bitch and squeal about Marvin not playing the best players and then also bitch and squeal when he does play the best player.  But I guess that makes it simple for them.  They don't have to look at any facts.  All they have to do is ask "Did Marvindo it?" Simple answers for simple minds.

 

The fact is that Marvin should be praise for seeing the potential in Kitna and realizing he gave us a much better chance of winning and staying in the playoff hunt than Palmer w0uld have.

 

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On 11/23/2017 at 10:29 PM, SF2 said:

Palmer was not drafted with the first pick to make Jon Kitna a better QB.  Kitna was terrible here.  Maybe if he had not started the season 1-4 in 2003 we would have made the playoffs. Oh, and shitting the bed against 4-11 Cleveland at home with the playoffs on the line?? Get fucking real.  Marvin has failed here.  Get over it.  

 

His claim to fame will be that he sucked less than the other guys.

 

14 hours ago, USN Bengal said:

Spot on, and anyone who would defend Marvin, or Marvin playing Kitten Hands over Palmer, has no earthly clue about the game of football and they are Mike Brown apologists who are content with the Bengals being mediocre at best.

The thing I always noticed about Kitna was his stats were decent but it was WHEN he shit the bed.  Maybe not a lot of interceptions or fumbles (spare me the stats) but they happened at the worse, most inopportune times.  You could almost call them from the stands, "here comes the pick".

jmho, of course.

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2 hours ago, High School Harry said:

 

The thing I always noticed about Kitna was his stats were decent but it was WHEN he shit the bed.  Maybe not a lot of interceptions or fumbles (spare me the stats) but they happened at the worse, most inopportune times.  You could almost call them from the stands, "here comes the pick".

jmho, of course.

You mean like being an 8.5 point favorite against the Browns at home, 56 degrees / perfect day for football, and your offense manages 14 points against the 4-11 Browns?  

 

You mean like throwing a pick with 47 seconds left down by  4 to seal the victory for the Browns?

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3 hours ago, SF2 said:

You mean like being an 8.5 point favorite against the Browns at home, 56 degrees / perfect day for football, and your offense manages 14 points against the 4-11 Browns?  

 

You mean like throwing a pick with 47 seconds left down by  4 to seal the victory for the Browns?

For starters :smile:

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On 11/24/2017 at 3:36 PM, USN Bengal said:

Spot on, and anyone who would defend Marvin, or Marvin playing Kitten Hands over Palmer, has no earthly clue about the game of football and they are Mike Brown apologists who are content with the Bengals being mediocre at best.

I am the one who wanted the Bengals to do everything they could to win the most games while you guys wanted them to tank a year and lose more games, yet I am the one "content with the Bengals being mediocre".

 

You people who think it is better to lose more games are the problem.  Not guys like me who want to win as many as possible.

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On 11/25/2017 at 8:46 AM, SF2 said:

You mean like being an 8.5 point favorite against the Browns at home, 56 degrees / perfect day for football, and your offense manages 14 points against the 4-11 Browns?  

 

You mean like throwing a pick with 47 seconds left down by  4 to seal the victory for the Browns?

Wow, SF2 drooling over ONE poor performances from 2003 while erasing anything positive from his memory.  How shocking.:rolleyes:

 

What about these Kitna moments from the same season?

 

We were 6-5 and battling for a playoff spot against the Stealers when Hines ward scored a td to give Pittsburgh a 3 point lead with just 1:05 left in the game.  Kitna responded by driving the Bengals down the field and hitting Matt Schobel  with a game winning 18 yd td pass with just 13 seconds left.

 

We were trailing the playoff bound Seahawks in the fourth quarter until Kitna hit Chad Johnson with a 53 yard game winning td pass.

 

We were trailing the Texans in the fourth quarter and Kitna led us on two long scoring drives for 10 unanswered points and a 34-27 victory.

 

His brilliant game in the 34-26 upset of the division Champion Ravens (16-27, 274 yds, 3 tds, 0 int, 130.8 rating)

 

His 102.7 passer rating in the victory over the undefeated Kansas City Chiefs.

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Palmer didn't play as a rookie in order to protect him, IMO.  This was the worst team in the league heading into that season and there was concern that throwing him to the wolves right off the bat could ruin him long term.  I don't think anyone could say Kitna was anywhere near Palmer in terms of ability.  He was more expendable and the team didn't care if he got beaten up while the rebuilding process went through growing pains.  It turned out that Kitna played decent after a slow start and the team progressed faster than many expected.  Nobody can say how it would have played out if Palmer had been the starter.  Marvin has done plenty of questionable things but I don't agree that this was one of them.

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15 minutes ago, fredtoast said:

Wow, SF2 drooling over ONE poor performances from 2003 while erasing anything positive from his memory.  How shocking.:rolleyes:

 

What about these Kitna moments from the same season?

 

We were 6-5 and battling for a playoff spot against the Stealers when Hines ward scored a td to give Pittsburgh a 3 point lead with just 1:05 left in the game.  Kitna responded by driving the Bengals down the field and hitting Matt Schobel  with a game winning 18 yd td pass with just 13 seconds left.

 

We were trailing the playoff bound Seahawks in the fourth quarter until Kitna hit Chad Johnson with a 53 yard game winning td pass.

 

We were trailing the Texans in the fourth quarter and Kitna led us on two long scoring drives for 10 unanswered points and a 34-27 victory.

 

His brilliant game in the 34-26 upset of the division Champion Ravens (16-27, 274 yds, 3 tds, 0 int, 130.8 rating)

 

His 102.7 passer rating in the victory over the undefeated Kansas City Chiefs.

Did we make to the playoffs FRED?  The one poor performance was the last game of the year, at home, with the playoffs on the line against a 4-11 team FRED. What about the 1-4 start FRED?  Did we forget about fucking 1-4 hole Kitna dug us FRED?  Losing 3 games to teams that went no better than 6-10 on the season.

 

Sorry, KITNA sucked.  Defending him is the ultimate mark of a homer. 

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10 minutes ago, SF2 said:

Did we make to the playoffs FRED?  The one poor performance was the last game of the year, at home, with the playoffs on the line against a 4-11 team FRED. What about the 1-4 start FRED?  Did we forget about fucking 1-4 hole Kitna dug us FRED?  Losing 3 games to teams that went no better than 6-10 on the season.

 

Sorry, KITNA sucked.  Defending him is the ultimate mark of a homer. 

 

Wow, our victory this weekend really does have you worked up in a lather doesn't it?

 

Instead of just losing your head and squirting all over yourself with my name in all caps why don't you try to address the original point of this discussion?

 

In 2003 Kitna was a top 10 QB (3rd in td passes, 7th in yardage, 10th in passer rating).  Due to his excellent play the Bengals were in the playoff hunt until the final week of the season.  The next year Carson Palmer started, and despite having an entire year to absorb the Bengals system he failed to finish in the top ten in any passing category.  If he had started as a rookie he would have most likely been even worse and there was no way the Bengals would have been in the playoff hunt.  So basically Marvin made a decision that won the Bengals more games and kept them in the playoff hunt, but fro some reason I am supposed to shit on him for this.

 

Kitna was a top 10 QB for the Bengals in '03 and led us on a surprise season where we were in contention for sa playoff spot until the final game.  Anyone who bitches and whines about that is just a crybaby who enjoys complaining more than winning.

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