Palestine and Israel

[|Montana Bengal|]

14 minutes ago, claptonrocks said:

We can play the numbers game all you want.

There's a bigger gap between classes than ever before

and it's Biden's clowns that have caused it.

 

Name the Great Accomplishments in his soon to be over term?

Pathetic senile devil and a drunk VP at the helm.

No wonder countries laugh at this administration .

Clueless..

 

 

 

 

Funny that you keep asking Jamie to defend Biden and he has told you a number of times that he doesn't love Biden.

 

My impression is that Jamie just thinks that despite all of Biden's fault's he is still light years better than Trump?  @Jamie_B correct me if I've read your previous comments incorrectly.

[claptonrocks]

Just now, Montana Bengal said:

 

Funny that you keep asking Jamie to defend Biden and he has told you a number of times that he doesn't love Biden.

 

My impression is that Jamie just thinks that despite all of Biden's fault's he is still light years better than Trump?  @Jamie_B correct me if I've read your previous comments incorrectly.

Point taken.

Jaime and I have different views.

We collide..

He's a member in good standing and deservedly so .

 

To let him and others rant on about Trump and conservative opinions rubs me the wrong way that I take offense to.

 

 

[Jamie_B]

1 minute ago, claptonrocks said:

We can play the numbers game all you want.

There's a bigger gap between classes than ever before

and it's Biden's clowns that have caused it.

 

Name the Great Accomplishments in his soon to be over term?

Pathetic senile devil and a drunk VP at the command..

 

 

 

 

 

You moron the gap between the classes has been going on WAY before Biden, it's been something that was going on for DECADES

 

To include under Trump

 

What are the things I like that Biden has done?

Chips Act

Established the first ever gun violence prevention office..... allowing us to even study it 

The Federal Reserve will have new rules on preventing "redlining" in home ownership

Crackdown on Junk Fees and Overdraft charges

Forcing China to open their books for audit

Bipartisan bill to make it harder for Trump or any other President to strong arm states or election officials to overturn the results of an election

Made forming a Union much easier

 

 

And my biggest thing I like is him putting Lina Kahan in charge of the FTC who is going after these businesses on anti-trust cases. That is Teddy Rosevelt type stuff and I love it.

 

What do I hate?

 

His handling of the Isreal/Palestine conflict. 

 

I hated that with Trump and Obama and Bush, Clinton at lest tried, but Bush Sr, and Reagan....going all the way back for decades our policies on Isreal have been wrong headed. Biden is not special in that regard.

[Jamie_B]

7 minutes ago, Montana Bengal said:

 

Funny that you keep asking Jamie to defend Biden and he has told you a number of times that he doesn't love Biden.

 

My impression is that Jamie just thinks that despite all of Biden's fault's he is still light years better than Trump?  @Jamie_B correct me if I've read your previous comments incorrectly.

 

 

Nope that's dead on right.

 

I had ZERO expectations for Biden when he got the job. I expected him to continue business as usual and go back to how things were before Trump, so for me to say I was wrong on that is a surprise. 

 

I defiantly think he's too old and should step aside and I hate how he is handling Ireal, but he has surprised me with him doing ANYTHING I liked or agreed with

[|Montana Bengal|]

3 minutes ago, claptonrocks said:

Point taken.

Jaime and I have different views.

We collide..

He's a member in good standing and deservedly so .

 

To let him and others rant on about Trump and conservative opinions rubs me the wrong way that I take offense to.

 

 

 

Maybe we should all act better than our politicians and have actual conversations.  Fuck....maybe not be shitty to one another.

[claptonrocks]

5 minutes ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

Nope that's dead on right.

 

I had ZERO expectations for Biden when he got the job. I expected him to continue business as usual and go back to how things were before Trump, so for me to say I was wrong on that is a surprise. 

 

I defiantly think he's too old and should step aside and I hate how he is handling Ireal, but he has surprised me with him doing ANYTHING I liked or agreed with

Well said.

I'm sorry for attacking you personally.

 

Your views on society will never coincide with mine though.

Maybe neither of us are entirely right or wrong.

[claptonrocks]

3 minutes ago, Montana Bengal said:

 

Maybe we should all act better than our politicians and have actual conversations.  Fuck....maybe not be shitty to one another.

Agree

[Homer_Rice]

I can't remember which thread it was, so this'll have to do as it is geostrategically oriented. I told T-Dub I would do a little thing about the Ukraine war and never got around to it. Here's a good article as a substitute. Sorry I forgot to get back to you, T-Dub.

 

Who Caused the Ukraine War?

 

And here are a couple of reads regarding the genocide in Gaza:

 

Benjamin Netanyahu clashes with security chiefs on Hamas deal

 

Resistance Axis: a calculated, simultaneous strike on Israel

 

10,000 Israeli Soldiers Killed or Wounded – Report Exposes Crisis among Israeli Soldiers in Gaza

[|Elflocko|]

6 minutes ago, Homer_Rice said:

I can't remember which thread it was, so this'll have to do as it is geostrategically oriented. I told T-Dub I would do a little thing about the Ukraine war and never got around to it. Here's a good article as a substitute. Sorry I forgot to get back to you, T-Dub.

 

Who Caused the Ukraine War?

 

And here are a couple of reads regarding the genocide in Gaza:

 

Benjamin Netanyahu clashes with security chiefs on Hamas deal

 

Resistance Axis: a calculated, simultaneous strike on Israel

 

10,000 Israeli Soldiers Killed or Wounded – Report Exposes Crisis among Israeli Soldiers in Gaza

I looked at that first link and thought “Wonder if that’s Mearsheimer?”. 😆 

 

That’s the article I supply for folks who ask. 

[T-Dub]

2 hours ago, Homer_Rice said:

I can't remember which thread it was, so this'll have to do as it is geostrategically oriented. I told T-Dub I would do a little thing about the Ukraine war and never got around to it. Here's a good article as a substitute. Sorry I forgot to get back to you, T-Dub.

 

Who Caused the Ukraine War?

 

And here are a couple of reads regarding the genocide in Gaza:

 

Benjamin Netanyahu clashes with security chiefs on Hamas deal

 

Resistance Axis: a calculated, simultaneous strike on Israel

 

10,000 Israeli Soldiers Killed or Wounded – Report Exposes Crisis among Israeli Soldiers in Gaza

 

Russia did not invade Ukraine in 2022. Russian began the invasion in 2014 or before, sending special/irregular forces (Putin's "Little Green Men" operating out of uniform) into Donbas and seizing Crimea. Both of these moves were limited in scope and did nothing to dissuade Ukraine from seeking NATO membership - quite the opposite.

 

This also makes no mention of the major gas pipelines in Donbas or the later (probably retaliatory) sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines.  This to me points to goals beyond simply checking NATO expansion.

 

Even if that were the primary aim, how does a bloody invasion marked by deliberate missile strikes on civilian targets convince other countries to give up their goal of joining NATO? Sweden and Finland both applied for membership after the invasion and are now part of the alliance. They would have gladly been accepted at any time but only decided to join in response to Russia. If preventing NATO expansion was truly his goal he has failed miserably.

 

Also I find it odd that he would use Putin's own words as proof of his peaceful intentions, as though he would ever openly admit otherwise. This is a former KGB officer that routinely orders political opponents & detractors killed, even if it means sending assassins into other countries. Trusting anything that he says or writes is naive in the extreme, it would be more reasonable to assume his intentions are exactly the opposite of what he claims.

 

So yeah, NATO membership may have been a catalyst but it wasn't the sole reason and this article reads like so much apologia - "look what you made me do!"  It ignores his schemes in Moldava, Belarus, Hungary and other former Soviet territories. It seems clear to me that his intent is a new Soviet empire so yes, NATO is a threat to that goal. This version of events where he was happily sending Ukraine home-baked cookies in peace and friendship until they approached NATO is not very convincing.

[Homer_Rice]

7 hours ago, Elflocko said:

I looked at that first link and thought “Wonder if that’s Mearsheimer?”. 😆 

 

That’s the article I supply for folks who ask. 

Yep. Mearsheimer is a level-headed dude. So is Gilbert Doctorow. They don't drink the Empire Kool-Aid.

[Homer_Rice]

5 hours ago, T-Dub said:

 

Russia did not invade Ukraine in 2022. Russian began the invasion in 2014 or before, sending special/irregular forces (Putin's "Little Green Men" operating out of uniform) into Donbas and seizing Crimea. Both of these moves were limited in scope and did nothing to dissuade Ukraine from seeking NATO membership - quite the opposite.

 

This also makes no mention of the major gas pipelines in Donbas or the later (probably retaliatory) sabotage of the Nord Stream pipelines.  This to me points to goals beyond simply checking NATO expansion.

 

Even if that were the primary aim, how does a bloody invasion marked by deliberate missile strikes on civilian targets convince other countries to give up their goal of joining NATO? Sweden and Finland both applied for membership after the invasion and are now part of the alliance. They would have gladly been accepted at any time but only decided to join in response to Russia. If preventing NATO expansion was truly his goal he has failed miserably.

 

Also I find it odd that he would use Putin's own words as proof of his peaceful intentions, as though he would ever openly admit otherwise. This is a former KGB officer that routinely orders political opponents & detractors killed, even if it means sending assassins into other countries. Trusting anything that he says or writes is naive in the extreme, it would be more reasonable to assume his intentions are exactly the opposite of what he claims.

 

So yeah, NATO membership may have been a catalyst but it wasn't the sole reason and this article reads like so much apologia - "look what you made me do!"  It ignores his schemes in Moldava, Belarus, Hungary and other former Soviet territories. It seems clear to me that his intent is a new Soviet empire so yes, NATO is a threat to that goal. This version of events where he was happily sending Ukraine home-baked cookies in peace and friendship until they approached NATO is not very convincing.

Man, I like you, but you are so mistaken on so many things here. My suggestion is to keep peeling away the layers of the onion. I can't do that for you.

[T-Dub]

1 hour ago, Homer_Rice said:

Man, I like you, but you are so mistaken on so many things here. My suggestion is to keep peeling away the layers of the onion. I can't do that for you.

 

It's gonna take more than that to convince me Putin only sent in the tanks because NATO. Has he made any overture towards withdrawing if Ukraine doesn't join? 

[Homer_Rice]

Okay... I didn't want to take the time to do this because I'm having so much fun working my project, part of which which includes our first imperialist war against a sovereign nation, Mexico. Just goes to show you that from Polk to the modern neocons, some bloodthirsty fools can dominate foreign policy to America's detriment.

 

Along the lines of "You can lead a horse to water, but....." I'm gonna do a data dump here. May take a few posts. Pay attention to the dates on some of these, as most of them are recent publications, but some pre-date the events since 2022.

 

Start with this sad truth. This morning, some poor bastards are going to wake up in a dirty trench or foxhole, feeling like crap, and not knowing that this will be the last day of their lives. Doesn't really matter if they are Ukrainian or Russian from this perspective. These people are just like you and me, swept up into events beyond their control. And they will be maimed, shredded, blown apart before the day is out. It makes me very sad but it also makes me very angry. Because, "but for the grace of God, there go I."

 

So who does this shit? What's the mindset? The absolute cynicism of this tweet offers hints. First, making old dudes carry the heaviest burden of the war tells us that Ukraine doesn't have the manpower to defend itself in the long run. The cynical part rings so true, too--the analyst proposing this little bit of goodness isn't the one in the trenches. Put him there and he might think twice. Asshole.

 

The average age of a Ukrainian soldier is 43 years old. Good.

 

See also:

800,000 Ukrainian men have gone ‘underground’ – MP

Zelenskyy extends mobilization, martial law by another 90 days in Ukraine

 

[Homer_Rice]

A better place to start is not 2014, but at the end of the Cold War and the reunification of Germany.

 

Baker to Gorbachev, February 1990

 

Just in case someone tells you that this particular idea was never in play.

[Homer_Rice]

So, who are the people who betrayed this idea? As I said before many of them gave us Iraq Afghanistan, and permanent war.

 

Neocons bent on starting another disaster in Ukraine--2021

 

Decades after 9/11, what became of the US’s neoconservatives? --2021

 

Ukraine Is the Latest Neocon Disaster --2022

 

Jennifer Rubin: We Won The Iraq War!-- 2014 The idiocy of this. She has been writing this kind of drudge for a long, long time.

 

Some supplementary material:

The US Empire Isn’t A Government That Runs Nonstop Wars, It’s A Nonstop War That Runs A Government

 

Quote

Until you understand this, nothing the US government or the US war machine does will make sense. You won’t understand why military operations are being waged which don’t seem to benefit the American people in any way, and which if anything actually harm the national security interests of the United States. You won’t understand why US foreign policy remains the same no matter who’s in office, regardless of party or platform. You won’t understand why the US and its allies do crazy things that otherwise make no sense for governments to do, like backing an increasingly unpopular genocide in Gaza, starting a cold war with China, or tempting nuclear armageddon with Russia.

 

Narcissistic Personality Disorder in the USA

Actual U.S. Military Spending Reached $1.537 Trillion in 2022—More than Twice Acknowledged Level: New Estimates Based on U.S. National Accounts

The Military-Industrial Complex Is Killing Us All

[Homer_Rice]

Board keeps logging me out because I'm taking too much time trying to sort this. Gotta get my day rolling soon, so here's a bunch more, less organized. All worth reading.

 

Pimps of war: Neocons who fueled 20 years of carnage in the Middle East are back for more

What the Neocons Got Wrong

The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made

Ukraine-Russia Peace Is as Elusive as Ever. But in 2022 They Were Talking.

Ukraine, Continued Aid, and the Prevailing Logic of Slaughter

 

Normalizing Nazis at Vogue, MSNBC, and “America’s Largest Documentary Festival”

US lifts ban on Neo-Nazi linked Azov Brigade in Ukraine

[Homer_Rice]

Maybe some more later..... Gotta go now.

[claptonrocks]

1 hour ago, Homer_Rice said:

Maybe some more later..... Gotta go now.

I'm sorry I ever doubted you..

You know much more than I on many political topics.

I'm learning a lot from you..

[T-Dub]

On 8/8/2024 at 4:48 AM, Homer_Rice said:

Start with this sad truth. This morning, some poor bastards are going to wake up in a dirty trench or foxhole, feeling like crap, and not knowing that this will be the last day of their lives. Doesn't really matter if they are Ukrainian or Russian from this perspective. These people are just like you and me, swept up into events beyond their control. And they will be maimed, shredded, blown apart before the day is out. It makes me very sad but it also makes me very angry. Because, "but for the grace of God, there go I."

 

 

I should acknowledge this & while I do watch combat footage because I'm curious about the capabilities of these modern weapons & how they're being used, the drone shit in particular is just awful.  Some poor bastards sleeping in said trench when what is basically an OTS fancy toy helicopter drops some rigged-up Cold War-era grenade or mortar shell on them.  Interesting how this form of SIGINT/ECM has come to dictate combat on the individual grunt level.  I did watch some footage of a squad blind-firing with the help of a local drone operator yelling instructions. Crazy shit.  Aside from the war crimes against civilians in some places I figure the average Russian soldier is just in a world of shit.  The reliance on human wave attacks against HIMARs etc is insane. That manpower advantage you mention doesn't seem to amount to much on the ground, at least not yet.  Numbers aside the Russians seem caught on the wrong end of the modernization of Ukraine's armed forces.

 

Also the Azovs are 100% neo-nazi white supremacists, I watched training footage of theirs back in 2015-16 where they weren't at all trying to hide it.  What a weird thing to be in a country that is almost entirely white & Christian.  Even in Crimea the Muslim population is something like 1/5th at most from what I've read.

 

As for questions of ultimate responsibility & guilt, the US economy runs on this shit so I'm not disputing we had no problem tipping the scales towards more war.  I'll dig into the rest of this, thanks for the links.

 

 

 

 

[claptonrocks]

Israel and Iran about to go full bore at each other.

 

Blinking has no answers.

 

Iran wants annilation of them.

Israel will have none of it.

 

Very tense and worrisome 

[T-Dub]

1 hour ago, claptonrocks said:

Israel and Iran about to go full bore at each other.

 

Blinking has no answers.

 

Iran wants annilation of them.

Israel will have none of it.

 

Very tense and worrisome 

 

This has been the status quo for decades.  Iran launched something like 300 missiles/drones at one time back in April, most of them were shot down & the rest did minor damage, killing no one.  They can not hold their own against Israel in a conventional fight.  All they've accomplished is lending credence to Israeli claims of self defense while they bomb the shit out of refugee camps.  It's a propaganda victory for them, as evidenced by you worrying about it.

[T-Dub]

We did it everyone! We saved Gaza!

 

[Homer_Rice]

5 hours ago, T-Dub said:

We did it everyone! We saved Gaza!

Such an immature, privileged thing to say. These kids might have something to say about your stone-hearted bullshit...if they could.

[T-Dub]

30 minutes ago, Homer_Rice said:

Such an immature, privileged thing to say. These kids might have something to say about your stone-hearted bullshit...if they could.

 

I would call refusing to vote because of this (very real & disturbing) issue - one that will not be improved at all by this decision - while ignoring the immeasurable harm that will be caused by that decision to so many other people - nothing but privileged.

 

I would call using photos of dead children to make your point stone-hearted bullshit. 

 

I can't seem to get my head around how ~20M voters decided sitting this one out would send any message other than a shocking level of apathy.