-GoBengals- Posted October 28 Report Posted October 28 Oh, but unfortunately for the "sad sack" community i bring this topic from a place of reason, logic and reality. So lets talk about coaches, their jobs, how the season has gone, whats gone wrong, whats gone right, and what is a reasonable process going forward. Here are a few truths that it seems most fanbases arent familiar with. Coaches jobs: HC - Take whats given to you, take your staff you hired, and coordinate the best plan of action with the personnel you have. Level of responsibility AND accountability of player talent is based on what level of involvement they have in drafting and signing those players, none of us know what that level is within any team, and certainly no one here knows what that level is within the Bengals, especially since most of you think Mike Brown is involved in anything what so ever for the last decade, so lets not pretend we do. DC & OC - Gameplan with HC approval, what the best schemes and sets to run based on the players you have and the data you have on the upcoming opponent. If the plan is unsuccessful, its the HC and front office job to determine if that plan was bad or if the players executing it just werent good enough to succeed in the plan. Position Coaches - Take the gameplan, and teach the details of it in theory, scheme and skillset detail vs the expected opposing team tendencies to they are prepared to the best of their ability each week, get the reps in the week, the walkthrough details locked in, biggest roles in meetings, etc. Accountability based on if thier bosses think the output is above, equal or below the ability of those players. Example: its not franks fault Volson sucks, and he isnt going to be held accountable as such, but turn and look at Cappa, his pass blocking as gone down hill all season long, is he hurt and we dont know? did he lose a step turning 30 this year? those details are what matters to those above Frank to determine if Cappas performance is franks fault, Cappas fault, etc. Now lets talk about accountability. Everyone is so so so quick to point fingers and want to fire someone, and i read in another thread, that the nepotism and blah blah blah is at fault and no one is ever held accountable. This isnt true, What the Bengals do in the front office, while there are possibly some disadvantages(ill go over shortly) there are some HUGE advantages. The #1 reason HC's get fired is because GM's are scared of getting fired, so when that GM drafts a QB they like who sucks, and it doesnt work out, they fire the HC for not being a magician and making a back pick pan out. 90% of firings across the board in the NFL are just fodder buying someone above them 1-2 more years in their job, blaming someone below them for shortcomings. The Bengals dont do that, when they see someone come up short or feel they could be better in an area instead of firing and crossing your fingers the new guy doesnt fix that problem but have a new problem, theyll add a staff member, Marvin and Taylor have and had assistant head coaches both with other roles and some just special assistants to the head coach, i forget the name of the guy Marvin had, i thought he would be the successor to Marv, etc. Why do you think you see so many coaches get fired, get hired somewhere else and then succeed? they just magically got good all the sudden? So all that being said, lets break down the Bengals season, and lets see where accountability should be held, and what coaches should be on the hot seat for each game individually. To be clear, "so and so should be fired because they KEEP getting off to slow starts" is fucking stupid. Its lazy, its just word babble for those too lazy to look at the realities of pro sports. Only the shittiest owners would be so blind as to process cause and effect that way. Youre gonna fire someone because joe was hurt 2-3 starts to seasons? gtfo. Week 1: Gameplan fucked but Jamarr and Tee situations, Jamarr held team hostage until the morning of, and Tee went down after the Gameplan, reps and walkthrough had been completed. Then Mike G TD overturned (apparently the NFL felt it should ahve stood) that being the case, we win that game, even with the fucked gameplan, So who are you firing? he defense gave up 16 points, the offense was fucked over by a Diva and an injury, and STILL should have won. Whose getting fired for this exactly? Week 2: KC, a game you were projected to lose, the Ravens just lost there, they are currently undefeated. Offense was fine, defense did decent, a game of inches or calls, the understandable 50/50 PI call, but the usual no call on holding on the play as Trey was getting chocked out like the WWE as Mahomes scrambled, but you lose by a last second field goal to the best team in the NFL. Who is getting fired for this? Whose on the hot seat for this game for some reason? Tee was out, and with just the week to prepare without him, you scored enough to be winning as the seconds ticked off the clock. Week 3: Here is where the wheels fell off on the DL, Hubard still hurt, So many DT's out that we signed a guy from his couch, Murphy was out hurt still, so aside from Trey the pass rush was fucked, and the leading candidate for rookie of the year goes off and is able to outscore the offense, who was phenominal, scoring 33 points. So whose fired? Taylors fired for the team scoring 33 points and defense missing 5 guys and a hobbled edge in hubbard not performing well? Lou is fired because Cam started shitting himself and appears to not be a #1 corner candidate as a second round pick? How does CTB and Hill and others perform in there is a pass rush? but you want someone fired for this? What dumbass front office makes a decision like that? "oh you didnt perform amazing against the #3 offense in the entire NFL with half your defense wrecked? Ttoal nonsense. Week 4: Panthers - you won dispite the defense being a shit show of injured, returning from injury, against a top run game at the time in the nfl, so no ones getting fired. You won, no ones on any hot seat. Week 5: Ravens, you scored 38 motherfucking points. The offense and Taylor are obviously not to be discussed, The Ravens have the #2 offense in the entire NFL, you managed to hold Henry to 41 yards in regulation, and without a botched snap/hold you win in OT against one of the best teams in the league. DB's got roasted, i think its safe to say there wasnt exactly a pile of consistent deep talent in that group, Bell seems to have aged 5 years in the last 2 years, but also without a better pass rush, its tough to cover forever, and lets be clear, Lamar is a menace scrambling around, and making wild ass plays, and he is doing it to everyone, which is why they AVERAGE 30+ points per game. With the state of the defenses health )lost Dax during this game too) im not sure you as a reasonable adult in an nfl front office, are furious the defense gave up 11 more points in an OT game, that you should ahve walked out winners of either way. Week 6: You win by 2 scores, Defense held an NFL offense to 7 points, in their home, offense was disrupted by the front of the giants, who did pretty well in that regard all season. No one on the hot seat or getting fired after a road win, no matter what. Week 7: Browns, Division win on the road, hold another team under 15 points on the road having to face 3 differnt QB's and a defense thats very very talented, no ones on any hot seat after this feel good, monkey off our back, win in cleveland. Week 8: Eagles - Lack of pressure on full display, DB's cant lock them down with Hurtz having all day, got diced up, they are a top 10 scoring offense with the best Back in the league, a top paid QB/WR/WR trio then add the RB in the league. CTB got hurt early, fell often and limped around between plays, its pretty clear CTB isnt a #1 corner, he was a end o the second round pick, it was a grand slam if he was gona be a solid #1, he is a #2 or #3 pedigree, in the #1 slot, we gonna fire lou becuase he doesnt have the talent in the secondary to keep up with top 2,3,10 offenses in the nfl? we gonna fire zach for it? we firing lou because the picks he was given for pass rush arent getting pressure? so we think if Myles murphy was on the browns he would be a great pass rusher? the DT's he was given are playing well when the crew is healthy in there. we firing someone because Barkley is the best running back in the sport right now? who we firing for the defensive woes against top offenses? clear simple question: Do you think the front office, looks at the players we have on defense, and thinks "man with some other coach, CTB, Murphy, Hubbard, Bell, Stone, would be a top defense and would be locking down all of these offensive powerhouses"? the rational answer is no, no one with any sense would think that, should they perform better? youd hope, but it hasnt been a very clean run so far, with the #2 CB who was coming along nicely from switching positions is done for the year, throwing in guys to start who should only be getting rest reps and teams reps. now SURE, next man up and all that, if the browns torched us in the air, that would be a problem ,but they are clamping the bad offenses as they should, doing ok in the middle ground, and getting beat up by the top offenses in the league. So what mental gymnastics would the front office be doing, to come to the conclusion of firing one of these coaches? which one of you think the offense has great protection, top tier RB's, and a healthy consistent group of WR's that the offense should be well rounded and top notch no matter who they face? Which one of you thinks the defensive roster is top notch from top to bottom, and should be locking down offenses no matter who they are and winning games like the steel curtain? you have a mid range group of talent on defense, and they are performing at worst, at the mid range level, why would someone get fired for that? what fucking DC or HC is taking that roster on defense, and making them. a top tier defense? so why the hell would anyone be on a hot seat to get fired? with all those shit going down, youre 2.5 games out of first place in the division with 2 games against the first place team left, and youre in the 9 seed, 2 spots out of the playoffs, 1.5 games out of the 7 seed, with a game against that 7 seed in 3 weeks. so if smith was out for the Eagles theyd have scored 37 points? he had 85 yards and a TD, so if he was removed friday night, theyd of had no problems on offense? cause that happened to our offense. and i think higgins is better than smith. 2 Quote
T-Dub Posted October 28 Report Posted October 28 You're right, it's no one's fault and we are wrong to think anything should change. 100% bad luck. 🙄 3 6 Quote
Le Tigre Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 I gave an upvote…because that is one hell of a time-consuming/logical argument. 1 Quote
Catfish Bob Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 The Bengals are loyal af to their coaches. Won't be any big changes anytime soon. I'm sure that the atmosphere in the Bengals building is much more optimistic than on here. lol They're going to have to tank the remainder of this season and all of next season before they will give up on ZT. He needs seven wins a season to keep that job. Plain and simple. If you can win at least seven games per season Mike Brown will fox with ya. 1 Quote
Randle P McMurphy Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 6 hours ago, T-Dub said: You're right, it's no one's fault and we are wrong to think anything should change. 100% bad luck. 🙄 lol! Consider the source is coming from someone who had a couple sets of season tickets taken away, had to call and complain about it to get them back so he could fly in from the Denver area to watch a team playing a last place schedule go 0-4 at home but we're the one's part of the "sad sack," community!? So what's the solution when the HC you hire would be a QB coach at best or a mediocre OC on the other 31 teams in the league? Give him a hug, a pat on the back and a reach around? 3 Quote
Le Tigre Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 32 minutes ago, Randle P McMurphy said: lol! Consider the source is coming from someone who had a couple sets of season tickets taken away, had to call and complain about it to get them back so he could fly in from the Denver area to watch a team playing a last place schedule go 0-4 at home but we're the one's part of the "sad sack," community!? 1 Quote
T-Dub Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 3 hours ago, Le Tigre said: I gave an upvote…because that is one hell of a time-consuming/logical argument. Reading between the lines I think he's saying they should fire Duke Tobin instead? I don't think Troy Blackburn is VP because of his extensive football acumen either, having worked his way up from.. er.. Fiancé? 5 Quote
sois Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 The Bengals project picks never get better. Who's fault is that? Quote
LostInDaJungle Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 NFL games are usually razor thin margins... The good coaches win the close ones. You can shoulda this or that... There's no asterix in the record book. In all of those situations, Zac was a better play call or two away from winning the game as well. So... A bit of a double edged sword on that one. I mean.. Really, you just "bad luck" your way to 0-4 at home? At what point does the trend line point to a verifiable observation? How many "slow starts" can we blame on bad luck or this or that? How many years can we sign FA's on the OL... Fairly big ones... and still have a running game that sucks and blame Mike and Katie? Are you looking at all of the secondary miscommunication on basic packages and glad these guys sat out the entire preseason? It's Mike and Katie's fault they signed Stone and Bell to help? Do the busts on the D-Line point to bad scouting or bad coaching? People seemed pretty high on guys like Murphy and Ossai when we drafted them... Did we fail to develop these guys, or was Duke supposed to know something no one else knew? We all know this is once again on our conservative FO... But people are wrong for asking for change where it can be made?? Can you even argue that Zac has made the most of the talent he has been given? As someone who watches and gets off one the X's and O's... I've broken it down elsewhere this week. Success or failure - I have never cared for Zac's play calling. This is not a knee jerk reaction. For as bad as the defense has been, I actually feel slightly better about Lou's scheme. What's worse, I no longer trust Taylor's judgement. And that means he's not someone I trust as a leader. I don't get the impression the players are exactly ready to charge over that hill for him anymore either. Time for a new voice. 3 Quote
Randle P McMurphy Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 12 hours ago, Le Tigre said: Fans that will continually throw cash at ownership for season tickets/seat licenses/team paraphernalia knowing damn well ahead of time that ownership isn't going to do a single thing to try improve or settle for mediocrity is why that ownership continues to operate the way they do. They're enablers! Apparently if you disagree with them, then you're a "sad sack". The Bengals are playing a LAST PLACE schedule with probably the 2nd best QB in the league and are 3-5 overall and 0-4 AT HOME yet doing absolutely NOTHING to try to improve the team! They're coasting/settling with a mediocre team while a team like the Chiefs, who have won the last 2 SB's and are the only undefeated team in the league, are making moves left and right to try to continually improve! Last year we finished 9-8 with our backup QB so you'd think with Burrow playing, we'd show at least a little improvement but we'd have to finish the season 6-3 just to match last season's record and I have little to zero faith in them even doing that but at least I'm not financially invested in this mess. 2 3 Quote
sois Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 12 hours ago, LostInDaJungle said: What's worse, I no longer trust Taylor's judgement. And that means he's not someone I trust as a leader. I don't get the impression the players are exactly ready to charge over that hill for him anymore either. Time for a new voice. I agree with everything you said except this. The players survey says he's pretty beloved. I don't know if that flips 180 due to this start, but he seems to be a good leader. Also, I like Lou but let's look at his development ability: 2019: Pratt, 3rd rounder, pretty average Renel Wren, 4th rounder, probly was crappy to begin with Deshaun Davis, 6th, crappy Jordan Brown, 6th, crappy BW Webb and Kerry Wynn, crap FA signings 2020: Logan Wilson, 3rd, average with flashes of glory David Gaither, 4th, kinda crappy, servicable JAG Khalid Kareem, 5th, never heard of him, garbage Markus Bailey, 7th, I think he plays ST, but crappy Signed DJ Reader (expensive though) Vonn Bell was a good deal, Trae Waynes was a waste of money, a bunch of scrubs 2021: Ossai, 3rd, minor Cam Sample, 4th, crap Tyler Shelvin, 5th, sux Wyatt Huber, 7th, sucky also Trey, Chido, Hilton, Apple, awesome FA signings. Some crappy ones, but this FA class gets an A, who gets credit for these FA classes? Duke or Lou? 2022: Dax, 1st, they've kinda ruined him by moving him around so much, I dunno CTB, 2nd, was looking good, kinda downstatting now Zach Carter, 3rd, sux Tycen Adnerson, 5th, i don't even know who this is Jeff Gunter ,7th, crap 0 FA signings 2023: Myles Murphy, 1st, nothing yet from him DJ Turner, 2nd, looks good Jordan Battle, 3rd, I still think he can make it, just gotta get him on the field DJ Ivey, 7th, crappy Nick Scott, Sidney Jones, Terel Basham were the FAs. Total scrubs 2024: Kris Jenkins, 2nd, not giving us too much yet Mckinley, 3rd, for as busted up as the DL is, he seems invisible or hurt i dunno Josh Newton, 5th, he's a 5th round rookie Cedric Johnson, 6th, crap D. Anthony, 7th, crap Stone, Rankins, Bell, pretty mediocre FA No stars, no impact players, just a bunch of OK guys so far. 2021 FA class was A+ 2022 and 2023 draft I still believe in kinda (not Carter and Myles though). Who's fault is it that these dudes aren't glorious? Quote
Jamie_B Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 Our linebackers are not average, that's crazy talk. They are top 6 in tackles https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/tackles/2024/reg/all/defensivecombinetackles/desc Quote
LostInDaJungle Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 1 minute ago, sois said: I agree with everything you said except this. The players survey says he's pretty beloved. They didn't play that second half like they wanted to save Zac's job. I'm taking the whole team camping with me since they can fold up the tents so fast. And NOBODY loved Belichick. But they knew that if they followed him, he'd lead them to the promised land. There's a difference. Tom Brady was a Class A dick. Guys were willing to charge over that hill for him. I mean, why not love a coach who doesn't make you play preseason games? Who doesn't say a peep or bench you when you decide to hold out a day before the opening game. I'm sure Zac is a really nice guy. Belichick probably would have benched Chase just to make a point. What a dick. I love my buddy Mone... But I'm not going to quit my job and go chase a dream with him. He's a sweet dude, but he's not going to make me a billionaire. Quote
sois Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 1 minute ago, Jamie_B said: Our linebackers are not average, that's crazy talk. They are top 6 in tackles https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/tackles/2024/reg/all/defensivecombinetackles/desc Sweeping up after crappy DL doesn't mean awesome. 1 1 Quote
LostInDaJungle Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 Just now, Jamie_B said: Our linebackers are not average, that's crazy talk. They are top 6 in tackles https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/tackles/2024/reg/all/defensivecombinetackles/desc Cam Sample also wasn't crap... He's just a 3-4 DE in a 4-3 system. But he's been a key piece of the rotation, and you can't ask much more from a 4th rounder. Sucks that he's injured this year. I'd even be willing to settle on average... But crap?? 1 Quote
sois Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 Just now, LostInDaJungle said: Cam Sample also wasn't crap... He's just a 3-4 DE in a 4-3 system. But he's been a key piece of the rotation, and you can't ask much more from a 4th rounder. Sucks that he's injured this year. I'd even be willing to settle on average... But crap?? Figure they would have learned not to do that after Justin Smith. Get guys who fit your scheme! 1 Quote
Jamie_B Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 10 minutes ago, sois said: Sweeping up after crappy DL doesn't mean awesome. This is not a thing. Quote
Jamie_B Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 8 minutes ago, LostInDaJungle said: Cam Sample also wasn't crap... He's just a 3-4 DE in a 4-3 system. But he's been a key piece of the rotation, and you can't ask much more from a 4th rounder. Sucks that he's injured this year. I'd even be willing to settle on average... But crap?? Average is what I would call him as well. 1 Quote
LostInDaJungle Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 7 minutes ago, Jamie_B said: Our linebackers are not average, that's crazy talk. They are top 6 in tackles https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/tackles/2024/reg/all/defensivecombinetackles/desc The Fantasy sites have Logan at the #5 LB, and Pratt at #7. It does undermine the rest of the argument. It also doesn't answer the question... Were these bad picks, or did we fail to develop them? Is the FO not providing the coaches with talent, or is the coaching staff failing to develop that talent? Was Murphy a reach? Was everyone wrong about him? What was Duke Tobin supposed to know that Mel Kiper didn't? 1 Quote
Jamie_B Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 Just now, LostInDaJungle said: The Fantasy sites have Logan at the #5 LB, and Pratt at #7. It does undermine the rest of the argument. It also doesn't answer the question... Were these bad picks, or did we fail to develop them? Is the FO not providing the coaches with talent, or is the coaching staff failing to develop that talent? Was Murphy a reach? Was everyone wrong about him? What was Duke Tobin supposed to know that Mel Kiper didn't? Oh I am all for talking about how bad we are drafting, but our linebackers are not bad, that's crazy talk. Quote
T-Dub Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 2 hours ago, Jamie_B said: This is not a thing. DL keeping the LB's clean to make tackles is exactly how it's supposed to work. More often they're getting knocked back and end up in the way. 1 Quote
Le Tigre Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 7 hours ago, Randle P McMurphy said: Apparently if you disagree with them, then you're a "sad sack" I must have misunderstood. I thought this was in reference to Go? 1 Quote
sois Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 20 minutes ago, T-Dub said: DL keeping the LB's clean to make tackles is exactly how it's supposed to work. More often they're getting knocked back and end up in the way. I like LB to be like LT and Derrick Thomas, not barely guys Quote
T-Dub Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 14 minutes ago, sois said: I like LB to be like LT and Derrick Thomas, not barely guys 3-4 OLBs that both lined up like DE's a lot, if I'm not mistaken? We have what are effectively nickel LB's, and good ones. Different era, different jobs in different schemes. Think the issue there is we've got Hendrickson getting after the QB and, as you say, a bunch of "guys". I've been a fan of Hubbard but he's never been a world-beater and may just be washed at this point. He's not going to produce without an inside rush. Quote
Jamie_B Posted October 29 Report Posted October 29 33 minutes ago, T-Dub said: 3-4 OLBs that both lined up like DE's a lot, if I'm not mistaken? We have what are effectively nickel LB's, and good ones. Different era, different jobs in different schemes. Think the issue there is we've got Hendrickson getting after the QB and, as you say, a bunch of "guys". I've been a fan of Hubbard but he's never been a world-beater and may just be washed at this point. He's not going to produce without an inside rush. This is where Rankins has been such a disappointment. I like Sam as well, but I agree he may be washed. It also isn't helping that Murphy isn't doing much. We probably need to get another 3 Tech and DE in the draft or FA, but Dline there isn't anyone screaming out to me in FA. I think it's a better CB year in FA. So I'm leaning toward draft. 1 Quote
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