The NFL's TE revolution

[bengaled]

i enjoyed this well written article and you'd have to be blind to not see how it applies to our (carson's) offensive woes. once again, we've been slow to adapt to the evolution of the game by the rest of the league. no surprise there.


[url="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AottbE9219vqFF7wka_vyucZc9AF?slug=ap-tightend-revolution&prov=ap&type=lgns"]http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Aott...p&type=lgns[/url]

[LudwigVan Kubrick]

I hear a rumble in the distance.

The march of the "our offense doesn't need a pass catching TE" proclaimers will soon begin.

[|High School Harry|]

[quote name='bengaled' post='613889' date='Dec 26 2007, 09:00 AM']i enjoyed this well written article and you'd have to be blind to not see how it applies to our (carson's) offensive woes. once again, we've been slow to adapt to the evolution of the game by the rest of the league. no surprise there.


[url="http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=AottbE9219vqFF7wka_vyucZc9AF?slug=ap-tightend-revolution&prov=ap&type=lgns"]http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;_ylt=Aott...p&type=lgns[/url][/quote]

What I find the absolute most frustrating is what you so correctly call the "evolution of the game" at the tight end
position was actually started by the Bengals and Paul Brown when he drafted Bob Trumpy out of a Thom McCann
shoe store in Utah and made him into a pass catching threat out of the tight end position. [b]Bring back the
flea flicker to the tight end streaking down the sideline wide open![/b] Further evolved with guys like Dan Ross
(Super Bowl record for most receptions [b]and a tight end![/b]) and Rodney Holman.
And somewhere, some now... we freakin' went away from it and [b]lost[/b] it.
Makes absolutely no sense.
Unless... we really do have to use our tight end "like another tackle" to pick up some slack from the rest
of the offensive line...

[oldschooler]

I`ve been begging for a TE that can block and catch, for the past few years now.
I wanted Marcedes Lewis in '06. And I was hoping for Kevin Boss in the last draft.
Obviously, neither happened.

Anyway, since the year 2000, the Bengals have drafted 2 TEs total.
Sean Brewer (2001 round 3) and Matt Schobel (2002 round 3).

[bengaled]

[quote name='High School Harry' post='613892' date='Dec 26 2007, 10:19 AM']What I find the absolute most frustrating is what you so correctly call the "evolution of the game" at the tight end
position was actually started by the Bengals and Paul Brown when he drafted Bob Trumpy out of a Thom McCann
shoe store in Utah and made him into a pass catching threat out of the tight end position. [b]Bring back the
flea flicker to the tight end streaking down the sideline wide open![/b] Further evolved with guys like Dan Ross
(Super Bowl record for most receptions [b]and a tight end![/b]) and Rodney Holman.
And somewhere, some now... we freakin' went away from it and [b]lost[/b] it.
Makes absolutely no sense.
Unless... we really do have to use our tight end "like another tackle" to pick up some slack from the rest
of the offensive line...[/quote]

i feel your pain. the old man knew the value of the position. sadly, he's no longer around. what we're left with....ah, nevermind. no sense going there.

[cwing]

I will not argue the point as I too would like a pass catching TE. However, in a 3 base receiver offense the receiver in the slot and a pass catching threat out of the backfield replace the TE. The design of our offense results in Tj and a RB to receive those TE balls. CPerry/Irons/Watson/Triple D are potentially those RB.

Basically it does not matter whom is catching the ball, only that the ball is being caught and in all the spots on the field to extend the defense. We are not utlizing our RB's well enough in the passing game, therefore we are not attacking the middle as we should.

This offense needs either a pass catching TE or that RB that can line up as a wide out or catch passes in the middle of the field while lined up in the backfield. I'd settle for either one.

[Jamie_B]

Im soooo on board for a TE, it would solve so many of the short pass redzone issues that happen when your RBs go down, and gives another option in that game too.

I will diverge from the same old "bengals never try" absurdities and say Anthony Fasino and Daniel Graham. But if you want to go on believing that same tripe go ahead.

[ccartman2]

[quote name='cwing' post='613924' date='Dec 26 2007, 10:28 AM']I will not argue the point as I too would like a pass catching TE. However, in a 3 base receiver offense the receiver in the slot and a pass catching threat out of the backfield replace the TE. The design of our offense results in Tj and a RB to receive those TE balls. CPerry/Irons/Watson/Triple D are potentially those RB.

Basically it does not matter whom is catching the ball, only that the ball is being caught and in all the spots on the field to extend the defense. We are not utlizing our RB's well enough in the passing game, therefore we are not attacking the middle as we should.

This offense needs either a pass catching TE or that RB that can line up as a wide out or catch passes in the middle of the field while lined up in the backfield. I'd settle for either one.[/quote]

Actually though, they don't fit the mold of a tight-end. What makes a good TE so effective is they are so hard to cover. A WR/RB can fill the void in terms of balls their way but they don't present the match-up problems a TE does.

[|ArmyBengal|]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='613901' date='Dec 26 2007, 09:37 AM']I`ve been begging for a TE that can block and catch, for the past few years now.
I wanted Marcedes Lewis in '06. And I was hoping for Kevin Boss in the last draft.
Obviously, neither happened.

Anyway, since the year 2000, the Bengals have drafted 2 TEs total.
Sean Brewer (2001 round 3) and Matt Schobel (2002 round 3).[/quote]

Brew hasn't made a squad since '05, if my quick googling is correct.

from NFL players site -- TE 89 Schobel, Matt REC 10 YDS 100 AVG 10.0 TDS 1 Philadelphia Eagles

Hope we can do a little better than that this year. Given any compensatory 3d picks, maybe time to try again. Haven't done any draft homework, any good looking 3d/4th round TEs we'd be interested in?

[CintiNC]

[quote name='cwing' post='613924' date='Dec 26 2007, 10:28 AM']I will not argue the point as I too would like a pass catching TE. However, in a 3 base receiver offense the receiver in the slot and a pass catching threat out of the backfield replace the TE. The design of our offense results in Tj and a RB to receive those TE balls. CPerry/Irons/Watson/Triple D are potentially those RB.

Basically it does not matter whom is catching the ball, [b]only that the ball is being caught and in all the spots on the field [/b]to extend the defense. We are not utlizing our RB's well enough in the passing game, therefore we are not attacking the middle as we should.

This offense needs either a [b]pass catching TE or that RB that can line up as a wide out or catch passes in the middle [/b]of the field while lined up in the backfield. I'd settle for either one.[/quote]

My first post got a little out of hand re: Watson as "our new tight end". However, this is really what I meant. In the absence of a true tight end (size, mobility, speed, catch, block etc.), we should pick our best option on the team and throw and catch to the middle.

[claptonrocks]

[quote name='LudwigVan Kubrick' post='613891' date='Dec 26 2007, 09:04 AM']I hear a rumble in the distance.

The march of the "our offense doesn't need a pass catching TE" proclaimers will soon begin.[/quote]
...no shit.....
didnt the team have alot of interest in Anthony Fassano ? Cowboys beat them to him and he plays behind Jason Witten now..
I suppose there's allways interest in a good one if they can fill their critical needs first...

[claptonrocks]

[quote name='High School Harry' post='613892' date='Dec 26 2007, 09:19 AM']What I find the absolute most frustrating is what you so correctly call the "evolution of the game" at the tight end
position was actually started by the Bengals and Paul Brown when he drafted Bob Trumpy out of a Thom McCann
shoe store in Utah and made him into a pass catching threat out of the tight end position. [b]Bring back the
flea flicker to the tight end streaking down the sideline wide open![/b] Further evolved with guys like Dan Ross
(Super Bowl record for most receptions [b]and a tight end![/b]) and Rodney Holman.
And somewhere, some now... we freakin' went away from it and [b]lost[/b] it.
Makes absolutely no sense.
Unless... we really do have to use our tight end "like another tackle" to pick up some slack from the rest
of the offensive line...[/quote]

actually I think the Bears and Colts started the whole movement years ago with Mike Ditka and John Mackey...no?

[JBandJoeyV]

sign dallas clark?

[cwing]

[quote name='ccartman2' post='613935' date='Dec 26 2007, 10:45 AM']Actually though, they don't fit the mold of a tight-end. What makes a good TE so effective is they are so hard to cover. A WR/RB can fill the void in terms of balls their way but they don't present the match-up problems a TE does.[/quote]

You can't be serious?

Chris Perry in coverage against a Lber or a safety is not a match up problem? TJ going one on one against a Lber or safety is not a match up problem. If and when Henry gets his act together this is exactly what will happen. See 2005!!!

This is really very simple ------------ it is not whom is catching the ball and what position they line up in. It is that all areas of the field are attacked. TE's typically attack the middle and as long as the slot receiver, RB, TE or someone effectively attacks that area -------------- IT DOES NOT MATTER what position they line up in.

Again ----------- I love a TE. I grew up watching Dan Ross, Rodney Holoman, Kellen Winslow. Truely great players. Having a TE as an option is a sound system to run but it does not mean there are no other systems out there just as productive.

[bengaled]

[quote name='cwing' post='614067' date='Dec 26 2007, 07:00 PM']You can't be serious?

Chris Perry in coverage against a Lber or a safety is not a match up problem? TJ going one on one against a Lber or safety is not a match up problem. If and when Henry gets his act together this is exactly what will happen. See 2005!!!

This is really very simple ------------ it is not whom is catching the ball and what position they line up in. It is that all areas of the field are attacked. TE's typically attack the middle and as long as the slot receiver, RB, TE or someone effectively attacks that area -------------- IT DOES NOT MATTER what position they line up in.

Again ----------- I love a TE. I grew up watching Dan Ross, Rodney Holoman, Kellen Winslow. Truely great players. Having a TE as an option is a sound system to run but it does not mean there are no other systems out there just as productive.[/quote]

fine, support your argument and name one.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengaled' post='614076' date='Dec 26 2007, 06:18 PM']fine, support your argument and name one.[/quote]


well, New England this year for one. Yes, they use a TE, but they could get by without one considering their own weapons. Welker covers the middle of the field fine, and you'll see Moss and Stallworth go over the middle every now and then too. Take away Watson's stats, and Brady has still thrown 42 TD's this year.


I'm a fan of the TE too, but cwing has a point. Its more about the matchup problems and covering all areas of the field then actually having a specific player called a TE and lining up at a certain position.

[spicoli22]

There's definitely a need for one...not at the expense at missing out on a good defensive player though. Although if they can get some extra picks somehow...Martin Rucker would be a nice pick....especially if they could trade down a couple of spots.

[claptonrocks]

[quote name='bengaled' post='614076' date='Dec 26 2007, 06:18 PM']fine, support your argument and name one.[/quote]

Its getting interesting now... backed him up a bit did we?
I understand his reasoning just dont adhere to it for the most part ...
If teams didnt think a pass catching tightend was important then why are so many good ones
now using them?
I dont see why you cant have 3 wideout set with a pass catching tightend in the mix as well.
Gives a defense more to worry about and maybe a tightend would actually block someone downfield
if need be...

[cwing]

[quote name='bengaled' post='614076' date='Dec 26 2007, 06:18 PM']fine, support your argument and name one.[/quote]

Name one what? RB? Team? What?

I believe I supported my argument just fine. Besides ------- I'm not refuting that TE's cannot be effective. I doubt I could be any more clear on that. As a matter of fact it would not break my heart to go get a great one.

By the way -------- one has already been named ------- Kevin Faulk in NE so i'll throw a few others out there. How about C Perry -- Bengals in 2005 ------ ok I know that is not current so how about Brian Westbrook --- Philly. Let's try St Louis with Jackson now and Marshall just a few years ago. Seems to me that offense was pretty damn good with 3 wide outs and a RB out of the backfield. How about Ari, SF, GB, NO with Reggie Bush? Let's not forget that Maurice Jones-Drew fills this role very nicely also.

Since I am not the one questioning the effectiveness of a good TE I believe the burden of proof to be in your court.

[cwing]

[quote name='claptonrocks' post='614081' date='Dec 26 2007, 06:34 PM']Its getting interesting now... backed him up a bit did we?
I understand his reasoning just dont adhere to it for the most part ...
If teams didnt think a pass catching tightend was important then why are so many good ones
now using them?
I dont see why you cant have 3 wideout set with a pass catching tightend in the mix as well.
Gives a defense more to worry about and maybe a tightend would actually block someone downfield
if need be... [/quote]

First no one was backed up ---------- again I do not disagree that there is a place for good TE's. Never once.
Second --- does not matter what you adhere to -------- there are not 32 good TE's in the league. I'm guessingwithout going roster hunting you cannot name 15. You'll get through the AFC North, find a few other names and then be at a loss. Be honest, write them down without looking.
Third --- who said some teams do not utilize a TE and that TE's cannot be productive? I sure didn't.
Forth --- you can ---- see Indy. Point is and has always been --- More than one way to skin a cat.

[claptonrocks]

[quote name='cwing' post='614096' date='Dec 26 2007, 07:13 PM']First no one was backed up ---------- again I do not disagree that there is a place for good TE's. Never once.
Second --- does not matter what you adhere to -------- there are not 32 good TE's in the league. I'm guessingwithout going roster hunting you cannot name 15. You'll get through the AFC North, find a few other names and then be at a loss. Be honest, write them down without looking.
Third --- who said some teams do not utilize a TE and that TE's cannot be productive? I sure didn't.
Forth --- you can ---- see Indy. Point is and has always been --- More than one way to skin a cat.[/quote]
Ill take you up on the challenge of naming tightends off the top of my head..
1. Ben Watson ...NE
2. Dallas Clark ...Indy
3. Heath Miller....Pitt
4. Todd Heap....Balt
5. Kellen Winslow..Cleve
6. Antonio Gates.. SD
7. Tony G.......KC
8. Jeremy Shockey.. NYG
9. Jason Witten.. Dallas
10. Alge Crumpler.. Atl
11. Desmond Clark.. Bears
12. Chris Cooley .. Wash
13. Vernon Davis ...SF
14. LJ Smith ...Philly
15. Leonard Pope... Zona
16. Mercedes Lewis ...Jax

I cant think of anymore offhand.. Im sure I left out a few good ones....Id rather have all but Pope or Lewis ( neither has developed yet) than what we have now...

[bengaled]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='614078' date='Dec 26 2007, 07:29 PM']well, New England this year for one. Yes, they use a TE, but they could get by without one considering their own weapons. Welker covers the middle of the field fine, and you'll see Moss and Stallworth go over the middle every now and then too. Take away Watson's stats, and Brady has still thrown 42 TD's this year.


I'm a fan of the TE too, but cwing has a point. Its more about the matchup problems and covering all areas of the field then actually having a specific player called a TE and lining up at a certain position.[/quote]

my gawd, that's about the most piss-poor, off target example that you could have possibly listed. yeah, ON TOP OF ALL THEIR OTHER WEAPONS, the pats NEVER use ben watson or kyle brady. disregard their combined 420 yds and 8 TDS. their offense relied on the TE even more than that in past years... years where their offense has been quite effective...years when they didn't have the wealth of receiving targets they obtained in this last off-season. and it's the threat of that upper tier TE target that allows for their WR's to be even more effective than they'd normally be, if they didn't have a bona-fide offensive threat there that opposing defenses had to respect.

try again.

[bengaled]

[quote name='claptonrocks' post='614081' date='Dec 26 2007, 07:34 PM']Its getting interesting now... backed him up a bit did we?
I understand his reasoning just dont adhere to it for the most part ...
If teams didnt think a pass catching tightend was important then why are so many good ones
now using them?
I dont see why you cant have 3 wideout set with a pass catching tightend in the mix as well.
Gives a defense more to worry about and maybe a tightend would actually block someone downfield
if need be... [/quote]

exactly

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='bengaled' post='614104' date='Dec 26 2007, 07:46 PM']my gawd, that's about the most piss-poor, off target example that you could have possibly listed. yeah, ON TOP OF ALL THEIR OTHER WEAPONS, the pats NEVER use ben watson or kyle brady. disregard their combined 420 yds and 8 TDS. their offense relied on the TE even more than that in past years... years where their offense has been quite effective...years when they didn't have the wealth of receiving targets they obtained in this last off-season. and it's the threat of that upper tier TE target that allows for their WR's to be even more effective than they'd normally be, if they didn't have a bona-fide offensive threat there that opposing defenses had to respect.

try again.[/quote]


sounds like someone's getting a little defensive because not everyone is bowing down to his thread topic.

We're not talking about New England last year, we are talking about them this year. Again, I'm a fan of a strong pass catching TE, but is more about matchups and covering all parts of the field than the point of it being a TE that does it. YOu act like a TE is the only one who can cause a mismatch.

[bengaled]

[quote name='cwing' post='614084' date='Dec 26 2007, 07:42 PM']Name one what? RB? Team? What?

I believe I supported my argument just fine. Besides ------- I'm not refuting that TE's cannot be effective. I doubt I could be any more clear on that. As a matter of fact it would not break my heart to go get a great one.

By the way -------- one has already been named ------- Kevin Faulk in NE so i'll throw a few others out there. How about C Perry -- Bengals in 2005 ------ ok I know that is not current so how about Brian Westbrook --- Philly. Let's try St Louis with Jackson now and Marshall just a few years ago. Seems to me that offense was pretty damn good with 3 wide outs and a RB out of the backfield. How about Ari, SF, GB, NO with Reggie Bush? Let's not forget that Maurice Jones-Drew fills this role very nicely also.

Since I am not the one questioning the effectiveness of a good TE I believe the burden of proof to be in your court.[/quote]

sorry, i've got to disagree.

new england has always had a wealth of TE's. it's the threat of an effective TE that opens up lanes for kevin faulk to be used...ie defenses have to respect and cover that threat .

brian westbrook wouldn't be nearly as effective if LJ smith, and to a much lesser extent, matt shoebel not on the field.

st louis realized the mismatch advantages that the lack of that threat created and acquired randy micmichael in FA this year...not a total success but neither is their record....BUT THEY DID TRY! micmichael's 38 catches for 425 yds and the threat he creates would obviously been a welcome addition. BTW, the rams also have some WR's that aren't too shabby.

arizona didn't have a good year. that happens when you lose your qb. regardless, they realized the point i'm making by drafting leonard pope and ben patrick in back to back years.

SF, bottom dwellers....but let's see, didn't they just draft one of IF NOT THEE most highly respected TE prospects of all time? vernon davis is still learning the game, but i'd take his 50 balls for almost 500 yds in cincy any day of the week.

this is getting tiring...need i go on?