Most Americans would pay less taxes under President Obama than McCain

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='673532' date='Jun 16 2008, 03:48 PM']No look I argree that we should be looking at others as well, and I absoutly agree with you that the lives lost are the most wasteful, and that's really the worst kind of waste isnt it?

[b]Who said I was choosing sides politically, if Clinton invaded on false pretenses I'd be just as pissed.[/b][/quote]

Yes - and agreed.

I'd be pissed too if a president did something on knowingly false pretenses...


But, you have (or had) multiple sources all echoing the same thing. Clinton being one of them. Were they all lying???

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='673534' date='Jun 16 2008, 02:52 PM']Yes - and agreed.

I'd be pissed too if a president did something on knowingly false pretenses...


But, you have (or had) multiple sources all echoing the same thing. Clinton being one of them. Were they all lying???[/quote]


knowingly...

what is it going to take?

The Plame Affair
Scott McCleon (sp?) Book


For me having a secret clearance and knowing what I know about how things are handled I knew libby was lying. I stoped lying to myself once I saw what they were doing reguarding Ms. Plame.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Chris Henrys Dealer' post='673508' date='Jun 16 2008, 01:20 PM']"We don't pay taxes...only the little people pay taxes" - Leona Helmsley


Canada has a pretty f'ed up tax system. could be simplified, but it is progressive at higher levels of income. Which I find really strange about the US one, whereby someone like Warren Buffet for example, pays less on a % basis then his secratary.[/quote]


Speaking of Ms. Helmsely...

How stuff like this doesnt piss everyone off is beyond me... (seriously a dog, a damned dog)

[url="http://news.aol.com/story/_a/leona-helmsleys-dog-loses-10-million/20080616131609990001"]http://news.aol.com/story/_a/leona-helmsle...616131609990001[/url]

[quote]Leona Helmsley's Dog Loses $10 Million
AP
Posted: 2008-06-16 14:48:08
NEW YORK (June 16) - Leona Helmsley's dog isn't quite as well-heeled as she used to be.

Manhattan Surrogate Judge Renee Roth has reduced the trust fund for the little dog, named Trouble, from $12 million to $2 million

The remaining $10 million now goes to Helmsley's charitable foundation.

The 9-year-old Maltese lives in Florida with the general manager of the Helmsley Sandcastle Hotel.

Helmsley became known as the "queen of mean" during her 1989 trial for tax evasion. A former housekeeper testified that she heard Helmsley say: "We don't pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes."

Helmsley denied having said it, but the words followed her until her death last August at age 87.

The court decision, made April 30, became public Monday.[/quote]

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='673536' date='Jun 16 2008, 03:56 PM']knowingly...

what is it going to take?

The Plame Affair
Scott McCleon (sp?) Book


For me having a secret clearance and knowing what I know about how things are handled I knew libby was lying. I stoped lying to myself once I saw what they were doing reguarding Ms. Plame.[/quote]

The Plame Affair, or Wilson's Document? One involves her secret identity the other obviously his finding, or in this case, lack of finding credible evidence to support Cheney's original request...

McClellan's book - we can argue till doomsday... if he had all these issues with various things - why didn't he say something when he was still getting that fat paycheck? Convenient, he starts "revealing" things after he's been fired.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='673546' date='Jun 16 2008, 03:25 PM'][color="#FF0000"]The Plame Affair, or Wilson's Document? One involves her secret identity the other obviously his finding, or in this case, lack of finding credible evidence to support Cheney's original request... [/color]

McClellan's book - we can argue till doomsday... if he had all these issues with various things - why didn't he say something when he was still getting that fat paycheck? Convenient, he starts "revealing" things after he's been fired.[/quote]


For me it was Plame because I had an understanding of what you dont simply "forget" as Libby liked to claim.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='673547' date='Jun 16 2008, 04:28 PM']For me it was Plame because I had an understanding of what you dont simply "forget" as Libby liked to claim.[/quote]

I agree in regards to Plame being outed... that isn't right and is dirty.

Regarding Wilson's document, which in it he even questions the potential for his information to be wrong or the administration to potentially have other information overriding it, - is that the sole grounds for false pretenses?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='673552' date='Jun 16 2008, 03:32 PM']I agree in regards to Plame being outed... that isn't right and is dirty.

Regarding Wilson's document, which in it he even questions the potential for his information to be wrong or the administration to potentially have other information overriding it, - is that the sole grounds for false pretenses?[/quote]


If he was wrong, why out his wife? Why not simply say "Yes Mr. Wilson you are wrong."?

[bengalrick]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='673488' date='Jun 16 2008, 12:33 PM']Yes but isnt "finishing up" supposed to take 100 years?






(kinda)[/quote]

yeah, those damn wars with Germany and Japan are getting annoying too, huh?

[Homer_Rice]

[img]http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/5623/bushconnecticutwelcomenk0.jpg[/img]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bengalrick' post='673568' date='Jun 16 2008, 04:36 PM']yeah, those damn wars with Germany and Japan are getting annoying too, huh?

[/quote]


So is the one with Vietnam.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='673534' date='Jun 16 2008, 03:52 PM']Yes - and agreed.

I'd be pissed too if a president did something on knowingly false pretenses...


But, you have (or had) multiple sources all echoing the same thing. Clinton being one of them. Were they all lying???[/quote]
[url="http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/Images/Charts/WarCardChart.jpg"]Hmm[/url]?

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='673641' date='Jun 17 2008, 11:38 AM'][url="http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/Images/Charts/WarCardChart.jpg"]Hmm[/url]?[/quote]
And that's 935 false statements... only up to September 2003.

[|Bunghole|]

I honestly still believe that Saddam had them...and shipped them out to a bordering country prior to the invasion or hid them somewhere where we haven't looked yet.
There's a lot of places you can hide small canisters of shit like that in a sand-filled country, or in an unknown location, or underwater.
Seriously, I still believe that this current admin truly believed that there were WMD's somewhere. Nobody really knew the truth, not the UN inspectors, not GWB, not anyone but Saddam, but he wasn't telling. And now he's dead.
Now whether or not they were still viable is another issue. These things have a shelf life.
Ridicule away, I don't care. It's what I believe.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Bunghole' post='673646' date='Jun 16 2008, 08:46 PM']I honestly still believe that Saddam had them...and shipped them out to a bordering country prior to the invasion or hid them somewhere where we haven't looked yet.
There's a lot of places you can hide small canisters of shit like that in a sand-filled country, or in an unknown location, or underwater.
Seriously, I still believe that this current admin truly believed that there were WMD's somewhere. Nobody really knew the truth, not the UN inspectors, not GWB, not anyone but Saddam, but he wasn't telling. And now he's dead.
Now whether or not they were still viable is another issue. These things have a shelf life.
Ridicule away, I don't care. It's what I believe.[/quote]


Is it what you believe or what you want to believe because of what the alternitive means?

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='673651' date='Jun 16 2008, 09:56 PM']Is it what you believe or what you want to believe because of what the alternitive means?[/quote]


To believe he had them is much more reasonable and logical than to believe he didn't, regardless of what you think of Bush.

[Nati Ice]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='673706' date='Jun 17 2008, 01:37 AM']To believe he had them is much more reasonable and logical than to believe he didn't, regardless of what you think of Bush.[/quote]
what planet are you on

reasonable?

by whos standards? the evidence says that he didnt have them and couldnt get them.


but dont let silly things like facts get in the way of your gut feelings

[Homer_Rice]

Time and time again, the tragedy of human history plays out because people operate from the epistemological level of "belief." One key problem, as Bung pointed out elsewhere, is that the leaders we elect, and who ought to be the ones performing their Constitutional duties of oversight, failed us, mostly because they chose to operate at the level of belief. Instead, we have a DC/politico culture which in some ways has congratulated itself for abdicating many of their responsibilities--most importantly in this instance--though not for the first time--the duty to issue an actual Declaration of War.

In my opinion, it's precisely this cultural predeliction for cutting corners, and the subsequent jimmying of excuses for justifying the practice, which has led us to this sorry state. In a way, we are getting what we asked for because the ultimate failure is among our citizenry who elect the overseers of the republic. Our demonstrated preference for the art of puppetry instead of the art of statecraft is short-sighted and bound to bring us to harm.

It's not enough to believe. On the really important stuff, we gotta know. At the minimum, if we don't know, we gotta know enough to find someone who does know. And not merely because our country is supposed to stand for something good and decent in the world, but also equally important, [url="http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/06/military_suicide_060808w/"]to prevent countless tragedies such as this one[/url]. And, no matter what one thinks about the origins of this war, and no matter how much we squabble with each other for "entertainment" purposes, the reality is that there is a mini-mountain of such cases piling up right in front of our eyes.

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='673721' date='Jun 17 2008, 08:00 PM']Time and time again, the tragedy of human history plays out because people operate from the epistemological level of "belief." One key problem, as Bung pointed out elsewhere, is that the leaders we elect, and who ought to be the ones performing their Constitutional duties of oversight, failed us, mostly because they chose to operate at the level of belief. Instead, we have a DC/politico culture which in some ways has congratulated itself for abdicating many of their responsibilities--most importantly in this instance--though not for the first time--the duty to issue an actual Declaration of War.

In my opinion, it's precisely this cultural predeliction for cutting corners, and the subsequent jimmying of excuses for justifying the practice, which has led us to this sorry state. In a way, we are getting what we asked for because the ultimate failure is among our citizenry who elect the overseers of the republic. Our demonstrated preference for the art of puppetry instead of the art of statecraft is short-sighted and bound to bring us to harm.

It's not enough to believe. On the really important stuff, we gotta know. At the minimum, if we don't know, we gotta know enough to find someone who does know. And not merely because our country is supposed to stand for something good and decent in the world, but also equally important, [url="http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/06/military_suicide_060808w/"]to prevent countless tragedies such as this one[/url]. And, no matter what one thinks about the origins of this war, and no matter how much we squabble with each other for "entertainment" purposes, the reality is that there is a mini-mountain of such cases piling up right in front of our eyes.[/quote]
Homer, I'm with you. But disagree at the same time.

Millions of us went to the polls in 06 and said fuck the war. And elected the folks who claimed that they agreed with us that the war should end. And within months, those folks fucked us in the ass sideways in ways that GWB only dreamed of. And financed the war far into the future against their promises, and our wishes.

The system is fucking broken. We can pretend about who we're going to vote for making a difference, but each mofo who makes it through to election day has been pre-approved by those with the $$ to fund a campaign. And until campaign contribution limits are set at an amount that EVERY American can afford, the wealthy sychophants will continue to sell the masses out.

I agree in being tired of the bullshit squabbling. But that is just one of the evils of the system, imo.

We, as a nation, voted to continue the war in 06, almost as much as we voted assclown W into office in 00 and 04. The net is the same. The will of the voters has been superseded by those with the power/funds to buy the system in any way they fucking please.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='673554' date='Jun 16 2008, 04:38 PM']If he was wrong, why out his wife? Why not simply say "Yes Mr. Wilson you are wrong."?[/quote]

I agree with that. That is why I said in a post above to do such a thing is just dirty.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='673706' date='Jun 17 2008, 12:37 AM']To believe he had them is much more reasonable and logical than to believe he didn't, regardless of what you think of Bush.[/quote]


Once had yes, I comepletely agree with that. Had them at the time of invasion, well....

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='673723' date='Jun 17 2008, 07:09 AM']I agree with that. That is why I said in a post above to do such a thing is just dirty.[/quote]


Perhaps I wasnt being clear.

There was no good reason to out his wife other than they knew they were democrats and thought that they were playing politics, the admin knew Wilson was right.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='673725' date='Jun 17 2008, 08:39 AM']Once had yes, I comepletely agree with that. Had them at the time of invasion, well....[/quote]

Damn, Jamie, did I just read that right??? I'm along these lines as well. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say and I'd bet $100 bill that all his crap went to Syria, etc.

Otherwise, why not allow weapons inspections from the UN??? What have you got to hide?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='673728' date='Jun 17 2008, 07:47 AM']Damn, Jamie, did I just read that right??? I'm along these lines as well. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say and I'd bet $100 bill that all his crap went to Syria, etc.

Otherwise, why not allow weapons inspections from the UN??? What have you got to hide?[/quote]


Yes you did, he once used them on Iran remember?


However he hadnt had them in a long while, Blitz had said as much in his report.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='673731' date='Jun 17 2008, 08:52 AM']Yes you did, he once used them on Iran remember?


However he hadnt had them in a long while, Blitz had said as much in his report.[/quote]
Then why not allow UN weapons inspections? And, get some of the UN sanctioning off his back?

Not familiar with Blitz... in a non-football sense anyway.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='673651' date='Jun 16 2008, 09:56 PM']Is it what you believe or what you want to believe because of what the alternitive means?[/quote]

That brings the question.....Do we as individuals choose our reading based on what we want to believe is true? aka McClellan?




We live in a world where all someone has to do is write it and then to some people it [b]has[/b] to be true.