|SF2| Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744315' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:31 PM']Because saying so is an attempt to discredit.[/quote] ????? Discredit who?? What are you talking about? Discredit Marino? I don't consider Carson a Marino type QB. Carson is more mobile and I honestly think he makes better decisions at the line of scrimmage. Marino played in a system specifically designed to throw passes, nothing more. Also, I just don't remember Marino being very clutch in big games. I can't recall many miraculous fourth quarter drives in the playoffs or anything of that nature. Once a good defensive team made adjustments, the Dolphins typically did not win. Marino NEVER EVER WOULD RUN. I mean NEVER. All of the dlinemen and linebackers could have strokes and he would still try and complete a pass. It kept him healthy but it didn't impress me. It made it much easier for D coordintors to gameplan him althought that was still a tough task with the wideouts he had. If Carson played in the same system that Marino did he could have just as easily thrown for 65,000 yards as well IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='scharm' post='744264' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:59 PM']double crazy talk[/quote] I mean just look at Marino's records.... Most Attempts, Career: 8,358 (surpassed by Brett Favre in 2007) Most Completions, Career: 4,967 (surpassed by Brett Favre in 2006) Most Yards Passing, Career: 61,361 (surpassed by Brett Favre in 2007) Most Touchdown Passes, Career: 420 (surpassed by Brett Favre in 2007) Most Yards Passing, Season: 5,084 in 1984 Most Touchdown Passes, Season: 48 (surpassed by Peyton Manning (49) in 2004 and by Tom Brady (50) in 2007) Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Career: 13 Most Games, 400 or more Yards Passing, Season: 4 in 1984 Most Games, 300 or more Yards Passing, Career: 63 Most Seasons, 3,000 or more Yards Passing: 13 (1984-92, 1994-95, 1997-98) (surpassed by Brett Favre in 2005) Most Consecutive Seasons, 3,000 or more Yards Passing: 9 (1984-92) (surpassed by Brett Favre in 2001) Most Games, Four or more Touchdown Passes, Career: 21 Most Games, Four or more Touchdown Passes, Season: 6 in 1984 Most Games, Three or more Touchdown Passes, Career: 62 (surpassed by Brett Favre in 2007) Lowest Percentage, Passes Intercepted, Rookie Season: 2.03 in 1983 (296-6) [surpassed by Charlie Batch, Detroit, 1.98 in 1998 (303-6)] Most Seasons Leading League, Attempts: 5 (1984, 1986, 1988, 1992, 1997) Most Seasons Leading League, Completions: 6 (1984-86, 1988, 1992, 1997) Most Seasons, 40 or more Touchdown Passes: 2 (1984, 1986) 100 TD Passes in Fewest Number of Games to Start Career: 44 (9/7/1986 at San Diego) 200 TD passes in Fewest Number of Games to Start Career: 89 (9/17/1989 at New England) 300 TD passes in Fewest Number of Games to Start Career: 157 (9/4/1994 vs. New England) Highest TD-INT differential: +168 Records he has tied.... Most Seasons Leading League, Yards Gained: 5 (1984-86, 1988, 1992) with Sonny Jurgensen (Philadelphia, 1961-62; Washington, 1966-67, 1969) Most Consecutive Seasons Leading League, Completions: 3 (1984-86) with George Blanda (Houston, 1963-65) Most Consecutive Games, 400 or more Yards Passing: 2 (1984) with Dan Fouts (San Diego, 1982), Phil Simms (N.Y. Giants, 1985), Billy Volek (Tennessee, 2004), Matt Cassel (New England, 2008) Most Wins against one team: 24 against the Indianapolis Colts (surpassed by Brett Favre against the Detroit Lions in 2007) Im not about to take away from Elway (just like I didnt take away from ben) but John Elway was not a better QB than Dan Marino. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eva4ben-gal Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744328' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:30 PM']Im not about to take away from Elway (just like I didnt take away from ben) but John Elway was not a better QB than Dan Marino.[/quote] The point is, ask 100 people on the street who was better and most will say Elway. In 100 years nobody will remember what records Marino did or didn't hold as most will probably be broken, but Elway will still be a 2-time Super Bowl champ. I'm sure there are plenty of old timers that think Marino couldn't hold Sammy Baugh's jock strap but try finding 50 fans at an average NFL game that even know who Slingin' Sammy is. None of this speaks to a guy's actual talent but when greatness is measured it is done with wins and losses and championship rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='eva4ben-gal' post='744334' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:38 PM']The point is, ask 100 people on the street who was better and most will say Elway. In 100 years nobody will remember what records Marino did or didn't hold as most will probably be broken, but Elway will still be a 2-time Super Bowl champ. I'm sure there are plenty of old timers that think Marino couldn't hold Sammy Baugh's jock strap but try finding 50 fans at an average NFL game that even know who Slingin' Sammy is. None of this speaks to a guy's actual talent but when greatness is measured it is done with wins and losses and championship rings.[/quote] I dont agree with that. People remember how good Marino was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744336' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:40 PM']I dont agree with that. People remember how good Marino was.[/quote] Agreed. Marino changed the game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eva4ben-gal Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744336' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:40 PM']I dont agree with that. People remember how good Marino was.[/quote] You have to remember that the average NFL "fan" only watches their favorite team, maybe some playoffs and the Super Bowl. Not everybody takes the time to become a true fan of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='eva4ben-gal' post='744340' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:43 PM']You have to remember that the average NFL "fan" only watches their favorite team, maybe some playoffs and the Super Bowl. Not everybody takes the time to become a true fan of the game.[/quote] I'd say even the casual fan knows marino. [quote name='oftt4' post='744253' date='Feb 3 2009, 07:26 PM']I'm pretty sure that I have always said Palmer is a very good QB, I have simply maintained that I think a certain other QB is better.[/quote] Brady? Manning? I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='eva4ben-gal' post='744334' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:38 AM']The point is, ask 100 people on the street who was better and most will say Elway. In 100 years nobody will remember what records Marino did or didn't hold as most will probably be broken, but Elway will still be a 2-time Super Bowl champ. I'm sure there are plenty of old timers that think Marino couldn't hold Sammy Baugh's jock strap but try finding 50 fans at an average NFL game that even know who Slingin' Sammy is. None of this speaks to a guy's actual talent but when greatness is measured it is done with wins and losses and championship rings.[/quote] I just remember his games against the Browns. Elway was frikking incredible and he would lower his helmet and take on a dback for an extra yard if needed. Marino simply never got his jersey dirty. Elway would do whatever it took to win, Marino would not. Steve Young was similar to Elway. When they saw the opening they were not afraid to go. Reality is if you could covered the Dolphins wideouts, there was simply no way the Dolphins and Marino could beat you. In 242 games Marino played he rushed for 87 yards. In 234 games Elway rushed for 3407. IN 169 games Steve Young rushed for 4239 yards. You are correct. The rings have a funny way of changing perception. Most people think Terry Bradshaw must have put up huge numbers in his career with all those great catches by Swann and Stallworth. Reality is his numbers are bland and his QB rating barely broke 70. BTW, Lynn Swann does not belong in the hall of fame. He never had a season where he caught for over 900 yards. Chris Carter has over 8400 MORE yards than Swann. Unfortunatly, thats what rings do for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BENGALS666 Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Both HOF greats. Different schemes, different strengths. Marino won the conference passing title 4 times to Elway's 2 (same as Boomer). All these "all-time" records that have been broken by Manning and Favre of late were held by Marino, not Elway.. If you asked the average fan, odds are they wouldn't know how many rings Elway had and the only reason they would know Marino had none was because commentators never shut up about how a QB at his level deserved one. Can the average NFL fan name one RB that played with Marino? Elway had Terrell Davis during his SB run.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='SF2' post='744327' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:22 PM']????? Discredit who?? What are you talking about? Discredit Marino? I don't consider Carson a Marino type QB. Carson is more mobile and I honestly think he makes better decisions at the line of scrimmage. Marino played in a system specifically designed to throw passes, nothing more. Also, I just don't remember Marino being very clutch in big games. I can't recall many miraculous fourth quarter drives in the playoffs or anything of that nature. Once a good defensive team made adjustments, the Dolphins typically did not win. Marino NEVER EVER WOULD RUN. I mean NEVER. All of the dlinemen and linebackers could have strokes and he would still try and complete a pass. It kept him healthy but it didn't impress me. It made it much easier for D coordintors to gameplan him althought that was still a tough task with the wideouts he had. If Carson played in the same system that Marino did he could have just as easily thrown for 65,000 yards as well IMO.[/quote] Marino was a freak. It wasn't system. He had a quick release so he never really had to run. He'd also bitch up a storm if he got touched (a quality we all love in Boomer) I don't know their Won/Loss record but I recall the Phins in the playoffs quite few times during his years. Don Shula his head coach for many years I think is the winningest head coach ever in the NFL. Edit: Yeah Shula is the winningest coach with 347 wins. He coached Marino 1984-1995. Shula isn't having steakhouses without Dan. I seriously hope he named at least named a Filet after the guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='eva4ben-gal' post='744340' date='Feb 3 2009, 11:43 PM']You have to remember that the average NFL "fan" only watches their favorite team, maybe some playoffs and the Super Bowl. Not everybody takes the time to become a true fan of the game.[/quote] People don't forget Hall of Fame QBs. Besides Marino, Jim Kelly, and Elway are always linked because they came out in the same draft class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [img]http://kissingsuzykolber.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/lol-ben-trophy.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='eva4ben-gal' post='744292' date='Feb 3 2009, 08:28 PM']You can throw completion percentages, yards per pass, td-int ratio and all that stuff out there but simply put, Ben has more fourth-quarter comebacks and more Super Bowl rings and so there really is no comparison.[/quote] Those things can be attributed to the team Roethlisberger is on. His Defense keeps them in games. Or doesn't lose them when they get the lead at the end. And like I have already said, yes Ben has 2 rings, but let's not act like they won them because of him. They won their first one despite of him. And this past one, yes he made the plays at the end, but it took and incredible catch by Holmes to win it. Carson has had comebacks that the Defense or special teams lost. He has also had great games that the Defense or special teams lost. Winning has many fathers, but defeat is an orphan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cincity Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Elway won his titles because TD was playing out of his mind!!!! Marino never had a decent running back with him, and after the "Markers" never really had a WR that was top tier... So I think that shows it's that "team" thing again.... Carson never had a D to lean on, that if he made a mistake, the D would pick him up and give him more chances.. I do think CP is a better QB, but if you go by the total "team" accomplishments, then of course Ben wins. Just like I think Marino was better than Elway, but the team accomplishments puts Elway higher... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='scharm' post='744355' date='Feb 4 2009, 07:45 AM']Marino was a freak. It wasn't system. He had a quick release so he never really had to run. He'd also bitch up a storm if he got touched (a quality we all love in Boomer) I don't know their Won/Loss record but I recall the Phins in the playoffs quite few times during his years. Don Shula his head coach for many years I think is the winningest head coach ever in the NFL. Edit: Yeah Shula is the winningest coach with 347 wins. He coached Marino 1984-1995. Shula isn't having steakhouses without Dan. I seriously hope he named at least named a Filet after the guy.[/quote] What are you talking about? Long before Marino showed up in Miami Don Shula had taken the Baltimore Colts to the Superbowl, then went to Miami, had a perfect season and won 2 of 3 Superbowls. Shula was well on his way to the hall of fame and Steakhouse fame before Marino got there. He got more of his wins WITHOUT Marino than with. Marino won 147 games as a QB. Shula won 181 WITHOUT Dan. Shula's winning percentage with Marino: 61% Shula's winning percentage without Marino: 74% Super Bowls with Marino: 1 (loss) Super Bowls without Marino: 3, 2 victories. Yes, he had a quick release but having guys like Clayton and Dupper did not hurt. He'd bitch up a storm if he got touched but wouldn't lower his helmet to get the first down if his life depended on it. He changed the game for awhile but the better defenses adjusted to the Dolphins Pass first offense and would shut them down in the playoffs. I don't completely blame Marino for this but his absolute refusal to run for a first down made a D coordinator's job easier. In my opinon having Marino hurt Shula. Instead of installing a balanced offense he focused too much on the passing game. Contrary to the popular myth, the Dolphin's defense was not that bad particularly later in Marino's career. In his last 6 seasons they averaged 15th out of 28 teams. In 1990, the defense was ranked 4th while the offense was 14th. Imagine if our defense had been ranked 4th anytime the last 5 years? Sorry but Marino had plenty of chances with very good teams to go all the way and never did. In 84 the team was first in offense and 7th in defense. Their loss in the Super Bowl was highlighted by the 9 rushing attempts and 50 passing attempts. Their running back, Tony Nathan, averaged 4.7 yards a carry that year so the other myth that the Dolphins had no running game is simply not true. In fact Nathan averaged 4.8 yards a carry in his 9 years at Miami but they just wouldn't run him much. Hell Nathan led the league in yards per attempt one year at 5.3! If we abandoned the run and threw on almost every down I am sure Carson could put up similar numbers but where does it get you? We basically did that in 2007 out of necessity and Carson had a career year in yardage but his QB rating was 15 points lower than in 05 and he led the league in INTs. Marino was a great QB but my guess is if the Dolphins had quit letting him throw so much, teach him a little play action and had a more balanced offense they probably would have had a trophy or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 In order to do play action you have to have a good enough running back that people believe you might run it, Marino never had that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 you guys can post all the stats you want, doesn't change the fact that ben is better than carson! this is a what you've done for me lately league! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 Tony Nathan was undersized and not a bell cow back. According to Wikipedia he didnt even get the lionshare of carries. [quote]Nathan was an NFL running back for the Miami Dolphins from 1979-1987, drafted in the third round from the University of Alabama. A smart, elusive runner with great pass-catching abilities, [b]Nathan was undersized, and would rarely receive the lion's share of carries.[/b][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 man, i bet all the steeler fans are loving how we're actin like this right now. lets just move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Rumble In the Jungle' post='744412' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:19 AM']man, i bet all the steeler fans are loving how we're actin like this right now. lets just move on.[/quote] says the guy with with ben's dick in his mouth. (you know your my boy but still) but yeah move on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744414' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:23 PM']says the guy with with ben's dick in his mouth. (you know your my boy but still) but yeah move on[/quote] come on dude, quit making excuses, time to move on. his dick is in you mouth too! the difference is, you went ass to mouth! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Rumble In the Jungle' post='744415' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:28 AM']come on dude, quit making excuses, time to move on. his dick is in you mouth too! the difference is, you want ass to mouth! [/quote] whatever go make me some fondue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cincity Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Rumble In the Jungle' post='744407' date='Feb 4 2009, 04:07 PM']you guys can post all the stats you want, doesn't change the fact that ben is better than carson! this is a what you've done for me lately league![/quote] I think Ben just had a better team than CP.. If that's the case Trent Dilfer was better than Dan Marino. Didn't he lead his team to a World Championship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='cincity' post='744422' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:47 AM']I think Ben just had a better team than CP.. If that's the case Trent Dilfer was better than Dan Marino. Didn't he lead his team to a World Championship?[/quote] I dont blame rumble, that rasberry beer is damn good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted February 4, 2009 Report Share Posted February 4, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744408' date='Feb 4 2009, 12:11 PM']Tony Nathan was undersized and not a bell cow back. According to Wikipedia he didnt even get the lionshare of carries.[/quote] So was Barry Sanders, Warrick Dunn and Tiki Barber all of which were smaller backs. Nathan's problem was not his size, he had Perryitis. Fumbled too much. Again, I blame Shula more than Marino on this one. They failed to properly develope the running game and relied way too much on Marino's arm. They simply were one dimensional and when a good defense could stop the passing game, they had nowhere to turn. Not Marino's fault. Play action with a decent "consistent and dedicated" running game would have helped. Again, I think Marino was a great QB. I also think his greatest strengths were over played and they never developed other skills that could have made him even a better QB. He was a drop back quick read and release qB. The best ever. He rarely if ever scrambled so he didn't extend plays like a Montana, Young, Elway, Favre etc.. Sometimes you have to be willing to take a bit hit in a big game. Kurt Warner is very similar to him in style. Stop the quick routes and without any faith in the running game, they were screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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