|Harley| Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 First off, I hate Big Jen, the dipshit. But how do you make the argument that Carson is the better QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Because its a team sport and Ben has a better surrounding cast than Carson does. I think the more important question is how does a bengals fan even make this thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744117' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:24 PM']Because its a team sport and Ben has a better surrounding cast than Carson does. I think the more important question is how does a bengals fan even make this thread?[/quote] The stealers have a better defense. But, aside from TE, I'm not convinced Jen has a better supporting cast on offense. RB is a wait and see. I think Benson has the "potential" to be better than any of the stealers backs. The offensive lines are not all that different (the stealers finished 29th in both sacks allowed and rushing yards per carry, and the Bengals were 30th in both). I think each playing at their best our top 3 WRs are better than the stealer's. So are you sure the stealers have a better supporting cast? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Jason' post='744118' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:30 PM']The stealers have a better defense. But, aside from TE, I'm not convinced Jen has a better supporting cast on offense. RB is a wait and see. I think Benson has the "potential" to be better than any of the stealers backs. The offensive lines are not all that different (the stealers finished 29th in both sacks allowed and rushing yards per carry, and the Bengals were 30th in both). I think each playing at their best our top 3 WRs are better than the stealer's. So are you sure the stealers have a better supporting cast?[/quote] Yeah but defense wins championships and the stealers had the best D in the league...so yes he did have a better supporting cast. Question for ya, if the bengals had a top 5 D from 2005-2007 (excluding 2008 because Carson was hurt) do you really not think we would have gone to the playoffs every year and even competed for superbowl. I would say we would have gone to the superbowl at least once, with playoff appearances all 3 years. Ben wins more games, but I would still say Carson is the better QB if all things were equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Asshats mobility is what makes him a good qb. Just look at all the games when the bengals couldnt get to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Jason' post='744118' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:30 PM']The stealers have a better defense. But, aside from TE, I'm not convinced Jen has a better supporting cast on offense. RB is a wait and see. I think Benson has the "potential" to be better than any of the stealers backs. The offensive lines are not all that different (the stealers finished 29th in both sacks allowed and rushing yards per carry, and the Bengals were 30th in both). I think each playing at their best our top 3 WRs are better than the stealer's. So are you sure the stealers have a better supporting cast?[/quote] Ive long since given Jen the "credit" he deserves with reguarding to his ability to make plays out of the pocket. Carson doesnt do that. The requires Carson having a good Oline to protect him, he hasnt had that since '05. When he did would this thread have been made? I highly doubt it. Fix the Oline, and we will be back in business on O. Further we may have made improvements on D this year, but Carson only played 4 games with that D. Ben is able to take more chances because he knows his D will make up for him if he screws up. Carson has never had that luxary and often has to force things that arent there in effort to get into the endzone because the D he played with was bad and we needed all the points we could get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Ben' post='744121' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:41 PM']Asshats mobility is what makes him a good qb. Just look at all the games when the bengals couldnt get to him.[/quote] Exactly, the fact that he is very good at being mobile makes it hard for defensive backfields to keep on their men through the entire play because he extends the play for longer than most. I'd wonder how "good" he is against a team with a good pass rush. Interestingly enough thats the other thing we need to fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Look... I'm not a Steelers fan by any stretch and not a Ben fan by any stretch... But, what I'm hearing is that he's not as good a QB because he does all his damage "on the move" or "outside the pocket"... well, isn't the job of the quarterback first and foremost to win... no matter what? If you want to compare pocket passer or mobile quarterback, etc. and differentiate then I see it. But, when you're saying flat out, better qb, to say "well he's really good on the move which gives his receivers extra time to get open" and use that as a reason why he's not as good a QB to me doesn't add up. Whatever it takes to get the job done, bottom line. Just give the guy his due... I don't think you need to belittle what Palmer does because quite frankly put him on the Steelers and he's a winner to. I've said the same thing about Brady and Manning - have to switch teams and how would each fair? Yes, to compare them is a little asinine... there are a lot of variables at play that doesn't allow that comparison straight up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengaled Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='744129' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:17 PM']Yes, to compare them is a little asinine... there are a lot of variables at play that doesn't allow that comparison straight up.[/quote] most reasonable statement in this whole thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='744129' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:17 PM']Look... I'm not a Steelers fan by any stretch and not a Ben fan by any stretch... But, what I'm hearing is that he's not as good a QB because he does all his damage "on the move" or "outside the pocket"... well, isn't the job of the quarterback first and foremost to win... no matter what? If you want to compare pocket passer or mobile quarterback, etc. and differentiate then I see it. But, when you're saying flat out, better qb, to say "well he's really good on the move which gives his receivers extra time to get open" and use that as a reason why he's not as good a QB to me doesn't add up. Whatever it takes to get the job done, bottom line. Just give the guy his due... I don't think you need to belittle what Palmer does because quite frankly put him on the Steelers and he's a winner to. I've said the same thing about Brady and Manning - have to switch teams and how would each fair? Yes, to compare them is a little asinine... there are a lot of variables at play that doesn't allow that comparison straight up.[/quote] Palmer would get killed on the steelers with their Oline, but if they did have a good Oline he would do far far far better than he has ever done here. How about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 If you put both on a team with a healthy competent Oline and good receivers I have to go with Carson. Better arm by far. If you put both on a team with a weak oline and decent receivers, you have to go with Jen just due to his durability and ability to make plays and avoid a rush. He did get sacked 46 times this years so he can take a hit and keep playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744132' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:38 PM']Palmer would get killed on the steelers with their Oline, but if they did have a good Oline he would do far far far better than he has ever done here. How about that?[/quote] Agreed 100%. Yep, you said all that and got your point across without disparaging Roethlisberger at all. There isn't a person on this board that could legitimately argue that at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='744135' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:42 PM']Agreed 100%. Yep, you said all that and got your point across without disparaging Roethlisberger at all. There isn't a person on this board that could legitimately argue that at all.[/quote] Give me 2005's O and this years D and I bet you we win the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whodey1971 Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 It's not like there is only one crown to be given to the "only" good QB. For all the Big Ben bashers...you are either willingly ignorant, or in denial. The dude wins games. He has been a stud since high school. The only reason he was "buried" at MU (meaning...not playing for a "bigger" school) is that he played for an idiot head coach who played his own son ahead of Ben. Once the son graduated - Ben got to play his senior year. By then...the "big" schools were not recruiting QB's that were previoulsy off the radar. He was an absolute stud in college. Please spare the "what competition did he play against" comments. Even Ray Charles could see the guy could pass the ball, and lead a team to victory. The day the Steelers drafted him...I used several profanities. Anywhere but the AFC Central. Since his arrival in the league - he has been the QB on two winning superbowl teams...not to mention the number of 10-win seasons he has seen. To those that argue he is a product of his system...see Bubby Brister, Todd Blackledge, Tommy Maddox, Kordell Stewart...and so on. I am glad, as a Bengal fan, to have Carson. Very glad. I still believe Carson is a great QB. However to suggest Ben is not a good QB is just plain dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='whodey1971' post='744141' date='Feb 3 2009, 02:52 PM']It's not like there is only one crown to be given to the "only" good QB. For all the Big Ben bashers...you are either willingly ignorant, or in denial. The dude wins games. He has been a stud since high school. The only reason he was "buried" at MU (meaning...not playing for a "bigger" school) is that he played for an idiot head coach who played his own son ahead of Ben. Once the son graduated - Ben got to play his senior year. By then...the "big" schools were not recruiting QB's that were previoulsy off the radar. He was an absolute stud in college. Please spare the "what competition did he play against" comments. Even Ray Charles could see the guy could pass the ball, and lead a team to victory. The day the Steelers drafted him...I used several profanities. Anywhere but the AFC Central. Since his arrival in the league - he has been the QB on two winning superbowl teams...not to mention the number of 10-win seasons he has seen. To those that argue he is a product of his system...see Bubby Brister, Todd Blackledge, Tommy Maddox, Kordell Stewart...and so on. I am glad, as a Bengal fan, to have Carson. Very glad. I still believe Carson is a great QB. [color="#FF0000"]However to suggest Ben is not a good QB is just plain dumb.[/color][/quote] Show me one post in this thread that said that? One. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|SF2| Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Jamie_B' post='744142' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:54 PM']Show me one post in this thread that said that? One.[/quote] I thinks its more a function of anyone who says Big Jen is a good QB gets attacked for being a Stealers fan or the dreaded I hate the Stealers and no real Bengals fan would ever say something like that. Also the old Ben plays in a great system and thats the only reason he is successful routine. There is some truth to that but he still has to run the offense, complete passes and this year he had to take lots of hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 I think Bengal fans need to suspend the arguement until Carson rebounds. Carson's injured 08 and high INT 07 have taken some luster off his resume. The difference between QBs is night and day. I don't know how you answer who's better. I guess it depends on what you want or need. Carson will throw 30+ times a game, throw high 20s TD passes, and near 4,000 yards. Ben will not, he is not asked or needed to do that on a game to game basis. Ben's going to throw 20+ times a game, get around high Teens for TDs, and throw around 3,200 yards. I think having a top defense takes pressure off of Ben and allows him to only make a few plays a game in order to win. Where as 07 for sure, Carson chucked the ball around alot carelessly to make up for a horrible defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='SF2' post='744146' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:00 PM']I thinks its more a function of anyone who says Big Jen is a good QB gets attacked for being a Stealers fan or the dreaded I hate the Stealers and no real Bengals fan would ever say something like that. Also the old Ben plays in a great system and thats the only reason he is successful routine. There is some truth to that but he still has to run the offense, complete passes and this year he had to take lots of hits.[/quote] Ok and this is a Ben [b]VS[/b] Carson thread. How about this as Ive said it many times in past threads. Both are good QBs, but they are both different QBs. Carson is a Marino who needs a good Oline in front of him Ben is a Elway who can scramble and make things happen. Now given that context and given that Elway has 2 rings and Marino doesnt, would any sane person on this site say Elway is a better QB because of those rings? No. And that doesnt take away from Elway who was a a good QB, nor does it take away from Ben who is a good QB. But a ring doesnt make one better than the other either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Ben' post='744121' date='Feb 3 2009, 01:41 PM']Asshats mobility is what makes him a good qb. Just look at all the games when the bengals couldnt get to him.[/quote] Funny, I thought those were the games where Ben didn't have to move around at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalsOwn Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 His scrambling abilities and his ability to avoid being tackled put him far and above Carson. I don't even see a difference in arm strength, or decision making... Sucks to admit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalsOwn Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Bunghole' post='744155' date='Feb 3 2009, 04:08 PM']Funny, I thought those were the games where Ben didn't have to move around at all! [/quote] Yeah, I thought he was just sitting back on a recliner comfortably chucking the ball all over the field, while eating pringles and sipping Mountain Dew. I wonder if next season he'll play against the Bengals without pads on. Might as well, he might perform better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='BengalsOwn' post='744160' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:10 PM']Yeah, I thought he was just sitting back on a recliner comfortably chucking the ball all over the field, while eating pringles and sipping Mountain Dew. I wonder if next season he'll play against the Bengals without pads on. Might as well, he might perform better.[/quote] With the bengals pass rush he may be able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='BengalsOwn' post='744156' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:08 PM']His scrambling abilities and his ability to avoid being tackled put him far and above Carson. I don't even see a difference in arm strength, or decision making... Sucks to admit.[/quote] My take is that Ben is bigger and stronger than Carson. I don't think he's really faster, but he can shed tacklers much much better and keep plays alive, because face it, once Ben escapes a couple would-be sacks, the defensive secondary has also run out of time to stay on the Steelers wideouts, whom also know how to respond to Ben being in trouble by continuing the route or breaking it off and coming back to him. Carson has a better, purer long ball than Ben, although it isn't like Ben has a weak arm...he doesn't at all. As for the rest, I can't believe anyone in their right mind wouldn't think that having an incredible defense isn't part of a quarterback's "supporting cast". Of course it is. The Steelers just showed everyone that having a premier defense can actually make up for mediocre offensive line play! The Ravens showed it in 2000 too. Obviously you can't win games with only defense ALL the time (2008 Ravens), but it's a huge factor. HUGE. EDIT: Ben also has better pocket awareness than Carson, which helps him escape the rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rumble In the Jungle Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Big Jen > Carson! i'd take jen all day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 [quote name='Rumble In the Jungle' post='744174' date='Feb 3 2009, 03:22 PM']Big Jen > Carson! i'd take jen all day.[/quote] Stop drinking the rasberry beer. Though that is some good beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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