Who is Joe Biden???

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='772991' date='May 3 2009, 12:01 AM']Do you have any idea what goes on with the Saudi's who we have oil contracts with?

Are [b]you people[/b] really this nieve?

How many people on both sides of the isle are going to have to directly tell you it was for oil before you believe it?[/quote]


I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you that you didn't spell naive right.

And what the fuck is up with the "you people"? Is that supposed
derogatory? Or am I group now?


Did I say oil wasn't part of it? Re-read my post that you commented to.
Now tell me that none of that was true, and also wasn't part of the equation.
And that is why I was for going there. Regardless if that was the reasons
Bush had or not, it still was true. And was good enough reason for me to
want to see him taken out.

But I guess it was [i]all[/i] about oil, right?

[oldschooler]

[quote name='bengaled' post='772789' date='May 2 2009, 01:10 PM']yes, we should have just ignored the dumb bastard and left him to deal with his own problems instead of taking them over for him. as bad as he was, he kept stability in the middle east, and we never should have stirred that pot.

the only reason our pilots were getting shot at was because we were trying to provoke such actions so we could justify a need or reason to go to war. we had no business continueing our presence there in the first place.

i couldn't give a damn WHAT he was doing to his people. we don't have the capacity to be the world's supervisor. there are similar or worse situations in other areas of the world...there always has been...i assume there always will be.[/quote]


So, our pilots provoked him to shoot at them?

Had no business being there?

Don't care what he was doing to his people?

You sir are not only a great American, but a fine human being.




[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='773026' date='May 3 2009, 09:13 AM']Some of these folks won't get it until they approach the pearly gates, Jamie. There they'll be met by George Washington...

...who'll promptly go into one of his rare but infamous tirades...

...which he'll top off by a swift kick to the offender's balls.[/quote]


I am surprised you could type that while still looking down your nose at me.


I am also surprised you had me going to heaven in your little quip, though.



[quote name='CTBengalsFan' post='773035' date='May 3 2009, 10:38 AM']Our invasion had a lot more to do with Saddam wanting to deal in Euros than it did with anything oldschooler listed. [/quote]



See, that is the problem (that I have) with most that post in this forum.
I listed reasons for something, said that is why I was for it,
said I just wished they would have done the surge from the
get go, and people want to talk about how the U.S./Bush
was the bad guy. No way Saddam actually deserved to be
taken out, right?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='775464' date='May 11 2009, 09:41 PM']I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you that you didn't spell naive right.

And what the fuck is up with the "you people"? Is that supposed
derogatory? Or am I groupl now?


Did I say oil wasn't part of it? Re-read my post that you commented to.
Now tell me that none of that was true, and also wasn't part of the equation.
And that is why I was for going there. Regardless if that was the reasons
Bush had or not, it still was true. And was good enough reason for me to
want to see him taken out.

But I guess it was [i]all[/i] about oil, right?[/quote]


[img]http://snarkerati.com/movie-news/files/2009/01/robert-downey-jr-tropic-thunder.jpg[/img]

[size=4]What do you mean you people.[/size]



The number of UN violations is a farce, how many UN violations has Israel been guilty of? When will we start caring about those?

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='773064' date='May 4 2009, 02:04 AM']and they would never admit that, they would rather cheer the good ole us of a on than take an honest eye to it and be critical of it, these are the folks that the eliete love to play as pawns in their game for control and its saddening that they allow themselves to be used in that manner just for the purpose of showing love to their country.

I submit those that really love their country and not just want to play the role of cheerleader to all it does, are the ones that are critical of it when it does wrong. Those that just dont turn a blind eye because its easier than admitting we are in the wrong. It's much easer to believe that your country would never go to war for propping up a dead ecnomic system than it is to believe it. Its much easier to be nieve and manuplulated to believe there were WMDs or that we went to be liberators or to rid the world of an evil dictator than it is to believe the truth, because the truth for those that are honest with themselves would dictate that maybe this economic system we have that people have so intertwined as "the american way" isnt all it's cracked up to be and that perhaps we should not have allowed the elite to manipulate us into believing such things a workers rights and a fair tax code allowing for those eliete to pay their fare share, are to be called things like "socialism" or "marxism". I submit that the eliete have had us so scared of the communist ideals of the 80s that they have played you people like a violin to continue down roads to keep money in their pockets while the rest are used and things such as unions blamed. I submit that those who really love their country would never allow for these eliete to manipulate them, using that fear, into believing such trite that our forefathers quite frankly didnt believe.[/quote]
I so want to post my pic from the pentagon for you again... Fits in quite nicely with this post.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='775468' date='May 11 2009, 08:54 PM'][img]http://snarkerati.com/movie-news/files/2009/01/robert-downey-jr-tropic-thunder.jpg[/img]

[size=4]What do you mean you people.[/size]



The number of UN violations is a farce, how many UN violations has Israel been guilty of? When will we start caring about those?[/quote]


Funny, after 6 years, that is still the same response from some.

How about Palestinian sanctions? Are you for them being enforced too?

I have no dog in the Palestinian -Israel fight. I am not Pro-Israeli.
I wish they would work things out. But please, let's not pretend it is all Israel.


And let's not act like because the U.N. isn't invading Israel-Palentine.
to enforce sanctions, that they shouldn't have with Saddam.
Mmmmmmmmmkay?

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='775474' date='May 11 2009, 10:24 PM']Funny, after 6 years, that is still the same response from some.

How about Palestinian sanctions? Are you for them being enforced too?

I have no dog in the Palestinian -Israel fight. I am not Pro-Israeli.
I wish they would work things out. But please, let's not pretend it is all Israel.


And let's not act like because the U.N. isn't invading Israel-Palentine.
to enforce sanctions, that they shouldn't have with Saddam.
Mmmmmmmmmkay?[/quote]


I dont think the UN sanctions are why people go to war is the point, Israel/Iraq/Palastainan/Whoever.

It's a farce, and a farce purportrated by the people who profit off this stuff. Follow the money, stop being nieve.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Bengal Migration' post='775469' date='May 11 2009, 08:57 PM']I so want to post my pic from the pentagon for you again... Fits in quite nicely with this post. [/quote]


Why, is it standing on a soap box with a bunch of misspellings?

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='775475' date='May 11 2009, 09:26 PM']I dont think the UN sanctions are why people go to war is the point, Israel/Iraq/Palastainan/Whoever.

It's a farce, and a farce purportrated by the people who profit off this stuff. Follow the money, stop being nieve.[/quote]


Dude, please stop acting like I am being something
you can't even spell, after it was pointed out to you even.

And who said it was all about sanctions? Really, where
did I say it was all about sanctions?

And money is the reason Germany, Russia and France
voted against the invasion. So please, quit acting like
it was just the mean ole, money hungry U.S.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='775478' date='May 11 2009, 10:31 PM']Dude, please stop acting like I am being something
you can't even spell, after it was pointed out to you even.

And who said it was all about sanctions? Really, where
did I say it was all about sanctions?

And money is the reason Germany, Russia and France
voted against the invasion. So please, quit acting like
it was just the mean ole, money hungry U.S.[/quote]

ALL about sanctions? Its not about sanctions at ALL!!

Stop fooling yourself, stop being played by these people, because what you frankly dont realize is that its you who is being taken advantage of by them.


You think Germany Russia and France care if we are no longer the worlds last super power? You think it doesnt benifit them if we get knocked down a peg or two?


Seriously, stop waiving your flag and singing Lee Greenwood to me. I love my country just as much as the next, but Im not going to pretend it isnt at fault on some things when it is. I refuse to lie to myself.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='775481' date='May 11 2009, 09:38 PM']ALL about sanctions? Its not about sanctions at ALL!!

Stop fooling yourself, stop being played by these people, because what you frankly dont realize is that its you who is being taken advantage of by them.


You think Germany Russia and France care if we are no longer the worlds last super power? You think it doesnt benifit them if we get knocked down a peg or two?


Seriously, stop waiving your flag and singing Lee Greenwood to me. I love my country just as much as the next, but Im not going to pretend it isnt at fault on some things when it is. I refuse to lie to myself.[/quote]



Jamie, please step down off your soap box.
The thin air is killing your brain cells.

Please re-read what I said to begin with . . .

[b]So I guess we should have just let him thumb his nose
at the terms of surrender, shoot at our pilots, kill and
torture his people, starve his people while he pocketed billions,
play games with weapons inspectors, not account for all of his
weapons, ect ect ect.[/b]

Where do I mention the word sanction? Where did I say
sing Lee Greenwood, wave a fucking flag or anything?

Seriously, someone doesn't bash on the U.S., so they
MUST be naive, played, or a fool, huh?

See, I made a comment as to why I was for something.
It wasn't being played, it wasn't being taken advantage of.
It was taking real shit into consideration, and being for something.

Saddam should have been taken out in 1991, IN MY OPINION.
It was a mistake to let him remain in power. A lot of people
died and suffered while he made billions. Just because Russia,
France and Germany were making billions off Saddam and
wanted to "take us down a peg or 2", doesn't mean that I
think it was wrong to do something I thought should have
been done in 1991. So I was ecspecially for it, after he was left to
fester like a boil on our ass for 12 years.

You get it now?

So please, just stop.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='775490' date='May 11 2009, 10:50 PM']Jamie, please step down off your soap box.
The thin air is killing your brain cells.

Please re-read what I said to begin with . . .

[b]So I guess we should have just let him thumb his nose
at the terms of surrender, shoot at our pilots, kill and
torture his people, starve his people while he pocketed billions,
play games with weapons inspectors, not account for all of his
weapons, ect ect ect.[/b]

Where do I mention the word sanction? Where did I say
sing Lee Greenwood, wave a fucking flag or anything?

Seriously, someone doesn't bash on the U.S., so they
MUST be naive, played, or a fool, huh?

See, I made a comment as to why I was for something.
It wasn't being played, it wasn't being taken advantage of.
It was taking real shit into consideration, and being for something.

Saddam should have been taken out in 1991, IN MY OPINION.
It was a mistake to let him remain in power. A lot of people
died and suffered while he made billions. Just because Russia,
France and Germany were making billions off Saddam and
wanted to "take us down a peg or 2", doesn't mean that I
think it was wrong to do something I thought should have
been done in 1991. So I was ecspecially for it, after he was left to
fester like a boil on our ass for 12 years.

You get it now?

So please, just stop.[/quote]



NONE OF THAT IS WHY WE WE WENT IN!

We didnt go in because he was thumbing his nose at the terms of his surrender,

We didnt go in because he was shooting at our pilots

We didnt go in because he was starving and killing his people (if so why havent we gone into darfur? BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE OIL!!!)

We didnt go in because he was playing games with the weapon inspectors


So spare me this line of bullshit!!!

We went in because we as a nation are addicted to oil, it runs our economy, and yet rather than do things that could stop this it is much easier for politicians to manipulate us into buying this line of bullshit because people dont want their taxes raised to pay for things that could benifit us in the long term, they just want the short term things that help them day to day.

you know it's one thing to be a homer of a football team, you can cheer them on nievely and nobody gets hurt, its quite another to be a homer for your country, you cheer them on when its plainly obvious they do wrong on some things and people directly get hurt by it

So no to paraphrase P Diddy.... "I thought I told you that I won't stop, I thought I told you that I won't stop"

this shit is that important, stopping you people from hurting yourselves (and the rest of us in turn) is that important

[Homer_Rice]

[quote]I am surprised you could type that while still looking down your nose at me.
I am also surprised you had me going to heaven in your little quip, though.[/quote]

Well, I did suggest there would ge a greeting party.

Didn't say anything about letting you inside though.

And you take it too personally. You weren't alone in my thoughts when I wrote that.

But, if you like, you can reopen this discussion and I'll personally craft another can of "stop supporting stupid policy" whupass just for you.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='775495' date='May 11 2009, 10:00 PM']NONE OF THAT IS WHY WE WE WENT IN!

We didnt go in because he was thumbing his nose at the terms of his surrender,

We didnt go in because he was shooting at our pilots

We didnt go in because he was starving and killing his people (if so why havent we gone into darfur? BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE OIL!!!)

We didnt go in because he was playing games with the weapon inspectors


We went in because we as a nation are addicted to oil, it runs our economy, and yet rather than do things that could stop this it is much easier for politicians to manipulate us into buying this line of bullshit because people dont want their taxes raised to pay for things that could benifit us in the long term, they just want the short term things that help them day to day.[/quote]

Oh please. Geez.

Of course oil was a factor. Again, where the fuck have I stated otherwise?

I simply said that was enough reason for me. I was for it. I wanted to see it happen
for those reasons. You act like those reasons were not a factor at all. You act like
even if it was all over oil in some people's eyes, those reasons weren't valid enough.


[quote]you know it's one thing to be a homer of a football team, you can cheer them on nievely and nobody gets hurt, its quite another to be a homer for your country, you cheer them on when its plainly obvious they do wrong on some things and people directly get hurt by it[/quote]

Bwahahaha. You can eat shit with some of your talk. Seriously.

How in the fuck am I hurting someone by thinking Saddam was
a bad guy, and should have been taken out in 1991?

Where did I say they did no wrong?

How come almost every member of Congress voted for it,
but it only became a bad thing after things stalled?

And all Bush's and the Neo-cons' fault?

[quote]So no to paraphrase P Diddy.... "I thought I told you that I won't stop, I thought I told you that I won't stop"

this shit is that important, stopping you people from hurting yourselves is that important[/quote]


I am getting really, really tired of the "you people" comments.

P Diddy? LMFAO

And how is something that happened over 6 years ago,
under a totally different Administration "that important" now?


Saddam is gone. Bush is gone. I am happy that both are.
I voted for the same guy this past election as you did.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' post='775496' date='May 11 2009, 10:04 PM']Well, I did suggest there would ge a greeting party.

Didn't say anything about letting you inside though.

And you take it too personally. You weren't alone in my thoughts when I wrote that.

But, if you like, you can reopen this discussion and I'll personally craft another can of "stop supporting stupid policy" whupass just for you.[/quote]


Of course I take it personally, when people say things
I support are that of an idiot, someone that is naive
or being taken advantage of. So I really don't care if
others were lumped in there with me, in your thoughts.

And you can pull out all the cans you feel the need to pull out.
It won't change a fucking thing. I will still be happy that we
went there and removed him. And the reasons I stated, were
good enough for me.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='775499' date='May 11 2009, 11:17 PM']Oh please. Geez.

Of course oil was a factor. Again, where the fuck have I stated otherwise?

I simply said that was enough reason for me. I was for it. I wanted to see it happen
for those reasons. You act like those reasons were not a factor at all. You act like
even if it was all over oil in some people's eyes, those reasons weren't valid enough.[/quote]


Your damned right those reasons were not a factor. Those reasons are what the elite spoon feed people like you to make you ok with it, because if you knew the truth you would never support it. Or at least I hope you wouldnt.


[quote name='oldschooler' post='775499' date='May 11 2009, 11:17 PM']Bwahahaha. You can eat shit with some of your talk. Seriously.

How in the fuck am I hurting someone by thinking Saddam was
a bad guy, and should have been taken out in 1991?[/quote]

Once again, Sadam being a bad guy had ZERO to do with this, do you understand how bad the Saudi's are when it comes to their own people? Yet we have oil contracts with them. CT is dead on right, it had to do with with the petrodollar vs the petroeuro.

[quote name='oldschooler' post='775499' date='May 11 2009, 11:17 PM']Where did I say they did no wrong?

How come almost every member of Congress voted for it,
but it only became a bad thing after things stalled?

And all Bush's and the Neo-cons' fault?[/quote]

What part of eliete, do you think falls under just republicans? You think democrats cant be just as big of neo-cons as republicans can? You think they dont profit either?



[quote name='oldschooler' post='775499' date='May 11 2009, 11:17 PM']I am getting really, really tired of the "you people" comments.

P Diddy? LMFAO

And how is something that happened over 6 years ago,
under a totally different Administration "that important" now?


Saddam is gone. Bush is gone. I am happy that both are.
I voted for the same guy this past election as you did.[/quote]


Because if we dont remember the past, were doomed to repeat it. You think Iraq is it? You think some of the same BS propaganda that you folks fell for for Iraq isnt going to be used when the populace is calm on Iran? You think that they wont be next in a dozen or so years when people have long since forgotten about Iraq? You think we havent tried indirectly, and now that that has failed will be trying directly when the timing is right? You think that has anything to do with Bush or Obama?

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='775501' date='May 11 2009, 11:22 PM']Of course I take it personally, when people say things
I support are that of an idiot, someone that is naive
or being taken advantage of. So I really don't care if
others were lumped in there with me, in your thoughts.

And you can pull out all the cans you feel the need to pull out.
It won't change a fucking thing. I will still be happy that we
went there and removed him. And the reasons I stated, were
good enough for me.[/quote]
That's fair enough.

Still wrong about the war though, so don't be surprised when the chickens come home to roost.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='773064' date='May 3 2009, 01:04 PM']and they would never admit that, they would rather cheer [s]the good ole us of a[/s] [color="#0000ff"]Obama [/color]on than take an honest eye to [s]it[/s] [color="#0000ff"]him[/color] and be critical of [s]it[/s] [color="#0000ff"]him,[/color] these are the folks that the [s]eliete[/s] [color="#0000ff"]elite left[/color] love to play as pawns in their game for control and its saddening that they allow themselves to be used in that manner just for the purpose of showing [s]love to their country[/s] [color="#0000ff"]their hypocritical self-righteousness[/color].

I submit those that really love their country and not just want to play the role of cheerleader to all [s]it[/s] [color="#0000ff"]Obama[/color] does, are the ones that are critical of [s]it[/s] [color="#0000ff"]him[/color] when [s]it[/s] [color="#0000ff"]he[/color] does wrong. Those that just dont turn a blind eye because its easier than admitting [s]we are in the[/s] [color="#0000ff"]he is doing[/color] wrong.[/quote]

Jamie, I have two questions for you. I'd like for Homer to respond too, but I'd really like to hear your response first.

What is Obama doing right?

What is Obama doing wrong?

[|Bengal Migration|]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='775516' date='May 12 2009, 05:22 PM']Jamie, I have two questions for you. I'd like for Homer to respond too, but I'd really like to hear your response first.

What is Obama doing right?

What is Obama doing wrong?[/quote]
Since it's late, and Jamie won't be up for a while, I'd recommend starting with the Chomsky piece Jamie posted in the other thread..

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='775503' date='May 11 2009, 10:26 PM']Your damned right those reasons were not a factor. Those reasons are what the elite spoon feed people like you to make you ok with it, because if you knew the truth you would never support it. Or at least I hope you wouldnt.[/quote]

I am going to say this one last time, the "you people" and "people like you" shit best stop.

Got it? I am not joking. I have shown you a hell of a lot more
respect in this thread than you have shown me. And I am growing
tired of your name calling and derogatory comments.

As far as the "spoon feed by the elite" shit.
C'mon. You act like I sit around with FOXNews
on, jacking off draped in a flag, with I'm Proud to be an American
blasting in the background, and saying "Ameri-CUH, FUCK YEAH".

You don't know me, so don't assume you do.



[quote]Once again, Sadam being a bad guy had ZERO to do with this, do you understand how bad the Saudi's are when it comes to their own people? Yet we have oil contracts with them. CT is dead on right, it had to do with with the petrodollar vs the petroeuro.[/quote]

Really? So we didn't send troops there in 1991?
We didn't have terms to his surrender? We didn't
have no-fly zones and weapons inspectors there?

That was all a ruse for 12 years, leading up to Bush invading?

And I missed the war we had with the Saudis, them thumbing their
noses at our terms of their surrender, them gassing their own people
acting like they had WMDs ect ect ect.



[quote]What part of eliete, do you think falls under just republicans? You think democrats cant be just as big of neo-cons as republicans can? You think they dont profit either?[/quote]

I don't think any of it falls under just the Republicans.
My point was Bush and the Repubs get all the blame.
And that mostly started happening when the media
started calling Iraq a quagmire.



[quote]Because if we dont remember the past, were doomed to repeat it. You think Iraq is it? You think some of the same BS propaganda that [b]you folks[/b] fell for for Iraq isnt going to be used when the populace is calm on Iran? You think that they wont be next in a dozen or so years when people have long since forgotten about Iraq? You think we havent tried indirectly, and now that that has failed will be trying directly when the timing is right? You think that has anything to do with Bush or Obama?[/quote]

I'll let that one slide, since you hadn't been warned yet.

So you think self righteous people that believe their thinking
is the only way to see shit, standing on their soap boxes and
talking down to people that don't see things the way they do,
is the way to go?

And you really think Iraq will ever be forgotten, ecspecially in
our life time?


I'll put it to you as simply as I can.

When Desert Storm happened in 1991, I was pissed that we
didn't take Saddam out. I thought we fucked up. I thought
we should have gotten the U.N. to back us in taking him out,
or we should have done it on our own. As time went bye,
and the more Saddam did, to his people, as far as thumbing
his nose at the terms of surrender, shooting at our pilots
everything, I grew more pissed, and the mistake I saw in
1991, was more evident. So you see, I wasn't spoon fed
anything, by anyone.

I thought Clinton made us look weak to the rest of the World.
We kept getting attacked, and there was little retaliation.
So after 9/11, I was happy to see Bush tell motherfuckers,
no more. And, to me, that included Saddam. His actions
should have never been tolerated, but even more so after 9/11.

And sure, us being an oil guzzling Country, oil was a factor.
More of a factor than I probably care for. But to me, if that
was the factor that righted a wrong that had went on for
over 12 years, then so be it.

That doesn't make me naive, uneducated, a chickenhawk
or any of the other names some of you love to throw around here.

That is the reason I quit posting in this forum. I got tired of debating
issues, and being called names all the time. Notice how you and others
have done that in this thread? How you all have talked down to me,
ridiculed, or tried to make me a joke? All because I don't think taking
Saddam out was all about oil.

Saddam deserved to be taken out because of his actions. Period.
Seriously, whether you think it was all about oil or not,
the fact is, if he had done what he was supposed to do all along, then
we wouldn't have had any excuse to invade. But he didn't. So we did.
I grow rather tired of it being ZERO on him, and ALL on us. And am beyond
tired of being called names and ridiculed by people that don't see it that way.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='775495' date='May 11 2009, 11:00 PM']NONE OF THAT IS WHY WE WE WENT IN!

We didnt go in because he was thumbing his nose at the terms of his surrender,

We didnt go in because he was shooting at our pilots

We didnt go in because he was starving and killing his people (if so why havent we gone into darfur? BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE OIL!!!)

We didnt go in because he was playing games with the weapon inspectors


So spare me this line of bullshit!!!

We went in because we as a nation are addicted to oil, it runs our economy, and yet rather than do things that could stop this it is much easier for politicians to manipulate us into buying this line of bullshit because people dont want their taxes raised to pay for things that could benifit us in the long term, they just want the short term things that help them day to day.

you know it's one thing to be a homer of a football team, you can cheer them on nievely and nobody gets hurt, its quite another to be a homer for your country, you cheer them on when its plainly obvious they do wrong on some things and people directly get hurt by it

So no to paraphrase P Diddy.... "I thought I told you that I won't stop, I thought I told you that I won't stop"

this shit is that important, stopping you people from hurting yourselves (and the rest of us in turn) is that important[/quote]

Honestly, I do not care "why" we went in...I know the primary reason was oil, but removing a tyrant was a good enough reason for me.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='775516' date='May 12 2009, 04:22 AM']Jamie, I have two questions for you. I'd like for Homer to respond too, but I'd really like to hear your response first.

What is Obama doing right?

What is Obama doing wrong?[/quote]
My answer will be brief:

On the three areas of policy that matter most to me, Obama is almost as bad as Bush, without the viciousness. He appears to be incapable of fixing the econ decline which will hammer us for the next ten years or so; thus far he has fallen for the current geopolitical zeitgeist--which means that we'll eventually get our hats handed to us in both Afganistan and farther west in the Middle east (Iraq and elsewhere) and, when combined with the econ breakdown, we just might end up in WWIII; his politician's lip-service to "change" is proving to be more or less what I thought it would be, so I do not expect any improvement in the general manner of how we go about the business of "representation" in government--in fact, the danger as I see it is what used to be called "fascism with a friendly face," a modern era version of Mussolini corporativism.

None of this changes the fact that our military interloping in the affairs of other nations was wrong in 1991, in 2003, and the too numerous to mention other times we have exercised our power in that fashion since WWII.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='BengalBacker' post='775516' date='May 12 2009, 04:22 AM']Jamie, I have two questions for you. I'd like for Homer to respond too, but I'd really like to hear your response first.

What is Obama doing right?

What is Obama doing wrong?[/quote]


Pretty short. What he is doing right is practicing diplomacy and engaging and talking to the without a preset of conditions.

What he is doing wrong is that he choose the wrong people to be heading the ecnomic team, some of the very people that brought us to where we are. Thats deeply troubling to me.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='775531' date='May 12 2009, 09:24 AM']I am going to say this one last time, the "you people" and "people like you" shit best stop.

Got it? I am not joking. I have shown you a hell of a lot more
respect in this thread than you have shown me. And I am growing
tired of your name calling and derogatory comments.

As far as the "spoon feed by the elite" shit.
C'mon. You act like I sit around with FOXNews
on, jacking off draped in a flag, with I'm Proud to be an American
blasting in the background, and saying "Ameri-CUH, FUCK YEAH".

You don't know me, so don't assume you do.[/quote]


Fine. Give me a better term for people who refuse to be critical and agree with these policies, and Ill refer to you by that term.

[quote name='oldschooler' post='775531' date='May 12 2009, 09:24 AM']Really? So we didn't send troops there in 1991?
We didn't have terms to his surrender? We didn't
have no-fly zones and weapons inspectors there?

That was all a ruse for 12 years, leading up to Bush invading?

And I missed the war we had with the Saudis, them thumbing their
noses at our terms of their surrender, them gassing their own people
acting like they had WMDs ect ect ect.[/quote]

None of this is the reason we went in, we went in because sadam was going to convert to the petroeuro

As far as the saudis'. Do you realize they tourture their own people under sharia law even going as far as amputating them? If this war was about how a evil dictator treats his own people we wouldnt be involved with the saudis, but we have oil contracts with them. That is why i call you nieve, because you are way off in your assumptions as to why we are there. It has nothing to do with helping the iraqi people.

Read - [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1992027.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1992027.stm[/url]

[quote name='oldschooler' post='775531' date='May 12 2009, 09:24 AM']I don't think any of it falls under just the Republicans.
My point was Bush and the Repubs get all the blame.
And that mostly started happening when the media
started calling Iraq a quagmire.[/quote]

Well he did start this war so some blame is deserved, but you havent seen me say bush in this thread so much as ive said neo-con.


[quote name='oldschooler' post='775531' date='May 12 2009, 09:24 AM']I'll let that one slide, since you hadn't been warned yet.

So you think self righteous people that believe their thinking
is the only way to see shit, standing on their soap boxes and
talking down to people that don't see things the way they do,
is the way to go?

And you really think Iraq will ever be forgotten, ecspecially in
our life time?[/quote]

I think that folks will be dupped again yes.

[quote name='oldschooler' post='775531' date='May 12 2009, 09:24 AM']I'll put it to you as simply as I can.

When Desert Storm happened in 1991, I was pissed that we
didn't take Saddam out. I thought we fucked up. I thought
we should have gotten the U.N. to back us in taking him out,
or we should have done it on our own. As time went bye,
and the more Saddam did, to his people, as far as thumbing
his nose at the terms of surrender, shooting at our pilots
everything, I grew more pissed, and the mistake I saw in
1991, was more evident. So you see, I wasn't spoon fed
anything, by anyone.

I thought Clinton made us look weak to the rest of the World.
We kept getting attacked, and there was little retaliation.
So after 9/11, I was happy to see Bush tell motherfuckers,
no more. And, to me, that included Saddam. His actions
should have never been tolerated, but even more so after 9/11.

And sure, us being an oil guzzling Country, oil was a factor.
More of a factor than I probably care for. But to me, if that
was the factor that righted a wrong that had went on for
over 12 years, then so be it.

That doesn't make me naive, uneducated, a chickenhawk
or any of the other names some of you love to throw around here.

That is the reason I quit posting in this forum. I got tired of debating
issues, and being called names all the time. Notice how you and others
have done that in this thread? How you all have talked down to me,
ridiculed, or tried to make me a joke? All because I don't think taking
Saddam out was all about oil.

Saddam deserved to be taken out because of his actions. Period.
Seriously, whether you think it was all about oil or not,
the fact is, if he had done what he was supposed to do all along, then
we wouldn't have had any excuse to invade. But he didn't. So we did.
I grow rather tired of it being ZERO on him, and ALL on us. And am beyond
tired of being called names and ridiculed by people that don't see it that way.[/quote]


Ill one up you, I think we fucked up putting him in power to deal with Iran in the first place, I think we fucked up in how we practice our forigen policy when it comes to using counter insurgencies that really should never be trusted and only make things worse. I cant think of a single instance where it hasnt caused problems. We created Sadam and we had to pay the price for it.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' post='775537' date='May 12 2009, 09:57 AM']Honestly, I do not care "why" we went in...I know the primary reason was oil, but removing a tyrant was a good enough reason for me.[/quote]


People act like im saying sadam was a great guy. No. But I dont believe we went in there for the purposes of removing a tyrant in the slightest. If that were the case, we wouldnt be engaging with other tyrants in oil contracts.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='Jamie_B' post='775555' date='May 12 2009, 11:25 AM'][b]Ill one up you, I think we fucked up putting him in power to deal with Iran in the first place[/b], I think we fucked up in how we practice our forigen policy when it comes to using counter insurgencies that really should never be trusted and only make things worse. I cant think of a single instance where it hasnt caused problems. We created Sadam and we had to pay the price for it.[/quote]


Hmmm.


What was I saying about 1953?