FIRE BRAT

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='B.A.B.' date='10 January 2010 - 03:27 PM' timestamp='1263158820' post='855586']
I mean...but we lost. That's our philosophy, but when your philosophy loses 4 out of your last 5 with your only win coming against the Chiefs, you're not going to get praised for it.
[/quote]

Then it becomes a matter of talent and execution, not philosophy.

What if Shayne makes the FGs, what if Carson isn't overthrowing, what if WRs aren't dropping the ball, what if we don't fumble, what if our D doesn't give up the big runs? None of that has anything to do with our philosophy or Brat.

[Inigo Montoya]

This year has made it hard for me criticize Brat. Marvin demanded a higher % of running plays and Brat obliged. Mikey didn't franchise TJ and he got away. Chris Henry broke his arm. Kelly and Utecht were lost in the preseason. The offensive line shuffled as many as 9 or 10 guys throughout the year, with numerous players affected by injuries at LG and RT. Brat was dealt a rough hand and still it was enough to get into the playoffs. Now it's on Mikey to add some talent to give Brat and his QB more options to work with.

[cwing]

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='10 January 2010 - 04:28 PM' timestamp='1263158907' post='855587']
My point is, when talking about the Bengals, everyone says it's a passing league and you can't win that way. When talking about the Ravens or Jets, everyone says it's oldschool, smashmouth football, and the reason for their success.
[/quote]








If you where listening you heard the same exact thing when the Bengals were winning in the middle of the season. At the begining they were not expected to be much and became the "Comeback Cats" or you something to that effect. when they continued to win you then heard terms like physical, heart, soul, tough. Let's face it, this team did not finish strong and lost 3 of 4 prior to last night so I am not sure why you expect anything different.

That said, hat's off to this team and it's staff for overachieving and overcoming so much during the 09 season.

[cwing]

[quote name='Inigo Montoya' date='10 January 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1263160048' post='855598']
This year has made it hard for me criticize Brat. Marvin demanded a higher % of running plays and Brat obliged. Mikey didn't franchise TJ and he got away. Chris Henry broke his arm. Kelly and Utecht were lost in the preseason. The offensive line shuffled as many as 9 or 10 guys throughout the year, with numerous players affected by injuries at LG and RT. Brat was dealt a rough hand and still it was enough to get into the playoffs. Now it's on Mikey to add some talent to give Brat and his QB more options to work with.
[/quote]

what he said

[|Montana Bengal|]

[quote name='Dan_Bengals_FL' date='10 January 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1263158794' post='855585']
Wow some people are so out of touch that there's not even a point to try to have a sensible football discussion.

By the way though on Hue Jackson, just remember this.

In the NFL there are some position coaches that make great position coaches and would make good/great head coaches, but would be/were terrible coordinators. Hue Jackson fits that mold.
[/quote]

Is Zampese a similar type coach?

[cwing]

[quote name='Dan_Bengals_FL' date='10 January 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1263158794' post='855585']
Wow some people are so out of touch that there's not even a point to try to have a sensible football discussion.

By the way though on Hue Jackson, just remember this.

In the NFL there are some position coaches that make great position coaches and would make good/great head coaches, but would be/were terrible coordinators. Hue Jackson fits that mold.
[/quote]




That's what they said about the former DC that Cleveland hired/fired. He couldn't be more than a DC. He got another cahnce and the rest is NE history.

[Inigo Montoya]

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='10 January 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1263158219' post='855581']
I'm sitting here watching the tv crew sucking the Ravens and Jets dicks because their philosophy is to run the football and play good defense. Yet we suck because our philosophy is to run the football and play good defense.
[/quote]


We ran the ball yesterday, but we didn't play good enough defense. Marvin always talks about not allowing explosive plays and the Bengals yielded 17 points as result of explosive plays. On top of that, we had two turnovers in Jets' territory and two missed field goals. It was bad in all three phases.

[joshua]

With the money we have sunk into this offense, there's no excuse. We have a good QB, good #1 receiver, elite RB and we can't do simple shit like catch passes, give the QB enough time and convert important third downs. I don't expect palmer to have an hour to throw every play, I don't expect WRs to catch everything and I don't expect them to march down and put 6 on the board every possession, but our Offense isn't getting it done. There's no excuses we just have to fix the issues, reload and come back next year dominate our division and get W's at the end of the season. We need a change of pace on offense and I think getting a new OC in there would do the trick.

Sanchez has a playoff win, Flacco now has two seasons in the league and has won playoff games in both, Big Ben has two rings...Palmer hasn't even won a playoff game. I think we need to hold this franchise to a higher standard. 20 years of this shit isn't getting the job done and we were considered an elite team halfway through the season. We're closer to a championship caliber team now than we've been in a long, long time but that doesn't mean changes don't need to be made. Our offense has looked shitty all season.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Inigo Montoya' date='10 January 2010 - 03:56 PM' timestamp='1263160581' post='855606']
We ran the ball yesterday, but we didn't play good enough defense. Marvin always talks about not allowing explosive plays and the Bengals yielded 17 points as result of explosive plays. On top of that, we had two turnovers in Jets' territory and two missed field goals. It was bad in all three phases.
[/quote]

Exactly. That's why I said this a couple of posts up.
[quote]
Then it becomes a matter of talent and execution, not philosophy.

What if Shayne makes the FGs, what if Carson isn't overthrowing, what if WRs aren't dropping the ball, what if we don't fumble, what if our D doesn't give up the big runs? None of that has anything to do with our philosophy or Brat.[/quote]

Again, I'm not a Brat lover or hater but people seem to want a scapegoat and Brat has been made the scapegoat for all of this team's ills on here, and every Bengals board for years. Goes with the territory for being an OC, but that doesn't mean it's the truth of what's happening.

[B.A.B.]

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='10 January 2010 - 04:47 PM' timestamp='1263160041' post='855597']
Then it becomes a matter of talent and execution, not philosophy.

What if Shayne makes the FGs, what if Carson isn't overthrowing, what if WRs aren't dropping the ball, what if we don't fumble, what if our D doesn't give up the big runs? None of that has anything to do with our philosophy or Brat.
[/quote]

If your talent doesn't match well with your philosophy, then wtf are ya doin? It has a lot to do with being prepared and knowing how we're going to attack them. You think Carson went out there yesterday and wasn't off on his throws all week? This is shit you've gotta be able to see in practice and realize how to fix or at least work around.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='B.A.B.' date='10 January 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1263160923' post='855611']
If your talent doesn't match well with your philosophy, then wtf are ya doin? It has a lot to do with being prepared and knowing how we're going to attack them. You think Carson went out there yesterday and wasn't off on his throws all week? This is shit you've gotta be able to see in practice and realize how to fix or at least work around.
[/quote]

So let me get this straight. Since Carson was off on his throws yesterday, he must have been off all week in practice. Since he must have been off on his throws all week in practice, the coaches should have fixed that, or worked around it.

So should we have thrown less? Should we have thrown more, even though Carson was off and balls were being dropped? Benson had 169 yards, so we ran it well. Should we have started the second string QB? Should we have just told Carson to throw it better?

Sometimes the players just don't execute, and coaching can only do so much to fix that, especially when you're talking about veterans like Carson, Chad, Coles and Shayne.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='10 January 2010 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1263160897' post='855609']
Exactly. That's why I said this a couple of posts up.


Again, I'm not a Brat lover or hater but people seem to want a scapegoat and Brat has been made the scapegoat for all of this team's ills on here, and every Bengals board for years. Goes with the territory for being an OC, but that doesn't mean it's the truth of what's happening.
[/quote]

I don't think anyone here thinks we have enough talent on offense, but this offense has not been good for a while....especially at scoring points.

This offense has been in a downward trend since 2006.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='10 January 2010 - 04:20 PM' timestamp='1263162059' post='855618']
I don't think anyone here thinks we have enough talent on offense, but this offense has not been good for a while....especially at scoring points.

This offense has been in a downward trend since 2006.
[/quote]

We had BIG money tied up in Willie, Levi and Stacey. They all turned out to be a waste of money, at least since 05, the last time our offense was considered good, and they're all gone. Carson missed a lot of games between then and now, and has never really returned to form from 05. Chad was pouting and not very productive one of those years. We didn't have Benson until the middle of last year. TJ is gone. Andre, the #6 overall pick, has given us nothing yet. We signed a good FA TE who never lived up to expectations, and is gone now because of concussions. We lost our solid blocking TE before this season even started. The TE we drafted this year never got on the field. We lost Steinbach to FA. The list could go on.

I'm not seeing anything in there that is Brat's fault. In fact it can be argued that he got more out of the offense than anyone should expect.


Edited to add, Marvin decided that we're a running team now.

[oldschooler]

I asked Joe Reedy about Brat's contract, but he said he didn't know.
He said that there are a lot of assistants deals up this year though.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='10 January 2010 - 04:37 PM' timestamp='1263163071' post='855623']
I'm not seeing anything in there that is Brat's fault. In fact it can be argued that he got more out of the offense than anyone should expect.


Edited to add, Marvin decided that we're a running team now.
[/quote]


The Bengals passed the ball over 500 times last season.
They had almost 100 more passes than they had runs.
Keep in mind, that was with Ryan FitzKitna playing the
majority of the season. Also, with Palmer coming back
from an elbow injury, it made sense to focus more on
the running game.

I too made mention of the inexperienced O-line, the loss of
both starting TEs, the loss of Henry ect.

But the problem with Brat was the Bengals ran little to no motion plays.
They ran little to no slant passes. They ran little to no screen plays.
They ran little to no bootleg plays. After 8 months of watching the team
practice and perform in games, it seems like he never even adjusted to mask
their weaknesses. He didn't put the players in the best position to succeed.
He didn't do things to help the WRs get open ect. He just lined them up and
tried to out muscle them or outrun them.

I am not saying Brat should be fired. Although I wouldn't be upset if he was.
I am just tired of seeing the Offense struggle. Just 4 years ago, the Offense
was a powerhouse and the Defense was a bottom feeder. The past 2 seasons their
roles reversed. I just want whoever is in charge of the Offense to right the
ship and get it right now. I would love to see both sides of the ball be dominant
for a change. I am just not sure Brat is the right man for the job anymore.
If he stays, I hope he proves me wrong.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='10 January 2010 - 05:19 PM' timestamp='1263165549' post='855652']
The Bengals passed the ball over 500 times last season.
They had almost 100 more passes than they had runs.
Keep in mind, that was with Ryan FitzKitna playing the
majority of the season. Also, with Palmer coming back
from an elbow injury, it made sense to focus more on
the running game.

I too made mention of the inexperienced O-line, the loss of
both starting TEs, the loss of Henry ect.

But the problem with Brat was the Bengals ran little to no motion plays.
They ran little to no slant passes. They ran little to no screen plays.
They ran little to no bootleg plays. After 8 months of watching the team
practice and perform in games, it seems like he never even adjusted to mask
their weaknesses. He didn't put the players in the best position to succeed.
He didn't do things to help the WRs get open ect. He just lined them up and
tried to out muscle them or outrun them.

I am not saying Brat should be fired. Although I wouldn't be upset if he was.
I am just tired of seeing the Offense struggle. Just 4 years ago, the Offense
was a powerhouse and the Defense was a bottom feeder. The past 2 seasons their
roles reversed. I just want whoever is in charge of the Offense to right the
ship and get it right now. I would love to see both sides of the ball be dominant
for a change. I am just not sure Brat is the right man for the job anymore.
If he stays, I hope he proves me wrong.
[/quote]

Can't disagree with any of that, but it's my feeling that Brat was kind of handcuffed. I think he would rather be doing a lot of things that he's not allowed to do. Just what I deduce from observing though, I have no inside information.

[NYbengals]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='10 January 2010 - 06:19 PM' timestamp='1263165549' post='855652']
The Bengals passed the ball over 500 times last season.
They had almost 100 more passes than they had runs.
Keep in mind, that was with Ryan FitzKitna playing the
majority of the season. Also, with Palmer coming back
from an elbow injury, it made sense to focus more on
the running game.

I too made mention of the inexperienced O-line, the loss of
both starting TEs, the loss of Henry ect.

But the problem with Brat was the Bengals ran little to no motion plays.
They ran little to no slant passes. They ran little to no screen plays.
They ran little to no bootleg plays. After 8 months of watching the team
practice and perform in games, it seems like he never even adjusted to mask
their weaknesses. He didn't put the players in the best position to succeed.
He didn't do things to help the WRs get open ect. He just lined them up and
tried to out muscle them or outrun them.

I am not saying Brat should be fired. Although I wouldn't be upset if he was.
I am just tired of seeing the Offense struggle. Just 4 years ago, the Offense
was a powerhouse and the Defense was a bottom feeder. The past 2 seasons their
roles reversed. I just want whoever is in charge of the Offense to right the
ship and get it right now. I would love to see both sides of the ball be dominant
for a change. I am just not sure Brat is the right man for the job anymore.
If he stays, I hope he proves me wrong.
[/quote]


Great post OLD. I couldn't agree more. Brat only seems to get results when he has the superior talent. He doesn't seem to make halftime adjustments or scheme for a specific team weaknesses/strengths. And agree about the slants and screens. I don't remember any slants on those 3rd and shorts yesterday. And the screens he does call are some of the worst designed screens i've seen in the NFL. And why no flea-flicker yesterday?


And as a New Yorker, you are one of the reasons i come to this site old. I come hear to get info on my favorite team and this is the best place for it, mostly thanks to you.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='10 January 2010 - 06:36 PM' timestamp='1263166582' post='855664']
Can't disagree with any of that, but it's my feeling that Brat was kind of handcuffed. I think he would rather be doing a lot of things that he's not allowed to do. Just what I deduce from observing though, I have no inside information.
[/quote]

If Brat is handcuffed by Marvin and that is causing the offense problems then one of them has to go....

The guy I know told me this.....his opinion....word for word about Brat.

Take it FWIW...

He said "If Brat is re-signed I will have lost all faith in humanity."

He also said it seems like Brat gets to certain points in the game, looks at the playbook and thinks WTF do I do now..

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='10 January 2010 - 05:43 PM' timestamp='1263167029' post='855668']
If Brat is handcuffed by Marvin and that is causing the offense problems then one of them has to go....

The guy I know told me this.....his opinion....word for word about Brat.

Take it FWIW...

He said "If Brat is re-signed I will have lost all faith in humanity."

He also said it seems like Brat gets to certain points in the game, looks at the playbook and thinks WTF do I do now..
[/quote]

Well, we did sweep the division and win it, so....

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='10 January 2010 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1263167284' post='855672']
Well, we did sweep the division and win it, so....
[/quote]

and where are we now...and what was our December record?

Is that not what a running team is supposed to be built for?


We have to be able to mix up the play calling to compete in the NFL......you know....confuse the other teams D.

The Bengals ranked 24th in total offense....

With the likes of Oakland....KC...Cleveland...etc etc etc.

[BengalBacker]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='10 January 2010 - 05:49 PM' timestamp='1263167368' post='855673']
and where are we now...and what was our December record?

Is that not what a running team is supposed to be built for?


We have to be able to mix up the play calling to compete in the NFL......you know....confuse the other teams D.

The Bengals ranked 24th in total offense....

With the likes of Oakland....KC...Cleveland...etc etc etc.
[/quote]

Well, our two December losses were at Minnesota and at San Diego. At the time, two of the top teams in the league. We were tied with San Diego with a few seconds left. Our January loss to the Jets was a game they had to have and we sat a lot of people.

Look, I'm not saying I'm happy with our offense. I'm just saying that it's not all on Brat.

[cwing]

Per Reedy,

"One of the more immediate matters will be if there are any changes on Marvin Lewis' coaching staff. The only departure at the moment is assistant offensive line coach Bob Surace, who will become the head coach at Princeton, but the key figure everyone is wondering about is defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer's, whose contract is up."

No mention of Brat.

[Scoutforlife591]

Just checking back in,

[size="5"]Has Brat been replaced yet?[/size]

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='BengalBacker' date='10 January 2010 - 06:58 PM' timestamp='1263167907' post='855679']
Well, our two December losses were at Minnesota and at San Diego. At the time, two of the top teams in the league. We were tied with San Diego with a few seconds left. Our January loss to the Jets was a game they had to have and we sat a lot of people.

Look, I'm not saying I'm happy with our offense. I'm just saying that it's not all on Brat.
[/quote]

I did not say it was all on Brat either.....but he IS the OC. Ultimately if the offense does not perform and has been in decline it is on him and/or Marvin.

[The Scales]

[quote name='joshua' date='10 January 2010 - 04:12 PM' timestamp='1263157934' post='855575']
Exactly. His offense at Texas Tech ran what? 15 plays? I'll pass on Leach.
[/quote]


Yeah I don't know what plays Texas Tech ran, I don't think I've ever seen a game they've played. I simply based my statement on inference and sarcasm.