FIRE BRAT

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='joshua' date='15 January 2010 - 04:04 AM' timestamp='1263546248' post='857254']
On twitter:



I know Chow is an ex-USC guy, but it seems like there's no certainty about the OC position among players.
[/quote]


I thought about it...


And I still have no idea what point you are trying to make here.. Or how it is relevant in the slightest.

[F.Cleveland]

[quote name='joshua' date='15 January 2010 - 04:04 AM' timestamp='1263546248' post='857254']
On twitter:



I know Chow is an ex-USC guy, but it seems like there's no certainty about the OC position among players.
[/quote]
Were they talking about Chow as HC of USC? I doubt they were talking about him as the new Bengals OC.

[oldschooler]

[b]Backing Brat[/b]
[b]From emailer Lenny[/b]
I researched the Bengals's offensive rankings starting in 1998:
1998 - 17
|1999 - 15
2000 - 29
2001 - 23 - Bratkowski's first season
2002 - 18
2003 - 13 - Carson is drafted
2004 - 18 - Carson starts
2005 - 6
2006 - 8
2007 - 10
2008 - 32 - Carson is out with an elbow injury
2009 - 24 - Run first offense is implemented

If there are two things you can extrapolate from that information its that when Bratkowski has some reasonable personnel to work with, he can coach a pretty decent offense, and Carson has a positive influence on this offense. It will be interesting to see if the offense improves even more next year, because I think you can then prove a third thing: Carson Palmer is a reps guy. It's been said since he was an NFL draft prospect, and I think the numbers prove it out.





[url="http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html"]http://www.1530homer.com/pages/lancesBlog.html[/url]

[TheBeaverHunter]

To go along with that here are the Bengals sacks per season given up and passing attempts

2004 - 31 - 536
2005 - 21 - 538
2006 - 36 - 523
2007 - 17 - 575
2008 - 51 - 513
2009 - 29 - 477

Just food for thought.

While we were doing that the QBs who Carson used to be listed with, Brady and Manning, were commanding these offenses

Manning
2004 - 2
2005 - 3
2006 - 3
2007 - 5
2008 - 15
2009 - 9

Brady
2004 - 7
2005 - 7
2006 - 11
2007 - 1
2008 - 5 (Not Brady, but a QB who hadn't started since HS) Which gets an OC a HC position.
2009 - 3

[oldschooler]

[quote name='TheBeaverHunter' date='15 January 2010 - 08:18 AM' timestamp='1263565136' post='857286']
To go along with that here are the Bengals sacks per season given up and passing attempts

2004 - 31 - 536
2005 - 21 - 538
2006 - 36 - 523
2007 - 17 - 575
2008 - 51 - 513
2009 - 29 - 477

Just food for thought.

While we were doing that the QBs who Carson used to be listed with, Brady and Manning, were commanding these offenses

Manning
2004 - 2
2005 - 3
2006 - 3
2007 - 5
2008 - 15
2009 - 9

Brady
2004 - 7
2005 - 7
2006 - 11
2007 - 1
2008 - 5 (Not Brady, but a QB who hadn't started since HS) Which gets an OC a HC position.
2009 - 3
[/quote]




Jeremi Johnson, Carson Palmer, Chad Ochocinco and Bobbie Williams
are the only players that were on the roster in 2005. And then you add
in the fact that Carson, Chad and Whitworth were all coming back from
injuries in 2008. Plus Bobbie being the only O-linemen that played the
same position this season, that he played in 2008. Plus losing both
our starting TEs.

I have said before that it wouldn't break my heart if they moved on
from Bratkowski. Obviously they're not. So I am hopeful that he
turns it around. The O-line should be better than this season.
And hopefully the TE and WR positions are more talented, or
has more depth.

I just don't see the reason or need to keep continuing to show
your disdain for Brat. He is going to be the OC in 2010. Embrace it.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='TheBeaverHunter' date='15 January 2010 - 09:18 AM' timestamp='1263565136' post='857286']
To go along with that here are the Bengals sacks per season given up and passing attempts

2004 - 31 - 536
2005 - 21 - 538
2006 - 36 - 523
2007 - 17 - 575
2008 - 51 - 513
2009 - 29 - 477

Just food for thought.

While we were doing that the QBs who Carson used to be listed with, Brady and Manning, were commanding these offenses

Manning
2004 - 2
2005 - 3
2006 - 3
2007 - 5
2008 - 15
2009 - 9

Brady
2004 - 7
2005 - 7
2006 - 11
2007 - 1
2008 - 5 (Not Brady, but a QB who hadn't started since HS) Which gets an OC a HC position.
2009 - 3
[/quote]


not sure the point you're trying to make. The patriots and colts have had much better olines than the Bengals over the last 6 years.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='15 January 2010 - 09:52 AM' timestamp='1263567173' post='857303']
Jeremi Johnson, Carson Palmer, Chad Ochocinco and Bobbie Williams
are the only players that were on the roster in 2005. And then you add
in the fact that Carson, Chad and Whitworth were all coming back from
injuries in 2008. Plus Bobbie being the only O-linemen that played the
same position this season, that he played in 2008. Plus losing both
our starting TEs.

I have said before that it wouldn't break my heart if they moved on
from Bratkowski. Obviously they're not. So I am hopeful that he
turns it around. The O-line should be better than this season.
And hopefully the TE and WR positions are more talented, or
has more depth.

I just don't see the reason or need to keep continuing to show
your disdain for Brat. He is going to be the OC in 2010. Embrace it.
[/quote]


Has he been extended? I haven't heard anything.. Last I knew his contract was up... Is he still under contract?

I have said before that Bratkowski is a good coordinator.. We could do better, but we could also do a lot worse. I think Brat's biggest weakness is play calling and in-game adjustments. However he is also a very good talent evaluator, and knows how to put an offense together.

I won't be upset if we moved on from Brat, but I would be a little anxious because Cincinnati isn't exactly considered a premium job in the NFL.. The only reason we got Zimmer was because of Marvin (that can be said about quite a few personnel). Which is why I get nervous when people talk about wanting to can Marvin. We were lucky to get Marvin, and his presence alone has given some credibility to jobs within this organization that simply were not here before he was hired on.

What coordinating talent is out there? And do the Bengals have the pull to steal a coaching prospect from deeper pockets/wider markets?

[scharm]

They gave up 36 sacks in 2006? That don't seem right.

Well, Brahm got injured, Levi went down, maybe. 36 seems high.

[TheBeaverHunter]

I was just showing stats. The line isn't as bad as everyone is making it. I think people are using that as an excuse.

Here is where we have ranked in sacks given up.

2004 - 7
2005 - 2
2006 - 19
2007 - 2
2008 - 30
2009 - 9

Top 10 4 out of the 6 years. Not too shabby. If the O-Line was as horrible as some people here were to make it then why have the Bengals not pursued FA more effectively? Drafting a RT was a given with the departure of Big Willie and no one to fill his shoes. If they felt the line was that big of a mess, they would have done more than just pick up undrafted FAs and these draft picks

Offensive line picks

2005 - 2 Picks - rds 4 and 5 Center and Tackle
2006 - 1 Picks - rd 2 Tackle
2007 - 1 Picks - rd 7 Guard
2008 - 1 Picks - rd 4 Tackle
2009 - 1 Picks - rd 1 Tackle

The Bengals clearly don't see the line quite as big an issue as some here.

[ccartman2]

[quote name='GoBengals' date='14 January 2010 - 10:23 PM' timestamp='1263525797' post='857237']
if our oline did so well, why did we need 9 of them? and have 7+ blockers to even run the ball?

http://football.about.com/od/fantasyfootball/a/Offensive_Line.htm

and why are they ranked 31st in the entire nfl???



i never said the team with the best players will be best, but you need good players to have success,,

must be why manning, brady, brees, rivers ray rice, were all out of the playoffs.. they just have better discipline than ryan fitzpatrick and marc bulger right?

what a crock of shit.

the bills just lack good coaching and discipline?

the rams just a good OC and DC away from being in first place?

and our offense didnt collapse after the loss of one player.. it was skimming by before we lost a player, but its been missing several players, including our first two starting TE's, and the oline sucked donkey ass in pass protection, its been said several times from multiple coaches..

but yea you should look at those penalties.. what play do you call after 3 straight penalties on your own like 8 yardline?

http://football.about.com/od/fantasyfootball/a/Offensive_Line.htm

wonder why the Bengals have the 31st ranked offensive line.. just bad discipline and coaching.. any 5 blockers are fine.. must be why tackles got in the top 5 in the draft and make 50 million dollars...

in order to get the most out of our skill players we need to protect carson so he can make throws and give chad and co a chance to get into routes and make deep plays. we over loaded the line to make room for benson to have success, but that takes playmakers OFF the field for the passing game..
[/quote]

Ever stop to think I just wanted an 8 page topic to add to my resume..... Anyway, I'm the dumb fuck who started this thread, and I must say, I didn't resort to name calling, even the first time you replied. But anyway, I went over the top, because I knew there would be an over the top response whether I just posed the question or came out bitching. I actually think bob did okay against the jets, but being a fan of this team for much longer then you, I felt okay wasn't good enough. I actually think the biggest problem on Saturday was not the "lack of Slants and Screens" but the failure to just hand it to Ced until they proved they could stop them. He torched their D yet only got the ball 21 times? I will agree, if execution would have been better, we'd be playing San Diego this week. I don't think the game was lost because of Brat.

I am certainly confused how a football genius could actually watch the Bengals for the last three years and not once question the coach of the offense. I can understand being supportive, but I can't understand why it's so important to defend him to the bitter end. But Suit your self. I've already said, once they announce the extension I will go back to supporting him. Right now, he is not a member of the Bengal fan, unless I missed that he signed in the last 24 hours. I also promise that next year, I won't start the fire brat thread. Quoted the wrong damn post.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Lucid' date='15 January 2010 - 09:03 AM' timestamp='1263567787' post='857312']
Has he been extended? I haven't heard anything.. Last I knew his contract was up... Is he still under contract?
[/quote]



Hobson posted this yesterday.



On Monday, offensive coordinator Bob Bratkowski said he was back for his 10th season and on Tuesday defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer signed up for three more years. No word yet on the status of special teams coach Darrin Simmons.



[url="http://www.bengals.com/news/article-1/Dating-Game/754a53c0-b1f7-4eee-92a8-0147175f53fc"][color="#000000"]http://www.bengals.c...a8-0147175f53fc[/color][/url]



Looks to me like he was either extended (if his contract was up)
or told that he wasn't going to be fired (if it wasn't up)

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='TheBeaverHunter' date='15 January 2010 - 10:12 AM' timestamp='1263568347' post='857316']
I was just showing stats. The line isn't as bad as everyone is making it. I think people are using that as an excuse.

Here is where we have ranked in sacks given up.

2004 - 7
2005 - 2
2006 - 19
2007 - 2
2008 - 30
2009 - 9

Top 10 4 out of the 6 years. Not too shabby. If the O-Line was as horrible as some people here were to make it then why have the Bengals not pursued FA more effectively? Drafting a RT was a given with the departure of Big Willie and no one to fill his shoes. If they felt the line was that big of a mess, they would have done more than just pick up undrafted FAs and these draft picks

Offensive line picks

2005 - 2 Picks - rds 4 and 5 Center and Tackle
2006 - 1 Picks - rd 2 Tackle
2007 - 1 Picks - rd 7 Guard
2008 - 1 Picks - rd 4 Tackle
2009 - 1 Picks - rd 1 Tackle

The Bengals clearly don't see the line quite as big an issue as some here.
[/quote]


What if the line [i]IS[/i] really "that bad" but pressure was reduced by scheme and by Carson being quick and alert?

Everyone complains about the lack of a vertical passing attack (when we know both our QB and OC LOVE the long ball), and then cite sack and pressure numbers to support why we could have done it more often.

Isn't it possible that we would not have had those good sack/pressure numbers with a different scheme? And if that is so, isn't it possible that the coaching staff deserves some credit for masking a weakness and making the best of things?

I don't know about those line stats.. But I know football, and I know what I saw. And what I saw was below average pass protection and average (at best) run blocking. Doesn't the myriad of personnel packages and use of extra linemen and heavy sets speak to this?

[TheBeaverHunter]

[quote name='Lucid' date='15 January 2010 - 10:28 AM' timestamp='1263569311' post='857321']
What if the line [i]IS[/i] really "that bad" but pressure was reduced by scheme and by Carson being quick and alert?

Everyone complains about the lack of a vertical passing attack (when we know both our QB and OC LOVE the long ball), and then cite sack and pressure numbers to support why we could have done it more often.

Isn't it possible that we would not have had those good sack/pressure numbers with a different scheme? And if that is so, isn't it possible that the coaching staff deserves some credit for masking a weakness and making the best of things?

I don't know about those line stats.. But I know football, and I know what I saw. And what I saw was below average pass protection and average (at best) run blocking. Doesn't the myriad of personnel packages and use of extra linemen and heavy sets speak to this?
[/quote]

I know football and I know what I saw. More could have been had. A 24th ranked offense does not warrant a pat on the back. The extra lineman was lack of packages and schemes and helped produce worse numbers for offensive passing. When you put an extra lineman plus a TE that is taking away two WRs. If you run two back sets with that, then you limit yourself with one WR in some packages. How can anybody have a succesful passing game when one or two WRs are going against 4-5 bodies (DBs and LBs). That is why Carson had so many check down passes and scrambles, because his one or two WRs were always covered and out numbered.

[|Lucid|]

[quote name='TheBeaverHunter' date='15 January 2010 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1263569577' post='857322']
I know football and I know what I saw. More could have been had. A 24th ranked offense does not warrant a pat on the back. The extra lineman was lack of packages and schemes and helped produce worse numbers for offensive passing. When you put an extra lineman plus a TE that is taking away two WRs. If you run two back sets with that, then you limit yourself with one WR in some packages. How can anybody have a succesful passing game when one or two WRs are going against 4-5 bodies (DBs and LBs). That is why Carson had so many check down passes and scrambles, because his one or two WRs were always covered and out numbered.
[/quote]


Well... Duh.

The question is WHY? If your contention is that they were needlessly putting those extra blockers in, then I could see your point. However, we have no access to information to show whether that was necessary or not.

We have no way of knowing if our passing offense would have improved, or if we would be sans-Palmer come mid season due to getting creamed. My problem with many of the detractors is because their opinions are primarily based off blind speculation.

We know from hard knocks that the opinion of the coaches was "we are weak at the point of attack". I contend the extra linemen and heavy sets were there to make up for perceived deficiencies in the line, and so therefore I can assume the coaches felt that this scheme was necessary to protect the franchise and keep us in games to allow that same franchise QB to help us pull the game out in the end.

It worked more than it didn't. We have no way of knowing that had we not schemed thus that our offense would have been any better. I believe it was the coaches opinion that it could have been worse.

Going off the results from last season, I can't argue with facts against their opinions. I don't see these players every day in practice and have no coaches film to examine.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

If the Bengals have extended Brat then why have they not announced it?

Are they trying to hide it? Even if he was signed last year...why was it not announced then?

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='15 January 2010 - 12:55 PM' timestamp='1263578110' post='857370']
If the Bengals have extended Brat then why have they not announced it?

Are they trying to hide it? Even if he was signed last year...why was it not announced then?
[/quote]
My guess is they want the sting of the playoff loss to wear off before they announce it to avoid riots.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='akiliMVP' date='15 January 2010 - 12:57 PM' timestamp='1263578265' post='857372']
My guess is they want the sting of the playoff loss to wear off before they announce it to avoid riots.
[/quote]

So....I did not want to say it, but I did think it.

They may be embarrassed??

[Khatmandude]

[quote name='GoBengals' date='14 January 2010 - 07:26 PM' timestamp='1263509812' post='857204']
not defending anything.. its common sense.

there have been some of the most ridiculous accusations over the years, all shown to be truly idiotic.

theres nothing to defend, he has had nothing but success in years that didnt have a complete cluster fuck of some sort on offense...

anything goes bad and everyone fucking sucks and everyone needs fired or replaced or released.

we have had a single good defensive season, 1.5 if you're being generous and zimmer is jesus christ himself...

its the same extreme just off the opposite deep end.

i guarantee if the defense has some injuries, like peko, odom, and hall got hurt, all the sudden the defense is ranked 27th and "everyone has injuries" and zimmer sucks the defense sucks, marvin needs fired zimmer doesnt have it anymore, etc..


fans are fickle and have a pretty unrealistic handle on professional football..

im pretty sure you were even part of that GENIUS crew who "we sat there called the plays, we knew all the play!!!111111111"

you yourself are proof that fans say and believe stupid things as fact and base their opinions on them.

theres not a chance in fucking frozen hell anyone here is calling what blocking targets/zones the oline is pulling what hole the RB is headed towards, etc.

any dumbfuck with two eyes who has watched football more than 6 times can PROBABLY guess run vs pass 75%+ of the time... i can do it when i watch the patriots, colts, saints, etc..


how about the run run pass crowd? "all we do is run run pass, everytime" go to a gameday thread... dozens of fans are bitching about run run pass..

when even joe reedy posted the stat that we run the ball 52% of the time on first down..

which frankly alone makes run run pass at MOST a 50/50 chance..

predictable? 2009 is about the only time you could ALMOST say the calling is predictable.. because we are gonna run it 30 times.. tho the 52% pass on first still stood, so its still not at all predictable.. but we ran, and ran all over teams.. having 3 runnings backs with 100+ yard games and all 3 had over 4 yards per carry average on the season..

in the 2005,2--6, 2007 timeframes we hear we are not running enough you cant win passing all the time.. now we can win running al lthe time.. which is it?

another dumbfuck who i think started this thread.. go look, said "hey you ever heard of a screen pass, how about a slant"

pretty observant fan.. just watched the game, and posted immediately after.. and didnt see the 3 screen passes or the slants thrown..


does anyone actually have a valid argument? the only valid argument anyone has ever come up with is "i wouldnt mind a fresh face in there"

and thats not even an argument..

so predictable? obviously not given the stats.
i can guess the plays!!!.. get a fucking grip.
run run pass... obviously not.

given the proper tools he has shown to have already had GREAT success here...

how are the bills offense doing? i mean they ahve TO... with superstars like that you ahve to be better.. fitzpatrick is there..

they were 30th...

must be just a terrible OC up there... clearly with superstars like terrell owens its just bad predictable run run pass play calling..

i guess the bottom 10 teams in offense just have shitty OC's... has nothing to do with players performance..

how about those, what 60 false starts? must be bobs fault too? first and 15 is just as easy.. its the nfl defenses suck anyway..

how many delay of games on 3rd down were there? just makes for more fantasy stats... any other team woulda made it....

any good OC will have success with good players, any good oc will have no success with shitty players..

and above here there is a post about "should ahve performed better with the talent we had" what talent is that? roland? collins? livings? mathis? cook? coates? coles? cosby? purify?

every team has a few good players, the good teams have good lines, good blockers, and good rol players...

when we have those, we have had GREAT success, 4th overall, 8th overall 10-11th overall as the line crumbled even..

no OC on the planet would have done any better in 2008 or 2009, and we were damn good the years before that..

and i can assure you zimmer would have had us ranked dead last with the hot mess of defense we had with miller, schlegal, johnson, etc on defnse a few years back..

players must perform well for game plans to work.
[/quote]


Yeah.............Brat sucks.

Any dumbfuck could throw out stats to back up their assertion but the fact of the matter is that this offense has scored 2 TD’s or less in a game approx 75% of the time since 2006. That's the only stat that truly matters wouldn't you say? Isnt that the purpose of the offense........to score TD's?

In 2005 we had a probowl alternate RB, a top 5 FB, a probowl QB, a probowl WR in Chad with TJ being a probowl alternate and our 3rd WR had 1st Rd talent…..maybe the most talent of any WR on our roster, 2 probowl tackles and a Center who was almost more valuable than those 2 tackles, 2 guards who still start for their respective teams and a TE who was the heart and soul of the lockerroom as well as a damn good blocker and adequate pass catcher in Kelly. You’re telling me an OC coordinated them to a top 6 offense? He should have been fired for not getting them to top 2 or 3 at worst with that cast. In 2006, their ranking was nice……but guess how many games they scored more than 2 TD’s in? I’ll give you a hint………it’s 16 x 0.25. #8 ranked offense scoring a TD in (16 x 0.25) games that year…….AWESOME BOB!

Continue to accept mediocrity though…….

Me, I want our offensive weapons to be used to their potential……..I know……..crazy right? Awesome Bob’s schemes are lacking…….badly. Predictable offense. Most undisciplined offense in football. Lack of points. AWESOME BOB!

Maybe he should put the whiskey bottle down and pickup the actual playbook……which by the way I don’t have a problem with. I think he’s an above avg designer of plays. Too bad he hasn’t a clue when to call the appropriate play given down/distance/situation.

Can’t wait till the Ravens lose and Marvin tries to bring in Hue again.

[VonBlade]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='15 January 2010 - 05:55 PM' timestamp='1263578110' post='857370']
Are they trying to hide it? Even if he was signed last year...why was it not announced then?
[/quote]

Of course they're hiding it.

They don't want the other teams disappointed they've missed out on the biggest genius to ever become a coach.

Let's wait til their fans are excited post-season at the prospect of the offensive guru Brat, and then we'll show them by announcing our 12-year deal.

Bwahahaha.

[Bgal]

Paragraphs are awesome and actually make posts readable. That's all I got.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' date='15 January 2010 - 11:55 AM' timestamp='1263578110' post='857370']
If the Bengals have extended Brat then why have they not announced it?

Are they trying to hide it? Even if he was signed last year...why was it not announced then?
[/quote]



Well, Zampese was given an extension last season.
And it was never announced. Only reason I know for
sure that he was is because it was mentioned in an
ESPN article about him interviewing for the Bears OC job.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='oldschooler' date='15 January 2010 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1263592391' post='857469']
Well, Zampese was given an extension last season.
And it was never announced. Only reason I know for
sure that he was is because it was mentioned in an
ESPN article about him interviewing for the Bears OC job.
[/quote]

If ESPN was right....

Normally, the Bengals announce this kind of stuff....

[BengalBacker]

old's quote from Hobson was updated slightly

[quote]
[b]SIMMONS BACK:[/b] Special teams coach Darrin Simmons confirmed Saturday night that he'll return for an eighth season, which means the Bengals won't have a change in coordinators. The club announced the re-signing of defensive coordinator Mike Zimmer and offensive coordinator [u][b]Bob Bratkowski has indicated he would be back[/b][/u].[/quote]