|SF2| Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 [quote name='scharm' date='09 February 2010 - 09:18 AM' timestamp='1265725120' post='862292'] Yeah they would. Saints were soft up front. Sets the Bengals up. I think a similar situation against SD. 5 away, 5 at home bengals take 6. [/quote] Set the Bengals up to do what? They would just load up the box and dare Carson to drop back for a pass. Our oline wasn't stopping their pass rush. At the beginning of the year I might have agreed with you but by the end of the year the Bengals offense was not very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bengal Migration| Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 [quote name='CarsonCity' date='11 February 2010 - 12:57 PM' timestamp='1265864230' post='862596'] You mean like, as Bengals1181 noted, when it worked for a team in the NCAA National Championship game two days prior?? Christ, this is like trying to argue with a fucking 2 year old. We get it, you guys don't like the "pooch kick". You can call it defensive or whatever helps your argument, but the whole point of the matter is that Marvin called for a play out of halftime on the kikoff that was designed for the Bengals to recover the ball. Period. That can't be refuted, and was the only point I was trying to make. I'm not sure why that has a couple of you guys getting your panties in a bundle, but that's the fact of the matter. I guess if the ball would've dribbled on the ground 8 or 9 yards, been recovered by the Jets, and then converted into a TD, you'd be happier than pigs in shit. At any rate, I'm done with this topic. I'm tired of having to fuckin' repeat myself. [/quote] Has it EVER worked in the NFL? Name one time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 [quote name='SF2' date='11 February 2010 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1265864625' post='862597'] Set the Bengals up to do what? They would just load up the box and dare Carson to drop back for a pass. Our oline wasn't stopping their pass rush. At the beginning of the year I might have agreed with you but by the end of the year the Bengals offense was not very good. [/quote] Do exactly what you stated. That's very similar to the best offensive output seen in SD (which was late in the season). I think they match up well against the Saints. They can run the ball, Saints CBs are not great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 [quote name='scharm' date='10 February 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1265834923' post='862525'] Quit trying to walk the line. Do you want a coaching staff that demonstrates the willingness to take chances or do you want one that plays it safe? Gee I don't have access to every kickoff attempted in the NFL the past few years. Does that make it a bad call? Fuck No. They gambled and lost. Now your wanting us to review the NFL archives to justify it to you? Is it so hard for some Bengal fans to quit being bitches? Don't whine about a coaching staff never taking chances and then when it is pointed out to you that they have, don't start whining about the chance they did take. Is that hard for people to admit they are wrong? [/quote] whatever... [quote name='Bengals1181' date='10 February 2010 - 07:34 PM' timestamp='1265848462' post='862543'] not the NFL, but Texas just successfully did it to Alabama 2 days before we tried it. [/quote] If you recall - or go back and look... if the Alabama player just calls for a fair catch they don't... he was hit and then fumbled it (and, we all know that could have happened on a regular kickoff just as easily). But NFL teams have as much time as they'd like (where college teams only have 20 hrs / week) to cover these types of intricacies and make sure their players are aware that a simple fair catch signal and they can't be impeded to catch the kickoff... [quote name='Bengal Migration' date='10 February 2010 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1265851088' post='862557'] I can't figure out if the others can't read what you're saying or what, but I'm with you. Equating a pooch kick to an onsides kick as an aggressive attempt to get the ball back for your team's offense is fucking laughable. The onsides kick requires more risk because you give up more field position if it fails, but it at least has a *chance* of actually being successful in regaining the ball for your O. Your chances might be less than 1 in 4, but at least you have a chance. A pooch kick is basically a way to prevent the other team from having the chance to get a big return by keeping the ball out of the other team's returner's hands (and preventing Shayne from kicking yet another squib kick out of bounds ) Your odds of recovering possession on a pooch kick? Virtually nil. An onsides kick is an aggressive play. A pooch kick is a defensive play. To argue otherwise is ludicrous. [/quote] Thank you. At least someone can read and comprehend. [quote name='CarsonCity' date='10 February 2010 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1265864230' post='862596'] You mean like, as Bengals1181 noted, when it worked for a team in the NCAA National Championship game two days prior?? Christ, this is like trying to argue with a fucking 2 year old. We get it, you guys don't like the "pooch kick". You can call it defensive or whatever helps your argument, but the whole point of the matter is that Marvin called for a play out of halftime on the kikoff that was designed for the Bengals to recover the ball. Period. That can't be refuted, and was the only point I was trying to make. I'm not sure why that has a couple of you guys getting your panties in a bundle, but that's the fact of the matter. I guess if the ball would've dribbled on the ground 8 or 9 yards, been recovered by the Jets, and then converted into a TD, you'd be happier than pigs in shit. At any rate, I'm done with this topic. I'm tired of having to fuckin' repeat myself. [/quote] Me too. It feels like I'm explaining to a wall... no comprende... [quote name='Bengal Migration' date='11 February 2010 - 12:46 AM' timestamp='1265867205' post='862603'] Has it EVER worked in the NFL? Name one time. [/quote] I can't recall one. And, nobody seems to be able to either. Again - I wasn't arguing whether the coaching staff had the balls to call whatever. I simply was making the case that either they didn't have the balls to play the higher risk (lost field position) / higher reward (significantly better percentage to recover) kick or they did have the balls to make a such a call but the poor judgement to implement something with a higher rate of success. As Migration said - a pooch kick is a defensive kickoff... if you don't get it then the other team gets the ball but on their side of the 50... That is all. But, again, if you can't understand that - then you need help, and I'm wasting my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 [quote name='scharm' date='11 February 2010 - 08:44 AM' timestamp='1265895849' post='862622'] Do exactly what you stated. That's very similar to the best offensive output seen in SD (which was late in the season). I think they match up well against the Saints. They can run the ball, Saints CBs are not great. [/quote] With 5 home and home between Cincy and the Saints you'd lay your money down that we'd beat them 6 out of the 10??? Honestly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='11 February 2010 - 09:04 AM' timestamp='1265897050' post='862627'] With 5 home and home between Cincy and the Saints you'd lay your money down that we'd beat them 6 out of the 10??? Honestly? [/quote] Yeah. Am I supposed to be ashamed of this Bengals team? They can run. I think they could run all over the Saints. I think defense is good enough to slow their offense. I think that equates to the Bengals having more output on offense a weak point. I think that allows them hog the ball. I think we got a good team. Sue me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 [quote name='scharm' date='11 February 2010 - 11:04 AM' timestamp='1265904270' post='862657'] Yeah. Am I supposed to be ashamed of this Bengals team? They can run. I think they could run all over the Saints. I think defense is good enough to slow their offense. I think that equates to the Bengals having more output on offense a weak point. I think that allows them hog the ball. I think we got a good team. Sue me. [/quote] I agree with your philosophy, but not the results. I think we win 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 [quote name='Bengal Migration' date='11 February 2010 - 12:46 AM' timestamp='1265867205' post='862603'] Has it EVER worked in the NFL? Name one time. [/quote] I cannot remember the game, but I think we successfully got the ball after a pooch kickoff because the guy who tried to "catch" it from the opposing team was not a hands guy, and we recovered the "fumble". We are kicking to surprise and to get a guy not used to handling it try to get it, while we plow him. I know it worked once...but hell if I can remember when. And yes, the kick was not exactly as it should have been. Close, but not perfectly executed. Unfortunately, all around bad day for Shayne, no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 [quote name='BengalSIS' date='11 February 2010 - 01:22 PM' timestamp='1265912529' post='862693'] I cannot remember the game, but I think we successfully got the ball after a pooch kickoff because the guy who tried to "catch" it from the opposing team was not a hands guy, and we recovered the "fumble". We are kicking to surprise and to get a guy not used to handling it try to get it, [b]while we plow him[/b]. I know it worked once...but hell if I can remember when. And yes, the kick was not exactly as it should have been. Close, but not perfectly executed. Unfortunately, all around bad day for Shayne, no doubt. [/quote] Not if he fair catches it... And, I don't recall that game in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 [quote] [Thomas Williams, Jacksonville] Recovered a pooch kick at the end of regulation to force overtime versus Houston on Sept. 28 [2008] [/quote] http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=playerbio&bio=34030 [quote] Buffalo Bills coach Dick Jauron won’t come out and say it, but his answer made it clear. “My understanding is that we can’t talk about those issues. This was a ploy to lighten my wallet,” Jauron said with a laugh Wednesday when asked if he had received any clarification from the league regarding [b]the pooch kick his team recovered Sunday[/b] against the Minnesota Vikings. [2006] [/quote] http://www.niagara-gazette.com/Buffalo%20Bills/gnnbuffalorbills_story_278002110.html/resources_printstory [quote] [Neil Rackers] pooch kick in which S Matt Ware recovered, leading to a Tim Hightower TD [2008] [/quote] http://www.azcardinals.com/team/roster/Neil-Rackers/289b7e5c-9a29-4e71-8daa-a3f53accd4e9 [quote] Arizona’s Neil Rackers booted a short but high ‘pooch’ kick that was quickly recovered by the kicking team. [2009] [/quote] http://myfootballscores.com/tag/touchdown/ [The dates from the links would indicate that the previous two quotes about Neil Racker pooch kicks were about two different kickoffs in two different seasons.] [quote] Detroit, eschewing the onside kick, then had placekicker Jason Hanson deliver a (33-yard) "pooch" kick, which was muffed by Packers "receiver" Chris Akins and recovered by the Lions' Todd Lyght at the Green Bay 31-yard line. [2001] [/quote] http://www.packers.com/news/releases/2001/11/11-27b.html/printable/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='11 February 2010 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1265913196' post='862696'] Not if he fair catches it... And, I don't recall that game in the NFL. [/quote] Can't fair catch if it bounces, and it is designed to hit the ground before someone can catch it. Hit the "hole" so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted February 11, 2010 Report Share Posted February 11, 2010 [quote name='BengalSIS' date='11 February 2010 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1265915496' post='862702'] Can't fair catch if it bounces, and it is designed to hit the ground before someone can catch it. Hit the "hole" so to speak. [/quote] I would contend that that would not be considered a "pooch kick". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bengal Migration| Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='BengalSIS' date='12 February 2010 - 02:22 AM' timestamp='1265912529' post='862693'] I cannot remember the game, but I think we successfully got the ball after a pooch kickoff because the guy who tried to "catch" it from the opposing team was not a hands guy, and we recovered the "fumble". We are kicking to surprise and to get a guy not used to handling it try to get it, while we plow him. I know it worked once...but hell if I can remember when. And yes, the kick was not exactly as it should have been. Close, but not perfectly executed. Unfortunately, all around bad day for Shayne, no doubt. [/quote] Good enough for me, Sis. Perhaps it was a bit more aggressively minded than I gave it credit for. Though I still wouldn't call it as ballsy as a traditional on side kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalSIS Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Bengal Migration' date='11 February 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1265938830' post='862777'] Good enough for me, Sis. Perhaps it was a bit more aggressively minded than I gave it credit for. Though I still wouldn't call it as ballsy as a traditional on side kick. [/quote] I don't disagree. But I think that's part of why they might have done it. I don't think it's as expected. Part of it's "lack of success numbers" may very well be due to it's lack of attempts. If it were done frequently, it would be, as others have stated, fairly easy for the receiving team to handle. Eh...whatever. What a sucky day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bengal Migration| Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='BengalSIS' date='12 February 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1265981923' post='862875'] I don't disagree. But I think that's part of why they might have done it. I don't think it's as expected. Part of it's "lack of success numbers" may very well be due to it's lack of attempts. If it were done frequently, it would be, as others have stated, fairly easy for the receiving team to handle. Eh...whatever. [b]What a sucky day.[/b] [/quote] Yup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Cricket' date='11 February 2010 - 01:57 PM' timestamp='1265914646' post='862701'] http://www.patriots.com/team/index.cfm?ac=playerbio&bio=34030 http://www.niagara-gazette.com/Buffalo%20Bills/gnnbuffalorbills_story_278002110.html/resources_printstory http://www.azcardinals.com/team/roster/Neil-Rackers/289b7e5c-9a29-4e71-8daa-a3f53accd4e9 http://myfootballscores.com/tag/touchdown/ [The dates from the links would indicate that the previous two quotes about Neil Racker pooch kicks were about two different kickoffs in two different seasons.] http://www.packers.com/news/releases/2001/11/11-27b.html/printable/ [/quote] Owned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Lucid' date='12 February 2010 - 03:54 PM' timestamp='1266004441' post='863033'] Owned [/quote] For what it's worth, pooch kicks aren't attempted with the idea of recovering them, they're tried with the idea of denying the returning team a long return. Sure, sometimes the returning side botches things or fumbles at the end of the play. That happens on deep kicks too, though probably less often as the returner is more used to handling it. Comparing the recovery rate for pooch kicks to onside kicks doesn't make much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='sparky151' date='12 February 2010 - 02:58 PM' timestamp='1266004690' post='863036'] For what it's worth, pooch kicks [b]aren't attempted with the idea of recovering them,[/b] they're tried with the idea of denying the returning team a long return. [/quote] Oh, they aren't? [quote] Detroit, [b]eschewing the onside kick, then had placekicker Jason Hanson deliver a (33-yard) "pooch" kick,[/b] which was muffed by Packers "receiver" Chris Akins and recovered by the Lions' Todd Lyght at the Green Bay 31-yard line. [/quote] http://www.packers.com/news/releases/2001/11/11-27b.html/printable/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='sparky151' date='12 February 2010 - 02:58 PM' timestamp='1266004690' post='863036'] For what it's worth, pooch kicks aren't attempted with the idea of recovering them, they're tried with the idea of denying the returning team a long return. Sure, sometimes the returning side botches things or fumbles at the end of the play. That happens on deep kicks too, though probably less often as the returner is more used to handling it. Comparing the recovery rate for pooch kicks to onside kicks doesn't make much sense. [/quote] Too bad the guy only asked for 1 time it worked in an actual NFL game. Success rates don't fuckin matter as the decision is made based on a game plan, film study, game situation, and execution. Allow me recap the conv: 1. Alot of Saint dick sucking over the onside kick. 2. Alot of bengal loathing as a result 3. A situation presented to refute 4. Then when there is a clear situation presented that makes all the Saint dick sucking and Bengal loathing look silly, then and only then do success rates matter. Dumb. So as presented in this thread there are two situations recalled that showed Marvin will make the daring call. Playoff game and Dallas game. Let's try to cry a little harder about how bad our good football team actually sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Lucid' date='12 February 2010 - 02:54 PM' timestamp='1266004441' post='863033'] Owned [/quote] Well... Don't know how I was "owned". I wasn't implying it had never worked - I couldn't recall was all. But, whatever. What is extremely funny is one of those examples... if you read the next line down in the story from the link - the receiving team was granted possession after it was ruled the player had called for a fair catch... It is the one about Buffalo from the Niagara Gazette... here is the very next line [quote]Of course, the ball was awarded to the Vikings after the officials incorrectly ruled that Minnesota’s player had made a proper fair catch signal and the Bills had interfered with his opportunity to field the ball.[/quote] [quote name='scharm' date='12 February 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1266007092' post='863051'] Too bad the guy only asked for 1 time it worked in an actual NFL game. Success rates don't fuckin matter as the decision is made based on a game plan, film study, game situation, and execution. Allow me recap the conv: 1. Alot of Saint dick sucking over the onside kick. 2. Alot of bengal loathing as a result 3. A situation presented to refute 4. Then when there is a clear situation presented that makes all the Saint dick sucking and Bengal loathing look silly, then and only then do success rates matter. Dumb. So as presented in this thread there are two situations recalled that showed Marvin will make the daring call. Playoff game and Dallas game. Let's try to cry a little harder about how bad our good football team actually sucks. [/quote] Whatever Scharm. As evidenced by years of posting, etc. you're like arguing with a brick wall. Whatever helps you sleep at night - good for you. You all "showed me"... you managed to pull out 4 examples going back 10 seasons. So, it does OCCASIONALLY work. Apparently, once every 2 1/2 years. Oh, and you have your sequence of events sorely out of order... 1) Questioning of our coaching staff's brass... 2) Defense of brass citing pooch kick attempt 3) Explanation of lack of success historically using the pooch kick vs. the almost 1 in 4 success rate of onside kicks and yes, success percentages... 4) THEN, citing of 5 successful pooch kicks in the last 10 years. That, actually turns into 4 over the 10 years. Don't recall any dicksucking going on... that must be another message board you frequent... But, we could go over explaining the differences again... but that would be further waste of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cricket Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote name='Vol_Bengal' date='12 February 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1266008567' post='863068'] What is extremely funny is one of those examples... if you read the next line down in the story from the link - the receiving team was granted possession after it was ruled the player had called for a fair catch... It is the one about Buffalo from the Niagara Gazette... here is the very next line [quote] Of course, the ball was awarded to the Vikings after the officials [b]incorrectly[/b] ruled that Minnesota’s player had made a proper fair catch signal and the Bills had interfered with his opportunity to field the ball. [/quote] [/quote] Notice the word "incorrectly". The player [b]didn't[/b] make a proper fair catch signal, the Bills recovered...and then the refs screwed it up. It's one of those things that seem to happen to the Bengals more than any other team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scharm Posted February 12, 2010 Report Share Posted February 12, 2010 [quote]Whatever Scharm. As evidenced by years of posting, etc. you're like arguing with a brick wall. Whatever helps you sleep at night - good for you. [/quote] Why don't you just try pooching your arguement over this brick wall instead onsiding into this structure of brick and concrete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigo Montoya Posted February 13, 2010 Report Share Posted February 13, 2010 What do the Saints have that the Bengals don't? They have a great passing offense and we don't. The two teams' rushing offenses are nearly equal. Their defense improved dramatically but so did ours. I'd give the Saints an edge on special teams, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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