Hey fellers

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bammorrisgotmehigh' timestamp='1287412589' post='931651']
I don't mean to get in this argument but when Ben was "managing" his way through his first couple of years and not putting up any gaudy stats but Palmer was putting up crazy numbers the Palmer vs Roethlisberger debate on this board was all about stats. Now it's not about stats?
[/quote]


Stats matter to a point, but you need to look at the game itself and see what happened to cause the stats. (As in the reason for ints ect..)

[bammorrisgotmehigh]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287412804' post='931654']
Stats matter to a point, but you need to look at the game itself and see what happened to cause the stats. (As in the reason for ints ect..)
[/quote]

Agreed, it was just back then I don't remember anyone giving that back to Roethliseberger and "seeing" what he was actually doing in the games to help the Steelers win.

For me I think they are both good and I have always like Carson as a QB at USC and for you all. I think he can still be a big winner and put up better numbers than he has been lately. Just seems to me there is something that just seems "off" in him.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bammorrisgotmehigh' timestamp='1287413367' post='931664']
Agreed, it was just back then I don't remember anyone giving that back to Roethliseberger and "seeing" what he was actually doing in the games to help the Steelers win.

For me I think they are both good and I have always like Carson as a QB at USC and for you all. I think he can still be a big winner and put up better numbers than he has been lately. [color="#FF0000"]Just seems to me there is something that just seems "off" in him.[/color]
[/quote]


Personally I think it's mental. If you watch he seems to be playing scared a bit, which I think is directly proportional to his oline play. Back in '05 when he was lighting it up he had one hell of an oline that kept him very clean, he never really had to go through the "rookie growing" stuff that most rookies get when the team is so bad that it takes a few years to fix all their problems, most top picks have very bad teams that oline is an issue with too. And this Oline has been bad at pass protection since they lost Willie and Levi. And while I think Andre will eventually fill Willies roll, I personally dont care for Whit as a LT, not that he is bad, but he is no Levi, and I think he is a better G than an LT. If this season keeps going like it is and we draft high again, I really hope we address LT and move Whit back inside. In 05 we had a rode grading Oline on the right and athletes on the left with Braham holding it all together. Now its all just a bunch of big road grader types, which is great for the run (at least last year when we were overloading the line) but sucks for the pass. I'd really like to see us get back to a more balanced line that can do both. Though this year they arent even doing well at run blocking.

[bammorrisgotmehigh]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287413849' post='931670']
Personally I think it's mental. If you watch he seems to be playing scared a bit, which I think is directly proportional to his oline play. Back in '05 when he was lighting it up he had one hell of an oline that kept him very clean, he never really had to go through the "rookie growing" stuff that most rookies get when the team is so bad that it takes a few years to fix all their problems, most top picks have very bad teams that oline is an issue with too. And this Oline has been bad at pass protection since they lost Willie and Levi. And while I think Andre will eventually fill Willies roll, I personally dont care for Whit as a LT, not that he is bad, but he is no Levi, and I think he is a better G than an LT. If this season keeps going like it is and we draft high again, I really hope we address LT and move Whit back inside. In 05 we had a rode grading Oline on the right and athletes on the left with Braham holding it all together. Now its all just a bunch of big road grader types, which is great for the run (at least last year when we were overloading the line) but sucks for the pass. I'd really like to see us get back to a more balanced line that can do both. Though this year they arent even doing well at run blocking.
[/quote]

Yea, we need to address our o-line as well in the draft. They have been doing better this year at pass protection. Pouncey was a great start but I know that at some point this year our o-line will take a crap here and there and Ben will be running for his life. I didn't get to see our game yesterday because I got dragged to some stupid craft festival so I had to follow it on my phone thru ESPN gamecast. I have to admit even though I am thrilled Ben is back I do have some concerns that we will not be as run conscious as we were the first 4 games now that Ben is back. I think Spindenhall can be a beast with our O-line but if we are going to start passing more now that Rick James er Ben is back the O-line is going to have to get on point in their Pass Blocking.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='bammorrisgotmehigh' timestamp='1287415581' post='931681']
Yea, we need to address our o-line as well in the draft. They have been doing better this year at pass protection. Pouncey was a great start but I know that at some point this year our o-line will take a crap here and there and Ben will be running for his life. I didn't get to see our game yesterday because I got dragged to some stupid craft festival so I had to follow it on my phone thru ESPN gamecast. I have to admit even though I am thrilled Ben is back I do have some concerns that we will not be as run conscious as we were the first 4 games now that Ben is back. I think Spindenhall can be a beast with our O-line but if we are going to start passing more now that Rick James er Ben is back the O-line is going to have to get on point in their Pass Blocking.
[/quote]


And this for me is where the argument lies in the Ben vs Carson stuff. Carson does not move in the pocket like Ben does, he needs more protection. Alot of your O is based on Ben moving and comeback routes. It was a blessing in disguise when he was suspended this year because it forced you to address Oline in the draft so you could refocus on making the running game the feature as you had to because you didnt know what your QBs would do. Where as in years past Ben as much as he got hit was still able to move around enough to make things happen so the team was able to focus on other areas of need. Carson needs at least an average Oline to keep him protected. I would say someone like Breeze wouldnt be doing as well as he is doing if he didnt have such an amazing Oline in front of him. Same argument.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1287411261' post='931639']
yes Palmer threw a pick six in the first half, and DESPITE it, the team was still up 21-14 late. So no, it didn't directly lose them the game.


In the last 3 minutes, Carson did throw 2 picks. But neither were his fault. One bounced off Chad's hands, and the other the coaches have called out TO for not running his route right and not fighting for the ball. Not to mention the coaches made a bonehead playcall to begin with.


Meanwhile, the defense gave up over 391yds to an average Tampa offense, gave up 5.7ypc to tampa RB's, the team had 9 costly penalties, WR's dropped about 5 passes including two key ones on 3rd down, the coaches abandoned a running game that was working, and the defense got a gift unforced fumble on the 2 yd line or we're not even talking about this being only a 3pt loss.



Carson did not directly cost them that game. Did he play a part? Sure, but stupidity to put it all on his shoulders.


The stupidest thing you can do, which you did, is to merely look at the stat column and think you know shit about what happened in the game.
[/quote]

Yes, yes. Nothing is Palmers fault. Noted.

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287411390' post='931640']
Which he has done since his existence here. He watches 2 bengals games a year and then argues the rest from stats which tells only so much about the games. You're wasting your breath, he's here with an agenda and that agenda isnt to be intellectuality honest.
[/quote]

I have Sunday ticket, and while I dont watch every Bengals game I do tend to see more than just the two against the Steelers. Nice dodge though.

And Bam, the relevance of stats, sports writers, and anything else changes here as needed.

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287417039' post='931692']
And this for me is where the argument lies in the Ben vs Carson stuff. Carson does not move in the pocket like Ben does, he needs more protection. Alot of your O is based on Ben moving and comeback routes. It was a blessing in disguise when he was suspended this year because it forced you to address Oline in the draft so you could refocus on making the running game the feature as you had to because you didnt know what your QBs would do. Where as in years past Ben as much as he got hit was still able to move around enough to make things happen so the team was able to focus on other areas of need. Carson needs at least an average Oline to keep him protected. I would say someone like Breeze wouldnt be doing as well as he is doing if he didnt have such an amazing Oline in front of him. Same argument.
[/quote]

What you are talking about is pocket awareness, and it is a very important quality in a QB. Brady, Manning...they are about as mobile as molasses...yet they still "move" in the pocket. Being mobile has nothing to do with being aware of your surroundings and stepping around to avoid the rush. The lack of that, as you have just stated in Palmer, is a serious flaw that is only exacerbated by poor OL play.

And Ben being suspended forced the Steelers to draft Pouncey? You realize that Ben was suspended on April 21 and they drafted Pouncey on April 22nd. You think they worked up their entire draft board over the course of one night? They had Pouncey in their sights before the Georgia incident even occured. That statement was clearly influenced by crack.


And for god sake, stop with the agenda shit. I used to think Palmer was good, I have said so many times on this very forum, though I never thought he was as good as Ben. I no longer think he is a good QB. Me and about 95% of the sports writers on the planet.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287446323' post='931806']
Yes, yes. Nothing is Palmers fault. Noted.


[/quote]


funny, I never said that, but hey, whatever helps your argument.



Do you also post under the name "scharm" ?

[oftt4]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1287447038' post='931811']
funny, I never said that, but hey, whatever helps your argument.



Do you also post under the name "scharm" ?
[/quote]

In this thread alone you have blamed the OL, the WR, the RB, the coaches, the special teams, and the defense. It isnt hard to read between the lines. According to you, you dont have a player worth a shit on your entire team except Palmer.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287448841' post='931815']
In this thread alone you have blamed the OL, the WR, the RB, the coaches, the special teams, and the defense. It isnt hard to read between the lines. According to you, you dont have a player worth a shit on your entire team except Palmer.
[/quote]


shock and all, more than one player on a team makes mistakes!



I responded to the specific plays you referred to. I thought the pick six was an absolutely awful play and he was completely fooled by the defense. He had 3-4 other bad throws/decisions in the game. INT's 2 and 3 weren't his fault though.


You said Carson single-handedly lost them the game, and that's wrong. Further, I proved to you why its wrong. Don't whine like a bitch just because you got proven wrong. It makes you sound like every other stealers fan and I thought you were better than that.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287446323' post='931806']
Yes, yes. Nothing is Palmers fault. Noted.



I have Sunday ticket, and while I dont watch every Bengals game I do tend to see more than just the two against the Steelers. Nice dodge though.

And Bam, the relevance of stats, sports writers, and anything else changes here as needed.



What you are talking about is pocket awareness, and it is a very important quality in a QB. Brady, Manning...they are about as mobile as molasses...yet they still "move" in the pocket. Being mobile has nothing to do with being aware of your surroundings and stepping around to avoid the rush. The lack of that, as you have just stated in Palmer, is a serious flaw that is only exacerbated by poor OL play.

And Ben being suspended forced the Steelers to draft Pouncey? You realize that Ben was suspended on April 21 and they drafted Pouncey on April 22nd. You think they worked up their entire draft board over the course of one night? They had Pouncey in their sights before the Georgia incident even occured. That statement was clearly influenced by crack.


And for god sake, stop with the agenda shit. I used to think Palmer was good, I have said so many times on this very forum, though I never thought he was as good as Ben. I no longer think he is a good QB. Me and about 95% of the sports writers on the planet.
[/quote]


Manning and Brady also have very very very good lines. We have a below average one.

You think they didnt know about ben until april 21? Your not really that naive are you?

No you have an agenda, first it was "palmers only good because his WRs are good" ect..ect..

Its a system, Palmer is good when his line blocks for him and his WRs get separation. It really is that simple.

Things change here as needed, says the guy who dismissed prisco's rankings of the oline.

Now who is dodging?

[oftt4]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1287449571' post='931816']
shock and all, more than one player on a team makes mistakes!



I responded to the specific plays you referred to. I thought the pick six was an absolutely awful play and he was completely fooled by the defense. He had 3-4 other bad throws/decisions in the game. INT's 2 and 3 weren't his fault though.


You said Carson single-handedly lost them the game, and that's wrong. Further, I proved to you why its wrong. Don't whine like a bitch just because you got proven wrong. It makes you sound like every other stealers fan and I thought you were better than that.
[/quote]

First of all, it is shock and AWE, Norman Schwarzkopf.

Second, you didnt prove jack. You just rationalized to yourself how Palmer throwing three picks, one of which was a TD to the other team, wasnt the major factor in a 3 point loss. Whatever floats your boat champ.


[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287451379' post='931820']
Manning and Brady also have very very very good lines. We have a below average one.

You think they didnt know about ben until april 21? Your not really that naive are you?

No you have an agenda, first it was "palmers only good because his WRs are good" ect..ect..

Its a system, Palmer is good when his line blocks for him and his WRs get separation. It really is that simple.

Things change here as needed, says the guy who dismissed prisco's rankings of the oline.

Now who is dodging?
[/quote]

I am not dodging anything. And you actually proved my point. Nobody here has ever had anything good to say about Prisco, until now...now he is an expert and the only one in the media who knows what he is talking about.

Why not use Football Outsiders rankings, the site that uses a statistical method rather than rectal extraction like Prisco? Could it be because they say that the Bengals line is just fine (5th in run, 8th in pass)? For the record, I dont think they are top 10, nor do I think they are bottom 10. I think they are average.

I for one have never put an ounce of stock in anything Prisco had to say...I am not dodging, I am being consistent.

And as for the draft, do you think they didnt have their draft board pretty much in place by March 5th, after the combine? You're not really that naive are you? They did not draft Pouncey because Ben got suspended. That is such a stupid comment. He wasnt even intended to be the starter for christ's sake. They drafted Pouncey because he was the best player available when they were up, and he happened to fill a need at the weakest link of the the OL. The Steelers dont draft players as a knee jerk reaction to something that happened two days before the draft.

And as for the Palmer is only good blahblahblah, I never said he was ONLY good because of his receivers...I said his receivers were the reason he put up such big numbers, which ***SHOCKER*** was apparently true.

[Hooky]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287448841' post='931815']
In this thread alone you have blamed the OL, the WR, the RB, the coaches, the special teams, and the defense. It isnt hard to read between the lines. According to you, you dont have a player worth a shit on your entire team except Palmer.
[/quote]

You forgot the weather. If Palmer is so great, why do people feel like the rest of the team and the planets need to be perfectly aligned for him to be successful? Like he's the only QB that faces adversity. Some people are so in love with Palmer that they throw the rest of the team under the bus. Perfect example, I took my son to a pre-season game this year. A couple football experts behind me were talking about how great Palmer is. Palmer threw a ball behind TO, the one where they were talking about how awesome Champ Bailey's pass defense was, when it was actually just a poor throw. So these experts are yelling at TO for not catching the ball and earning his money. O'Sullivan comes in a couple series later, makes almost the exact same throw and they blamed O'Sullivan. Then they went on about how much better Palmer is than him, Kitna, Klingler, Jack Thompson, etc... They didn't say anything bad about Jordan Palmer though since he's royalty. Then they left early in the 2nd quarter.

That's another reason why you'll lose the bet. If Mike Brown dumps Palmer, even if he throws close to 20 interceptions again, he will have a riot on his hands.

And for the record, us non- Palmer apologists are being called Palmer haters and that's not true. I don't hate him. I obviously hope he turns it around or the Bengals find other ways to win, i.e.. on the ground, ST, big D plays.. I'm just tired of him being protected from any criticism. I know that it's not all his fault, but I've been arguing against these calims that it's just the OL's fault or anybody's but Palmer's.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287522074' post='932098']

I am not dodging anything. And you actually proved my point. Nobody here has ever had anything good to say about Prisco, until now...now he is an expert and the only one in the media who knows what he is talking about.

Why not use Football Outsiders rankings, the site that uses a statistical method rather than rectal extraction like Prisco? Could it be because they say that the Bengals line is just fine (5th in run, 8th in pass)? For the record, I dont think they are top 10, nor do I think they are bottom 10. I think they are average.

I for one have never put an ounce of stock in anything Prisco had to say...I am not dodging, I am being consistent.

And as for the draft, do you think they didnt have their draft board pretty much in place by March 5th, after the combine? You're not really that naive are you? They did not draft Pouncey because Ben got suspended. That is such a stupid comment. He wasnt even intended to be the starter for christ's sake. They drafted Pouncey because he was the best player available when they were up, and he happened to fill a need at the weakest link of the the OL. The Steelers dont draft players as a knee jerk reaction to something that happened two days before the draft.

And as for the Palmer is only good blahblahblah, I never said he was ONLY good because of his receivers...I said his receivers were the reason he put up such big numbers, which ***SHOCKER*** was apparently true.
[/quote]


I dont recall saying anything one way or the other about Prisco, but I do know that I dont disagree with him here because stats only mean so much if you dont watch the game and see where things are coming from. And no I dont think they are average, they are slightly below average.

Put it this way. When Odell Thurman was suspended, the Bengals knew of the incident MONTHS in advance. You dont think the Steelers knew about Ben earlier than the league? I do. Perhaph "forced" was a strong word, but it did allow you to address the issue.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Hooky' timestamp='1287575334' post='932201']
You forgot the weather. If Palmer is so great, why do people feel like the rest of the team and the planets need to be perfectly aligned for him to be successful? Like he's the only QB that faces adversity. Some people are so in love with Palmer that they throw the rest of the team under the bus. Perfect example, I took my son to a pre-season game this year. A couple football experts behind me were talking about how great Palmer is. Palmer threw a ball behind TO, the one where they were talking about how awesome Champ Bailey's pass defense was, when it was actually just a poor throw. So these experts are yelling at TO for not catching the ball and earning his money. O'Sullivan comes in a couple series later, makes almost the exact same throw and they blamed O'Sullivan. Then they went on about how much better Palmer is than him, Kitna, Klingler, Jack Thompson, etc... They didn't say anything bad about Jordan Palmer though since he's royalty. Then they left early in the 2nd quarter.

That's another reason why you'll lose the bet. If Mike Brown dumps Palmer, even if he throws close to 20 interceptions again, he will have a riot on his hands.

And for the record, us non- Palmer apologists are being called Palmer haters and that's not true. I don't hate him. I obviously hope he turns it around or the Bengals find other ways to win, i.e.. on the ground, ST, big D plays.. I'm just tired of him being protected from any criticism. [color="#FF0000"]I know that it's not all his fault, but I've been arguing against these calims that it's just the OL's fault or anybody's but Palmer's.[/color]
[/quote]


Find me one person who said said its anybody but Palmers fault. One.

It's a combo of people fault, Palmer is only one part of the equation.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287583326' post='932254']
I dont recall saying anything one way or the other about Prisco, but I do know that I dont disagree with him here because stats only mean so much if you dont watch the game and see where things are coming from. And no I dont think they are average, they are slightly below average.

Put it this way. When Odell Thurman was suspended, the Bengals knew of the incident MONTHS in advance. You dont think the Steelers knew about Ben earlier than the league? I do. Perhaph "forced" was a strong word, but it did allow you to address the issue.
[/quote]

No comment on FO rankings....chirp chirp.

As for the draft, you need to let it go. The Steelers knew they needed offensive linemen in the last draft let alone this one. Pouncey was drafted because he was the best available player. He was considered the best C prospect in years, he was rated as a top 15 pick by some and they got him at 18. It had nothing to do with Ben being suspended. A knee jerk reaction to the suspension would have been the signing of a high profile free agent, not the drafting of a center who wasnt guaranteed to start.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287583468' post='932255']
Find me one person who said said its anybody but Palmers fault. One.

It's a combo of people fault, Palmer is only one part of the equation.
[/quote]

Well for one, I dont think OldSchooler has ever seen Carson Palmer do anything wrong, ever.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Hooky' timestamp='1287575334' post='932201']

That's another reason why you'll lose the bet. If Mike Brown dumps Palmer, even if he throws close to 20 interceptions again, he will have a riot on his hands.

And for the record, us non- Palmer apologists are being called Palmer haters and that's not true. I don't hate him. I obviously hope he turns it around or the Bengals find other ways to win, i.e.. on the ground, ST, big D plays.. I'm just tired of him being protected from any criticism. I know that it's not all his fault, but I've been arguing against these calims that it's just the OL's fault or anybody's but Palmer's.
[/quote]

I don't think much of this is true anymore. Palmer has led a charmed existence in terms of being shielded from criticism by fans for quite awhile, but the luster of that is wearing off pretty quickly...in fact, its become TOO over the top and swung TOO FAR the other way with sports media pundits continually asking "what's wrong with Carson Palmer?" as if he were the [i]only[/i] problem on the team. He hasn't played very well or consistently at all this season, but laying ALL the blame at his feet is absurd (no offense).

This entire team is flawed in all three phases, some more than others. To me the offense as a whole is the most guilty party, but it isn't just Palmer to blame. Penalties, dropped balls, wrong routes, bad red zone play and shitty situational play calling pretty much combine to give us the toxic stew of loserrific football we've been seeing. Fix even a couple of those issues and we are a good offense again.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287614512' post='932397']
No comment on FO rankings....chirp chirp.

As for the draft, you need to let it go. The Steelers knew they needed offensive linemen in the last draft let alone this one. Pouncey was drafted because he was the best available player. He was considered the best C prospect in years, he was rated as a top 15 pick by some and they got him at 18. It had nothing to do with Ben being suspended. A knee jerk reaction to the suspension would have been the signing of a high profile free agent, not the drafting of a center who wasnt guaranteed to start.
[/quote]


What about FO, its one site and not the be all end all of the discussion.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287614576' post='932398']
Well for one, I dont think OldSchooler has ever seen Carson Palmer do anything wrong, ever.
[/quote]


You're not paying attention then. Old has said Carson needs to play better but unlike a number of folks around here doesnt put it all on him.

[Hooky]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287616023' post='932402']
You're not paying attention then. Old has said Carson needs to play better but unlike a number of folks around here doesnt put it all on him.
[/quote]

I think the Carson apologists are seeing criticisms of Palmer as solely blaming him for the offense's struggles. I don't think anybody is ignoring the rest of the offense just because they're addressing Palmer's problems. It would be silly to say that the rest of the offense is doing their job. I don't think the OL is playing as bad as others think except for the stupid penalties.

But there are a lot of people aren't blaming Palmer at all. Like Go and Hobson.

There seems to be 2 camps: The ones who think while Palmer could play better, the rest of the offense is making him look bad. And those that think that Palmer is a big part (But not the only part) of a struggling offense.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Hooky' timestamp='1287663553' post='932501']
I think the Carson apologists are seeing criticisms of Palmer as solely blaming him for the offense's struggles. I don't think anybody is ignoring the rest of the offense just because they're addressing Palmer's problems. It would be silly to say that the rest of the offense is doing their job. I don't think the OL is playing as bad as others think except for the stupid penalties.

But there are a lot of people aren't blaming Palmer at all. Like Go and Hobson.

There seems to be 2 camps: The ones who think while Palmer could play better, the rest of the offense is making him look bad. And those that think that Palmer is a big part (But not the only part) of a struggling offense.
[/quote]


Go and Hobson?

Hoboson's job is to write fluff pieces, you cant take anything he writes seriously. Weak example.

Go may be the only person, that Ill give you.

But 99.9% have said Carson needs to play better.

The two camps I see are those who want to put all the blame or most of the blame on Carson (you), and those who think Carson has issue but most of the problem is in a bad Oline or WRs running the wrong routes or dropping balls. (me)

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287615951' post='932401']
What about FO, its one site and not the be all end all of the discussion.
[/quote]

I didnt say it is, I was just offering an alternate "ranking" to Prisco's. And actually, a ranking that is much more relevant since is based on statistics rather than opinion. I just think it is funny that Prisco's ranking is being treated as gospel because it agrees with the general sentiment around here.

[oftt4]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1287583468' post='932255']
Find me one person who said said its anybody but Palmers fault. One.

It's a combo of people fault, Palmer is only one part of the equation.
[/quote]

To wit.

[quote name='GoBengals' timestamp='1287805327' post='932915']
HOW ABOUT THE OLINE?

HOW ABOUT THE WR's??

HOW ABOUT THE DROPS?


there isnt a single thing wrong with carson..


[/quote]

And yes, I know it was mentioned above.

[oldschooler]

[quote name='oftt4' timestamp='1287614576' post='932398']
Well for one, [b]I dont think[/b] OldSchooler has ever seen Carson Palmer do anything wrong, ever.
[/quote]




Fuck off!

You are right, you don't think.




And Hooky, you should be fucking ashamed of yourself.
Your posts look no different than a Stealers troll's posts.
Think about that for a minute or 10. Seriously.

[oftt4]

[quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1287929465' post='933045']
Fuck off!

You are right, you don't think.




And Hooky, you should be fucking ashamed of yourself.
Your posts look no different than a Stealers troll's posts.
Think about that for a minute or 10. Seriously.
[/quote]

Brilliant analysis. I especially liked the "fuck off" part.