Bengals1181 Posted January 21, 2012 Report Share Posted January 21, 2012 [quote name='Enon Bengal' timestamp='1327182503' post='1091013'] True - there are no guarantees in life. Your odds are probably better with a college degree though. [/quote] no doubt, but I'm sure there's a number of college graduates working at McDonald's today on minimum wage, and not because they want to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enon Bengal Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1327182770' post='1091016'] no doubt, but I'm sure there's a number of college graduates working at McDonald's today on minimum wage, and not because they want to be. [/quote] You're probably right - but there are probably 10,000x that many college graduates that earn a good living, own homes, and raise families. If I was a young person and wanted to do all those things and had to choose between going to college or not going to college, I'd say going to college was the way to reach my goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 In NJ, we are a hub of research and development, pharmaceutical industry and biotech. In my company, when an entry level position opens up (read: a spot for a recent grad with a Biology degree ready to learn on the job) we get upwards of 40 applications from PhD's with 20 years of industry research and pages of publications to their name...on top of the tons of applications from every experience level in between. The days of bootstrapping yourself as a rule of thumb are over. Sure it can happen, but there are plenty of people out there who have put in their time, made serious contributions to the world with their hard work, and are just shit out of luck. For those that disagree...what is the appropriate route for a protein purification scientist who finished 8 years of graduate studies in 1985, has been working 50 hour weeks ever since while providing for the family of 5, and now can't even get hired at 25% of their previous salary in the only field they've known for three decades to pull themselves up by the bootstraps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 Newt Gingrich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1327220368' post='1091111'] Newt Gingrich [/quote] [IMG]http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b226/lodge308/slapface-1.gif[/IMG] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted January 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 With Mitt Romney I see Campaign Finance becoming even worse. With Newt and Paul I see very few programs for the poor and crime becoming even worse. Things like welfare might be the biggest deterrants to crime . With Santorum I see society becoming worse. There is not one republican who makes any sense remaining. Most of us are moderates who lean socially to the left and fiscally to the right. There is no one that represents that. Everyone hates the lobbyists and the money in government but there is not candidate who really represents that either. The closest thing is probably McCain 2000 or maybe Chris Christie but I dont know a ton about him. All you would need is someone to be willing to go against the money they can get from big business and they would win the election. Be a moderate and you win. The crazies on both side yell the loudest and represent the fewest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 22, 2012 Report Share Posted January 22, 2012 I'd love Bernie Sanders, wont happen though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enon Bengal Posted January 23, 2012 Report Share Posted January 23, 2012 [quote name='Squirrlnutz' timestamp='1327209062' post='1091099'] In NJ, we are a hub of research and development, pharmaceutical industry and biotech. In my company, when an entry level position opens up (read: a spot for a recent grad with a Biology degree ready to learn on the job) we get upwards of 40 applications from PhD's with 20 years of industry research and pages of publications to their name...on top of the tons of applications from every experience level in between. The days of bootstrapping yourself as a rule of thumb are over. Sure it can happen, but there are plenty of people out there who have put in their time, made serious contributions to the world with their hard work, and are just shit out of luck. For those that disagree...what is the appropriate route for a protein purification scientist who finished 8 years of graduate studies in 1985, has been working 50 hour weeks ever since while providing for the family of 5, and now can't even get hired at 25% of their previous salary in the only field they've known for three decades to pull themselves up by the bootstraps? [/quote] So what does a young person do? This more than a rhetorical question. I have a daughter that graduates high school in the spring and a son that is a high school freshman. Do they sit around and wring their hands and tell themselves, 'boy, it sure is bad out there,' or do they try to make something of themselves? I still think 'to earn more you need to learn more' is as true today as it was in any generation before. Go to college, learn a trade, or make a living from your God given gifts. You guys can cherry pick examples of where it didn't work out for someone you know. Life is hard, you won't get any arguement from me. Real unemployment is probably closer to 20% than the 10% you hear about in the media and probably getting worse than better. That still means 80% are employed and probably earning what their worth. If my kids throw themselves in with the 20% before they even try, I'll slap 'em silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 [quote name='Enon Bengal' timestamp='1327362992' post='1091624'] So what does a young person do? This more than a rhetorical question. I have a daughter that graduates high school in the spring and a son that is a high school freshman. Do they sit around and wring their hands and tell themselves, 'boy, it sure is bad out there,' or do they try to make something of themselves? I still think 'to earn more you need to learn more' is as true today as it was in any generation before. Go to college, learn a trade, or make a living from your God given gifts. You guys can cherry pick examples of where it didn't work out for someone you know. Life is hard, you won't get any arguement from me. Real unemployment is probably closer to 20% than the 10% you hear about in the media and probably getting worse than better. That still means 80% are employed and probably earning what their worth. If my kids throw themselves in with the 20% before they even try, I'll slap 'em silly. [/quote] What they do is be citizens and write their representatives to talk about how our system is broken and needs to be fixed, they organize around people who want to make things more fair for everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BengalRep85-9 Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1327365149' post='1091629'] What they do is be citizens and write their representatives to talk about how our system is broken and needs to be fixed, they organize around people who want to make things more fair for everyone else. [/quote] I don't think the system is broken. It's doing exactly what it was designed to do, transfer wealth from the bottom up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 [quote name='BengalRep85-9' timestamp='1327370688' post='1091641'] I don't think the system is broken. It's doing exactly what it was designed to do, transfer wealth from the bottom up. [/quote] Ok broken for the average citizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrlnutz Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 [quote name='Enon Bengal' timestamp='1327362992' post='1091624'] So what does a young person do? This more than a rhetorical question. I have a daughter that graduates high school in the spring and a son that is a high school freshman. Do they sit around and wring their hands and tell themselves, 'boy, it sure is bad out there,' or do they try to make something of themselves? I still think 'to earn more you need to learn more' is as true today as it was in any generation before. Go to college, learn a trade, or make a living from your God given gifts. You guys can cherry pick examples of where it didn't work out for someone you know. Life is hard, you won't get any arguement from me. Real unemployment is probably closer to 20% than the 10% you hear about in the media and probably getting worse than better. That still means 80% are employed and probably earning what their worth. If my kids throw themselves in with the 20% before they even try, I'll slap 'em silly. [/quote] I didn't want to give the impression that people shouldn't try, but rather times are so bad that even people who fit the bill of hardworking, boot-strapper have no recourse these days. That, following Jamie's suggestion, people should be aware of the current state of affairs. Aware that our economic system, our tax system, our election system does not favor the laid-off plumber who is working 10 hour days for cash raking mulch. The phrase "you're not working hard enough" should not be used as a blanket response to the unemployment epidemic. People can continuously try to pull themselves up by the bootstraps while acknowledging this and making an effort to voice their opinion against the establishment. Far too often people on the "work harder" side of the fence conflate frustration with the broken system for lazy people looking for hand outs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyInDC Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 in bad economic times, people increasingly turn to crime. So I guess down-on-their-luck people could do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 I graduated college this time last year. I had a good job but not in my field of study, nor did I have any job experience in my field. So what did I do in this incredibly harsh economic time? I took a temporary job that gave me the experience I was lacking. Now I am on the right career track and things are finally starting too look good. So my point is, pulling yourself up by the bootstrap is indeed possible. But you have to smart, hard working, and willing to take a risk to get where you want. Sure as shit, no one is going to just hand you what you need in life. Starting from the bottom of an industry and working your way up is indeed still the way to get where you want in life in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 [quote name='bengalrick' timestamp='1327410723' post='1091690'] I graduated college this time last year. I had a good job but not in my field of study, nor did I have any job experience in my field. So what did I do in this incredibly harsh economic time? I took a temporary job that gave me the experience I was lacking. Now I am on the right career track and things are finally starting too look good. So my point is, pulling yourself up by the bootstrap is indeed possible. But you have to smart, hard working, and willing to take a risk to get where you want. Sure as shit, no one is going to just hand you what you need in life. Starting from the bottom of an industry and working your way up is indeed still the way to get where you want in life in my opinion. [/quote] You work in the same industry I do. Not necessarily a good example because there are jobs a plenty in this industry, however at the same time not everyone is cut out to do this stuff. During our best times as a nation we had a strong manufacturing sector, most people did ok for themselves because those jobs are something most can do, and with union wadges it helped a generation put food on the table and an economy thrive. We dont have that sector to our economy anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1327414258' post='1091709'] You work in the same industry I do. Not necessarily a good example because there are jobs a plenty in this industry, however at the same time not everyone is cut out to do this stuff. During our best times as a nation we had a strong manufacturing sector, most people did ok for themselves because those jobs are something most can do, and with union wadges it helped a generation put food on the table and an economy thrive. We dont have that sector to our economy anymore. [/quote] No kidding. I just started a new job. When I started applying, I was fearing the worst as you read the news stories about people putting in hundreds of applications and waiting for months without so much as a call back. On a whim one Sunday afternoon, I put in 2 resumes for two job postings that looked promising. Both called to set up interviews on the following Tuesday. At the end of the interview I told my now boss that I was stunned to have gotten an interview so soon. He said "Had this been a food & beverage position, or a janitor posting, I'd have 700 applications. But with what you do, I might get 15, and then once I weed through the ones that are lying I'd have 5, so here you are". Rick, there are very few people in this country that can do what you, Jamie, and I can do; so what is your solution? Is everyone to just learn software development or enterprise virtualization? Just go grab a 6-year-old copy of "Learn Java in 24 Hours" and get to coding? And what if the poor soul in question is 50 or older? As Lucid once aptly stated "No one wants grandpa fixing their computer". Good luck even getting an intern or volunteer shot with that much grey hair. When the founding fathers referred to all men being "equal" they were not envisioning equality of [b]outcome[/b], but the equality of [b]opportunity[/b]. It is the latter which is quickly disappearing in this country... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 What kind of job could your standard 50 year old with obsolete skills do that would justify: 1. A salary good enough to support himself. 2. Giving him benefits (he is old, he will need medical insurance). Then do this times several million. Just give me an example of this type of job. It just seems to me that it wouldn't exist. Did these people have a place in the manufacturing era? Can the manufacturing era even be brought back to America? I don't think so, not since you opened Pandora's box of slave labor in other countries. If they come back, it will only be to locale's that do not allow unions which means shitty pay and probably no benefits. I guess something would be better than nothing though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 Its going to take us dragging Llyod Blankfien into the streets and stoning him to change things. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bengalrick Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 [quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1327415268' post='1091713'] Rick, there are very few people in this country that can do what you, Jamie, and I can do; so what is your solution? Is everyone to just learn software development or enterprise virtualization? Just go grab a 6-year-old copy of "Learn Java in 24 Hours" and get to coding? And what if the poor soul in question is 50 or older? As Lucid once aptly stated "No one wants grandpa fixing their computer". Good luck even getting an intern or volunteer shot with that much grey hair. When the founding fathers referred to all men being "equal" they were not envisioning equality of [b]outcome[/b], but the equality of [b]opportunity[/b]. It is the latter which is quickly disappearing in this country...[/quote] I had my degree but had no experience. I put in around 30 or so realistic applications since I graduated. I have had maybe 7 interviews last year. I got 1 of those jobs, which ended up being a temporary position. I took it with the intention of filling in the gap that my career building had, which was experience. I agree that we are lucky in the industry that we three picked b/c jobs are out there, but even with all this extra jobs, I really, really struggled getting my foot in the door. My point isn't to say that there are so many jobs that there is no excuse to not have a job... My point is that if you are in a similar situation as I was (educated with no experience) your best chance is to do something similar as I did, and to me that is "pulling yourself up from your bootstraps." As far as solutions, to look at it as a politicians does in big picture, I can think of a shit load of things that should work and I can start laying them out if that is what you are looking for. I would start by making higher education available at no charge to anyone willing to go and keep a reasonable grade. However, if you are individual in a similar position as I was/am, by all means write your senators and leaders to change things on a macro sense, but also build up experience, consider going to a different industry/back to school, and/or starting from the bottom of that industry. I mean I look back 5 years ago and I had no education and no experience. I might have had the technical mind to do the work I do now, but I was in the same type of position as the people looking for manufacturing jobs you are talking about. Hell, I was basically doing that for the last 5 years while going to school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enon Bengal Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1327416394' post='1091722'] [b]What kind of job could your standard 50 year old with obsolete skills do that would justify:[/b] 1. A salary good enough to support himself. 2. Giving him benefits (he is old, he will need medical insurance). Then do this times several million. Just give me an example of this type of job. It just seems to me that it wouldn't exist. Did these people have a place in the manufacturing era? Can the manufacturing era even be brought back to America? I don't think so, not since you opened Pandora's box of slave labor in other countries. If they come back, it will only be to locale's that do not allow unions which means shitty pay and probably no benefits. I guess something would be better than nothing though. [/quote] Same question and gets back to the original point of the thread, (I think.) What skill set does a twenty year old have to demand a $20 an hour wage in this economy? There are manufactoring jobs coming back to America. The tsunami that hit Japan hit the auto makers hard by not being able to get parts. I know MCFA is in the process of moving a big chunk of their parts production back to the States. Your point is valid becuase I doubt very few will of those jobs will end up in Ohio. The manufacturing jobs left this state but the unions didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 [quote name='Enon Bengal' timestamp='1327427870' post='1091774'] Same question and gets back to the original point of the thread, (I think.) What skill set does a twenty year old have to demand a $20 an hour wage in this economy? There are manufactoring jobs coming back to America. The tsunami that hit Japan hit the auto makers hard by not being able to get parts. I know MCFA is in the process of moving a big chunk of their parts production back to the States. Your point is valid becuase I doubt very few will of those jobs will end up in Ohio. The manufacturing jobs left this state but the unions didn't. [/quote] To my knowledge none of those "jobs coming back" are at union wages. I think there is a real disconnect for some in understanding productive economies work from the bottom up rather than the top down. Neoliberalism needs to die. Trickle down doesnt work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted January 24, 2012 Report Share Posted January 24, 2012 [quote name='Enon Bengal' timestamp='1327427870' post='1091774'] Same question and gets back to the original point of the thread, (I think.) What skill set does a twenty year old have to demand a $20 an hour wage in this economy? There are manufactoring jobs coming back to America. The tsunami that hit Japan hit the auto makers hard by not being able to get parts. I know MCFA is in the process of moving a big chunk of their parts production back to the States. Your point is valid becuase I doubt very few will of those jobs will end up in Ohio. The manufacturing jobs left this state but the unions didn't. [/quote] A young healthy 20 year old is a lot more appealing than a broken down 60 year old. I would think on equal footing, I'd pick the young guy for a manufacturing-ish job. He would have a higher output. I'd pay them shit, but at least he'd have a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.