|Elflocko| Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1351716722' post='1176001'] Because religion is one of many red herrings in any election used to curry favor with people just to get their votes.... This is entire argument is a microcosm of why I hate politics.... A news "source", whether right or left leaning will report conjecture and drive it home so people that lean the same way as they do will believe it as fact. Then they will hang on it because they want their party to win an election. We as a people are duped by news sources into thinking that things that don't matter really do... We become distracted by these things while the things that do matter just fly right over our heads.... I have never voted for a democrat for president in my life....and to be honest I don't think I have for any election of any office. I am not enamored with Obama, but I will be voting for him this time because I think the Republican party gives far less of a shit about me then the Democratic party.... I pray one day Elizabeth Warren runs for president..... [url="http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/420540/october-24-2012/nonstop-libya-gate-questions"]http://www.colbertna...-gate-questions[/url] I know this is about Libya, but it makes my point that 24 hour news channels are one of the biggest scourges of American society today...... They need to fill 24 hours... They state a ton of fucked up opinions and a lot of people take them as fact because they are on a "news" channel..... "if you put a statement in the form of a question, is that journalism? Welcome back the times of yellow journalism.... /end rant. [/quote] It's been interesting (and a bit gratifying) to watch your metamorphosis over the last 4 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted October 31, 2012 Report Share Posted October 31, 2012 Government and elections have been wearing everyone down. Voters have been burned so many times, that they have become quite cynical. How does someone go about creating a federal government that Presidents and the like, have to be held more accountable for the things they promise versus what they really do. Make the impeachment process to include more factors? Shorten the length of term of elected officials? Obama ran on a platform that if the troops in Iraq weren't already home he would start working on doing it as soon as he took office. Unfortunately, once Obama took office, he sent MORE troops to Iraq and the number of troops that were at it's highest point of any time during the war. Yeah, Republicans screw up too, but that isn't the point of this. New legislation would affect everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1351727311' post='1176036'] Obama ran on a platform that if the troops in Iraq weren't already home he would start working on doing it as soon as he took office. Unfortunately, once Obama took office, he sent MORE troops to Iraq and the number of troops that were at it's highest point of any time during the war. [/quote] Repeating that shit isn't going to make it any more true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 [quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1351754948' post='1176135'] Repeating that shit isn't going to make it any more true. [/quote] Part of the reason I say it so much is because people were blinded by Obama taking office, wasn't watching what was really going on. Your statement is proof of that. No matter how many resources, articles, and Youtube speeches I supply, people that are in your boat, still not recognizing it as true. The other reason I brought it up again, is because I'm pointing out a way to keep politicians fairly honest. There needs to be something deterring them. Maybe some fines? taking away Electoral College votes in the election would be a pretty unique one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Lewdog, why can't you understand that Obama didn't lie about that promise? Why don't you focus on the actual shit he lied about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Tigers Johnson| Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 [quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1351721565' post='1176020'] It's been interesting (and a bit gratifying) to watch your metamorphosis over the last 4 years... [/quote] I am not sure it is a total metamorphosis by me.... I have always been pretty close to the middle on most issues... I think it is a little bit me and a little bit of the democratic party shifting closer to me... followed by the Republican party shifting so far away and going to a place I can't go.... I am a firefighter/emt-b in a very poor part of my city... I see a ton of despair.. The hardest part of my job is seeing kids that are in bad situations that you know don't stand a chance because of living conditions and very poor parenting which is probably part of a cycle that some how has to be broken... but how.... I really don't believe it is from trickle down economics and cutting education.... I once believed in trickle down economics and it sounds great in theory, but it requires good businessmen to go against there base instinct of producing a product with the least amount of overhead at the largest amount of profit. It requires the CEO's and owners not to becompletely profilt driven and be noble enough to create jobs. They don't care about jobs... they care about profit for the most part. Trickle down economics and a rose colored glasses world is a great theory... That and Republicans all out war on Unions has lost me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1351758455' post='1176141'] Lewdog, why can't you understand that Obama didn't lie about that promise? Why don't you focus on the actual shit he lied about? [/quote] Why do you continue to see what is front of you face? Obama promised if he was put in office he would bring the troops home immediately. Instead he sent more troops over there. Making the troops in the region higher than it had ever been before in the Bush Jr. Administration. Obama then promised a 16 month withdraw plan to being the troops home. That never happened, in fact he changed his plan to bringing all the troops home by the end of 2011. Once again that didn't happen. He kept an a large number of troops at the Embassy in Iraq, and moved a bunch of troops into Kuwait and Afghanistan. He stated that Kuwait would be a staging area for U.S. troops in case they were needed once again in Iraq. By far, not all the troops were sent home to their families. In fact upon Jamie's request I posted an article showing the First Battalion Mechanized unit left Iraq into Kuwait. I also believe one of the articles I posted said there was a Communications group that did the same thing. I've posted article after article, and video after video about this. Why do you keep on saying he didn't break a promise? Provide some information or details to your argument. Otherwise I'll have to believe you are trolling at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1351800138' post='1176256'] I am not sure it is a total metamorphosis by me.... I have always been pretty close to the middle on most issues... I think it is a little bit me and a little bit of the democratic party shifting closer to me... followed by the Republican party shifting so far away and going to a place I can't go.... I am a firefighter/emt-b in a very poor part of my city... I see a ton of despair.. The hardest part of my job is seeing kids that are in bad situations that you know don't stand a chance because of living conditions and very poor parenting which is probably part of a cycle that some how has to be broken... but how.... I really don't believe it is from trickle down economics and cutting education.... I once believed in trickle down economics and it sounds great in theory, but it requires good businessmen to go against there base instinct of producing a product with the least amount of overhead at the largest amount of profit. It requires the CEO's and owners not to becompletely profilt driven and be noble enough to create jobs. They don't care about jobs... they care about profit for the most part. Trickle down economics and a rose colored glasses world is a great theory... That and Republicans all out war on Unions has lost me.... [/quote] Well a big fault of trickle down economics is that encourages the government to help big business with tax percentages that are insane. Then instead of distributing their wealth to their employees and investors, they write a big check to themselves and other board members. Then you have the small business owner who can't compete with the big guys, because not only are they making money through their business, but can ask the government to step in and help them from going bankrupt...while still writing themselves big bonuses. These big companies don't not only increase their workforce, they shrink it and try to make it so they have less employees. So what does this mean? It means a larger gap in between the upper class and the middle class. All because Big businesses are so greedy that they don't use the government money for what it was intended for. The government needs to be doing more of what they did during this last recession. Keep more control over Corporate bonuses, especially from companies that receiver government funds. They also need to keep a better eye on where government money that is lent to these businesses ends up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 [quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1351800138' post='1176256'] I am not sure it is a total metamorphosis by me.... I have always been pretty close to the middle on most issues... I think it is a little bit me and a little bit of the democratic party shifting closer to me... followed by the Republican party shifting so far away and going to a place I can't go.... I am a firefighter/emt-b in a very poor part of my city... I see a ton of despair.. The hardest part of my job is seeing kids that are in bad situations that you know don't stand a chance because of living conditions and very poor parenting which is probably part of a cycle that some how has to be broken... but how.... I really don't believe it is from trickle down economics and cutting education.... I once believed in trickle down economics and it sounds great in theory, but it requires good businessmen to go against there base instinct of producing a product with the least amount of overhead at the largest amount of profit. It requires the CEO's and owners not to becompletely profilt driven and be noble enough to create jobs. They don't care about jobs... they care about profit for the most part. Trickle down economics and a rose colored glasses world is a great theory... That and Republicans all out war on Unions has lost me.... [/quote] My cousin who is a cop has moved away from the Republican Party as well because of their attack on his Union Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 [quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1351800826' post='1176260'] Well a big fault of trickle down economics is that encourages the government to help big business with tax percentages that are insane. Then instead of distributing their wealth to their employees and investors, they write a big check to themselves and other board members. Then you have the small business owner who can't compete with the big guys, because not only are they making money through their business, but can ask the government to step in and help them from going bankrupt...while still writing themselves big bonuses. These big companies don't not only increase their workforce, they shrink it and try to make it so they have less employees. So what does this mean? It means a larger gap in between the upper class and the middle class. All because Big businesses are so greedy that they don't use the government money for what it was intended for. The government needs to be doing more of what they did during this last recession. Keep more control over Corporate bonuses, especially from companies that receiver government funds. They also need to keep a better eye on where government money that is lent to these businesses ends up. [/quote] Or invest that money in people who will end up spending it on those businesses anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Unions are kinda gay though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1351803910' post='1176286'] Or invest that money in people who will end up spending it on those businesses anyway [/quote] The argument to that would be the amount of risk the government would be taking on, by giving large portions of money to people and businesses that don't have a long track record. It's much easier to count on and believe your money is safe loaning/giving your money to Burger King, than giving it to some mom and pa pizza place that has only been around a year. That's often why the government will not do loans to small businesses, but instead make deals with banks that fund them. The government also has free apprentice programs where you can partner up with someone that owns a business and they will show you how to scout locations, draw up a business plan to show the bank, and how properly manage and finance your business without letting your personal assets become part of your business assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1351803956' post='1176287'] Unions are kinda gay though [/quote] Honestly I don't care for Unions either. At one point I was part of AFCME. It was combination of a lot of groups including teachers and correction officers and more. Our union reps spent more time defending idiots that got caught sleeping at work and various other crap, than negotiating for better pay and benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Unions should have expiration dates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 Unions are the lifeblood of the middle class and sadly probably the only thing that will return the middle class to what it once was Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1351811074' post='1176341'] Unions are the lifeblood of the middle class and sadly probably the only thing that will return the middle class to what it once was [/quote] Do you really think that? Do you think Unions are the only information link between the middle and upper class? Do you really think Unions give a rat's ass about who they represent? I've watched with my own eyes Jamie as a regular guy got elected as a union rep, and how a year later all the people he represented were hung out to dry by that guy, as he enjoyed perks that were given to him. There really is no span between the classes where people remain the same ethically and morally as they transition from one class to another. The only thing that will help fix this economy is to see all classes represented by a government that has an equal share of the classes. This isn't going to happen. There is absolutely no way in hell, a Harvard graduate with a net worth in the millions of dollars, can relate to a guy working as a janitor at a elementary school. So, yeah basically this is the bull we are left riding on, until it bucks us and you see a collapse in the economy, leading to a collapse in society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 History proves that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted November 1, 2012 Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1351813558' post='1176355'] History proves that. [/quote] History has proven what? There is a larger divide between the classes than there ever has before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Um, I know lots of people who are in the middle class who arne't in unions. I don't know anyone that is a union that is even richer than me, they are all poor cause they don't have regular work right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 Since I know you are of the TL;DR ilk sois I have a pretty graph for you.... [img]http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/unionincome.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 But to follow up on TJ's point about trickle down economics.... (and for O&B who has tried to pawn off the false equivalency of HP being as bad as FoxNews, the report itself is in the link provided.) [url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/01/congressional-research-service_n_2059156.html"]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/01/congressional-research-service_n_2059156.html[/url] [quote] [b] Congressional Research Service Report On Tax Cuts For Wealthy Suppressed By GOP[/b] [color=#333333][font=Georgia, Century, Times, serif][size=4] The New York Times [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/business/questions-raised-on-withdrawal-of-congressional-research-services-report-on-tax-rates.html?ref=business&_r=1&"]reported on Thursday[/url] that Senate Republicans applied pressure to the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service (CRS) in September, successfully persuading it to withdraw a report finding that lowering marginal tax rates for the wealthiest Americans had no effect on economic growth or job creation.[/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=Georgia, Century, Times, serif][size=4] "The pressure applied to the research service comes amid a broader Republican effort to raise questions about research and statistics that were once trusted as nonpartisan and apolitical," the Times reported. Democrats in Congress, however, [url="http://www.dpcc.senate.gov/?p=blog&id=193"]have resurfaced the report[/url] and published it in full. It can be read below.[/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=Georgia, Century, Times, serif][size=4] Republicans told the Times they had issues with the tone, wording and scope of the report, but they clearly objected most strongly to its findings, which undermine the governing fiscal philosophy of the party, that tax cuts for the wealthy will spur growth and benefit everybody.[/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=Georgia, Century, Times, serif][size=4] GOP officials told The Times that the decision by the CRS came after a cooperative discussion, but Democrats have suggested that the move is part of a broader effort by Republicans to squelch legitimate research that runs counter to their economic principles.[/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=Georgia, Century, Times, serif][size=4] The CRS report, by researcher Thomas Hungerford, concluded:[/size][/font][/color][indent]The results of the analysis suggest that changes over the past 65 years in the top marginal tax rate and the top capital gains tax rate do not appear correlated with economic growth. The reduction in the top tax rates appears to be uncorrelated with saving, investment, and productivity growth. The top tax rates appear to have little or no relation to the size of the economic pie. However, the top tax rate reductions appear to be associated with the increasing concentration of income at the top of the income distribution. As measured by IRS data, the share of income accruing to the top 0.1% of U.S. families increased from 4.2% in 1945 to 12.3% by 2007 before falling to 9.2% due to the 2007-2009 recession. At the same time, the average tax rate paid by the top 0.1% fell from over 50% in 1945 to about 25% in 2009. Tax policy could have a relation to how the economic pie is sliced—lower top tax rates may be associated with greater income disparities.[/indent] [color=#333333][font=Georgia, Century, Times, serif][size=4] Rep. Sandy Levin of Michigan, the top Democrat on the Ways and Means Committee, demanded the CRS explain its decision. "The impartial research and advice provided by CRS experts informs and strengthens the work of Congress. However, this valuable role hinges on the impartiality of CRS analysts and their freedom from political pressure. As with other non-partisan institutions, subjecting CRS analysts to political considerations undermines the legislative process and the American people’s trust in it," Levin wrote in [url="http://democrats.waysandmeans.house.gov/sites/democrats.waysandmeans.house.gov/files/DirectorMazanec.pdf"]a letter to CRS.[/url] "Therefore I was deeply disturbed to hear that Mr. Hungerford’s report was taken down in response to political pressure from Congressional Republicans who had ideological objections to the report’s factual findings and conclusion."[/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=Georgia, Century, Times, serif][size=4] [i](Scroll down for Hungerford's response in the UPDATE.)[/i][/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=Georgia, Century, Times, serif][size=4] The report is extensive, but the reasoning behind its conclusion is fairly straightforward. The richest Americans are the least likely to spend extra money they get as a result of a tax cut, and are more likely to save it or invest it offshore. Those on the lower end of the economic spectrum, meanwhile, are the most likely to spend transfer payments they receive from the government.[/size][/font][/color][color=#333333][font=Georgia, Century, Times, serif][size=4] A [url="http://www.dpcc.senate.gov/?p=blog&id=193"]release[/url] by the Democratic Policy & Communications Center on Wednesday accused Republicans of attempting to bury the report because its "findings undermine a central tenet of Republican party orthodoxy on taxes." They included a copy of the original report, which is available below:[/size][/font][/color] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1351815594' post='1176371'] Since I know you are of the TL;DR ilk sois I have a pretty graph for you.... [img]http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/unionincome.jpg[/img] [/quote] I don't buy it. Correlation <> causality. Lots of other factors are more significant, such as an explosion of population and increase of women in the workforce. Those two factors alone increase the bottom of the class brackets. Unions feel pretty gay to me. They don't create jobs. That's our problem at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewdog Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1351816788' post='1176382'] I don't buy it. Correlation <> causality. Lots of other factors are more significant, such as an explosion of population and increase of women in the workforce. Those two factors alone increase the bottom of the class brackets. Unions feel pretty gay to me. They don't create jobs. That's our problem at the moment. [/quote] I have found some of this to be correct. Union leaders rarely create jobs. More often than not, they are usually debating to keep jobs or at least make it so they don't lose theirs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 We should start harvesting the homeless as a cheap source of protein. I bet that would create a TON of jobs. Sorry, I meant "jerbs". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted November 2, 2012 Report Share Posted November 2, 2012 i like this modest proposal t-dub Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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