oldschooler Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 From 2000-2008, 65,581 homicides were committed with a Handgun. (51 percent) 86,112 (counting the numbers above) were committed with a gun. (66 percent of all Homicides) 43,629 were committed with some other type of weapon. Lynyrd Skynyrd said it best, "Hand guns were made for killing. Ain't no good for nothing else." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Guns deaths in a year, per Country. United States; 11,127 Germany; 381 France; 255 Canada; 165 United Kingdom; 68 Australia; 65 Japan; 39 So, USA = 11,127 6 other Countries combined = 973 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1355581283' post='1194149'] Guns deaths in a year, per Country. United States; 11,127 Germany; 381 France; 255 Canada; 165 United Kingdom; 68 Australia; 65 Japan; 39 So, USA = 11,127 6 other Countries combined = 973 [/quote] also saw a stat yesterday that there's been 31 school shootings in the US since Columbine. There's only been 13 in the rest of the world over that time. [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1355548957' post='1194086'] And usually your one of mine, but in times of great sorrow alot of folks turn to their faith to make sense of it all. I'm not opposed to talking about this stuff at all, I just think its kind of soon. [/quote] so don't participate in the discussion? Let us morally inferior posters discuss it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Couple of things about this story that I think are relevant to any gun control debate (from CNN): [quote] Three weapons were recovered from the school on Friday: a semi-automatic [b].223 caliber rifle made by Bushmaster was found in a car[/b] in the school parking lot, and two pistols made by Glock and a Sig Sauer were found with suspected gunman Lanza's body, a law enforcement source said previously. [b]The weapons were legally purchased by Lanza's mother,[/b] said the official, who was not authorized to release details of the case to the media. [/quote] 1. It's possible he took the rifle back out to the car for some reason, but at this point it would appear he was using two pistols. 2. Chances are his mom would have passed any background checks that could have been in place. This isn't meant to be an argument for/against, as I am not opposed to the idea of reinstating some kind of restriction on military-grade firearms and/or background checks. However I do think that if we're going to use this incident as a springboard for discussing gun control, which I think is a reasonable reaction, that it should be based in fact. Those facts suggest that neither of the measures most widely suggested would have prevented this from happening. The other thing I would point out is that "gun deaths per capita stats" from other countries are not 100% relevant to our own. There are far, far more guns in private hands than in any of those other countries. I would guess that there are more than all of them [i]combined[/i]. My point being that legislation is not a definite cause of fewer gun-related deaths in those countries, but more likely, the much lower number of guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1355581715' post='1194152'] so don't participate in the discussion? Let us morally inferior posters discuss it. [/quote] don't be a douche all I'm saying is if there's a time and place for these discussions and that time in place should have been a long time ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1355587341' post='1194184'] don't be a douche all I'm saying is if there's a time and place for these discussions and that time in place should have been a long time ago [/quote] the expression "better late than never" comes to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1355587393' post='1194185'] the expression "better late than never" comes to mind. [/quote] Who said anything about never? Really I know you have this need to argue with me, this really isnt the time. But its a day later so lets talk about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1355587910' post='1194187'] Who said anything about never? Really I know you have this need to argue with me, this really isnt the time. But its a day later so lets talk about it. [/quote] I have no interest in arguing with you (you really need to get over yourself). But if you don't like the discussion, stay out of the topic. It's a simple concept. You're not the morality judge of what the rest of us deem acceptable to discuss. Let everyone else discuss the topic and join in once you feel its appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1355588113' post='1194192'] amazing [/quote] look man, initially I was right there with you. I wasn't going to make it about guns so that the victims weren't just glossed over. Lucid, MW, and others make a good point though. If we ignore the topic of gun control, which is very prevalent to the case, you're doing a disservice to the victims. There's some good discussion going on in this thread, and that should continue. There's no reason this thread can't be about the victims, and the issues that led to their death. If people don't feel comfortable participating, they don't have to. Most avoid the debate forum for that very reason. And yes, its the debate forum, for debating issues. I didn't participate, but out of curiousity, did people wait a day or two to discuss the issues after Wall Street made hundreds of thousands of people bankrupt? Discussing the issues doesn't mean the victims are forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Dude I never said to ignore it, not once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1355589094' post='1194195'] I didn't participate, but out of curiousity, did people wait a day or two to discuss the issues after Wall Street made hundreds of thousands of people bankrupt? [/quote] I don't know about that. But I can tell you that some people jumped on it with both feet about Political vitriol being the cause for the Gabby Gifford' shooting. And they didn't wait any time at all to jump to conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='oldschooler' timestamp='1355576548' post='1194124'] My heart is broken for the victims and their Families.[b] I can't help but think about Christmas presents all wrapped up[/b] for 20 little kids, that will never be opened. [/quote] WTF there are more important issues here than wasted xmas presents, plus probly some of the kids were jewish like me and don't have xmas presents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1355591078' post='1194198'] WTF there are more important issues here than wasted xmas presents, plus probly some of the kids were jewish like me and don't have xmas presents. [/quote] That breeze you just felt? That was the point, soaring over your head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldschooler Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='sois' timestamp='1355591078' post='1194198'] WTF there are more important issues here than wasted xmas presents, plus probly some of the kids were jewish like me and don't have xmas presents. [/quote] I'm not in the mood today. Or any other day for that matter ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 Another topic that needs discussed alongside gun control, or even more so in my opinion, is when are we going to address our broken mental health system in this country? Mental health treatment is often hard to obtain, inconsistent, and even when available there is a social stigma in this country against people with mental health issues. The one constant in these incidents has been deep-seeded psychological issues that were either not addressed or addressed incompletely or inconsistently. The mental health treatment infrastructure in this country is horribly broken and I really have no idea where to start in fixing it...[quote name='sois' timestamp='1355591078' post='1194198'] WTF there are more important issues here than wasted xmas presents, plus probly some of the kids were jewish like me and don't have xmas presents. [/quote] Uhm yeah. This topic? Not the place for that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1355596114' post='1194222'] Another topic that needs discussed alongside gun control, or even more so in my opinion, is when are we going to address our broken mental health system in this country? Mental health treatment is often hard to obtain, inconsistent, and even when available there is a social stigma in this country against people with mental health issues. The one constant in these incidents has been deep-seeded psychological issues that were either not addressed or addressed incompletely or inconsistently. The mental health treatment infrastructure in this country is horribly broken and I really have no idea where to start in fixing it... [/quote] Totally agree. It's not that I don't think people will still fall through the safety net at times, it's that right now there isn't much of one to begin with. Also worth noting that it would at least begin to address a wide range of problems beyond this one. My concern would be how to implement better mental health care without creating some sort of "thought police". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1355596114' post='1194222'] Another topic that needs discussed alongside gun control, or even more so in my opinion, is when are we going to address our broken mental health system in this country? Mental health treatment is often hard to obtain, inconsistent, and even when available there is a social stigma in this country against people with mental health issues. The one constant in these incidents has been deep-seeded psychological issues that were either not addressed or addressed incompletely or inconsistently. The mental health treatment infrastructure in this country is horribly broken and I really have no idea where to start in fixing it... Uhm yeah. This topic? Not the place for that... [/quote] Where to start should be treating mental health like you would diabetes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1355597373' post='1194229'] Totally agree. It's not that I don't think people will still fall through the safety net at times, it's that right now there isn't much of one to begin with. Also worth noting that it would at least begin to address a wide range of problems beyond this one. My concern would be how to implement better mental health care without creating some sort of "thought police". [/quote] No safety net? It's not that difficult to get connected to a counselor, psychologist or social worker. Anyone here could get connected to someone by next week if you needed to. There are emergency mental health facilities in large cities all over the country and where there aren't there are emergency health care facilities that can assess at the very least. Underfunded. Yes. Compare what a nurse makes to a counselor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 the stigmata of mental health is another issue to look at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1355603599' post='1194251'] No safety net? It's not that difficult to get connected to a counselor, psychologist or social worker. Anyone here could get connected to someone by next week if you needed to. There are emergency mental health facilities in large cities all over the country and where there aren't there are emergency health care facilities that can assess at the very least. Underfunded. Yes. Compare what a nurse makes to a counselor. [/quote] Yeah you're right, mental health care is affordable, high quality, and available to all. Shouldn't you be off trolling the football forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1355604381' post='1194256'] the stigmata of mental health is another issue to look at [/quote] Stigmata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1355606394' post='1194265'] Yeah you're right, mental health care is affordable, high quality, and available to all. Shouldn't you be off trolling the football forum? [/quote] I am not sure you are making much sense or have much expertise in this area. We were talking about safety nets. Safety nets are usually in the case of triage and if it is long term you can get mental health care through many outlets. Usually if its severe and you can't pay there is a way for you to get care. I guess it depends on your definition of safety net. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 [quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1355608989' post='1194271'] I am not sure you are making much sense or have much expertise in this area. We were talking about safety nets. Safety nets are usually in the case of triage and if it is long term you can get mental health care through many outlets. Usually if its severe and you can't pay there is a way for you to get care. I guess it depends on your definition of safety net. [/quote] Sure bud, tell it to all the vets down at the homeless shelter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted December 15, 2012 Report Share Posted December 15, 2012 BBC is now quoting the chief medical examiner as saying the rifle was the primary weapon. "Assault weapons" are banned in the state of Connecticut. What actually constitutes an assault weapon isn't exactly clear, but Bushmaster is mentioned by name: http://www.jud.ct.gov/lawlib/law/firearms.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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