What should we be paying Andre? (He reportedly wants $9 million per year)

[Jamie_B]

This is still a message board, right?  People are free to discuss topics they want, or not discuss topics they don't, right?

 

So why spend so much time discussing something you clearly don't want to?

 

:)

 

 

I mean if people want to discuss if the sky is green or not, by all means have at it, but dont expect me not to think its silly.

[JBandJoeyV]

 
Can we stop with the "what if's" and deal with the reality. He's asking for 9, lets talk about that.

I'm saying he asking for 9. That's exactly what I'm taking about.

He is asking for 9 supposedly. What we don't know is 1. What the bengals think he is worth. 2. What other teams think he is worth.

Those are the two things that will go a long way into determining if we will resign him.

If the bengals value him around 8 or 9m and that's what he wants then hopefully we will retain him.

But on the other spectrum the bengals might only value him at 6-7 million. Hell 31 teams might value him at 6 million but if some random team is willing to over pay and give him that 9 then we would likely let him go if we only value him at 6-7.

I'm just discussing the different possible secnarios as we don't have enough facts on what we are willing to pay and what other teams are willing to pay him.

Is this really that confusing to anyone else?

[Jamie_B]

I'm saying he asking for 9. That's exactly what I'm taking about.

He is asking for 9 supposedly. What we don't know is 1. What the bengals think he is worth. 2. What other teams think he is worth.

Those are the two things that will go a long way into determining if we will resign him.

If the bengals value him around 8 or 9m and that's what he wants then hopefully we will retain him.

But on the other spectrum the bengals might only value him at 6-7 million. Hell 31 teams might value him at 6 million but if some random teams is willing to over pay and give him that 9 then we would likely let him go if we only value him at 6-7.

I'm just discussing the different possible secnarios as we don't have enough facts on what we are willing to pay and what other teams are willing to pay him.

Is this really that confusing to anyone else?

 

 

I'm not confused by it. It's this simple. It is extreamly rare that anyone gets more than what they are asking for, so lets not go to 10, is all I'm saying.

[happyrid]

 
 
I'm not confused by it. It's this simple. It is extreamly rare that anyone gets more than what they are asking for, so lets not go to 10, is all I'm saying.

That makes sense. If his asking price is 9M, then that is pretty much the max he might get. The question is probably how close to that 9M per year he can actually get on the open market and whether the Bengals would be willing to match whatever that high off ends up being.

There are some other FAs who are reportedly looking for certain amounts per year who are unlikely to get it. Jake Long will have a tough time getting 11M. Greg Jennings will have a tough time getting 12M. There was a report I mentioned in another topic that Laron Landry is looking for 6M but there was a report he probably wouldn't get more than 4M.

I still think the range on Andre is 7 to 9 million per year.

[Phatcat]

I vote we put Andre on Ebay and settle this once in for all. 

[USN Bengal]

I vote we put Andre on Ebay and settle this once in for all. 

If we sell him by the pound, we'll make a killing!

 

 

:ninja:

[Jamie_B]

That makes sense. If his asking price is 9M, then that is pretty much the max he might get. The question is probably how close to that 9M per year he can actually get on the open market and whether the Bengals would be willing to match whatever that high off ends up being.

There are some other FAs who are reportedly looking for certain amounts per year who are unlikely to get it. Jake Long will have a tough time getting 11M. Greg Jennings will have a tough time getting 12M. There was a report I mentioned in another topic that Laron Landry is looking for 6M but there was a report he probably wouldn't get more than 4M.

I still think the range on Andre is 7 to 9 million per year.

 

 

Agreed.

[JBandJoeyV]

 
 
I'm not confused by it. It's this simple. It is extreamly rare that anyone gets more than what they are asking for, so lets not go to 10, is all I'm saying.

God dude you are fixated on the ten mil thing. I said it one time. The rest of my posts have nothing to do with ten million. It has to do with 9 and whether or not we or anyone else thinks he is worth 9.

You can't really be this dense can you?

[JBandJoeyV]

That makes sense. If his asking price is 9M, then that is pretty much the max he might get. The question is probably how close to that 9M per year he can actually get on the open market and whether the Bengals would be willing to match whatever that high off ends up being.

There are some other FAs who are reportedly looking for certain amounts per year who are unlikely to get it. Jake Long will have a tough time getting 11M. Greg Jennings will have a tough time getting 12M. There was a report I mentioned in another topic that Laron Landry is looking for 6M but there was a report he probably wouldn't get more than 4M.

I still think the range on Andre is 7 to 9 million per year.

There's a big difference between 7 and 9 though. I don't know what the bengals max price is but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 7. And then it comes down to whether or not he can get 9 from someone else.

[Jamie_B]

There's a big difference between 7 and 9 though. I don't know what the bengals max price is but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 7. And then it comes down to whether or not he can get 9 from someone else.

 

you mean the bengals miht undervalue one of their guys? Shocking. :lol:

[Bengals1181]

You can't really be this dense can you?

 

 

why do you ask questions for which you already know the answer?

[JBandJoeyV]

 

you mean the bengals miht undervalue one of their guys? Shocking. :lol:

Which goes back to my point of if 31 teams value the guy at 7, including the bengals, and 1 team really needs a RT and gives him 9, is that one team over paying or are the bengals undervaluing? You seem to think no matter what any team gives Andre that that sets the market price. I don't think it works that way. Teams over pay for free agents every year, 9 mil might be over paying for Andre.

Too early to tell but it's very possible someone could over pay and we won't match. It doesn't mean we undervalued the guy though necessarily.

[scharm]

So you think we should pay him whatever he is able to get from another team even if they are over paying for him? And don't say if a team gives him 9M then that is for sure what he is worth because teams over pay for free agents every singe year. The majority of teams could think he is worth 7 but if one team thinks he's worth 9 then we should give him 9 to retain him? You don't think that's over paying?

Once again I'm not saying that the bengals value him at 7 maybe they do value him at 9. But if they don't and some other team does he will likely walk.

 

In a situation like that one where the spread is 2 mil (7 vs. 9).   I would have a problem with the bengals not having an offer on the table to bring him back.

 

I'd think in a senario like that you would be right to question the Bengals value determination.      Tackles are a franchise spot even RTs.   

 

Now that doesn't mean the Bengals couldn't recover but I seriously question what the fuck they are doing.  They had 6/7 tied up at that spot for Andre's previous contract.  They once franchised Stacey Andrews.  They also dropped money on Willie at time it proved he really had 1 true season of top play left.

 

How do you do that all these years and then get to a point and say, "Nah that extra 2 mil isn't worth it"  when you've had cap room committed to that spot for nearly a dedcade plus?

 

Wouldn't make sense to me.    Which why I'm confident that Andre gets done or the Bengals will be rolling out a signficant investment in a replacement. 

 

Can't remember who was it above that indicated Mike Brown won't pay for tackles.  That's 100% incorrect.  That's one thing he has proven to want to invest in.   Levi, Willie, Andre were all top 10 picks.   Then you had Free Agent acquisitions like Richmond Webb and John Jackson.  They franchised Stacey Andrews.

 

The last true hole ( intended starting wise) they had a tackle was Rod Jones and that was a talent misevaluation as they sunk some nice money into him as well.   They even carried a former Steeler first rounder to just be a back up (Jermain Stephens.)

 

If we lose Andre and the plan becomes Roland/Collins.  I'll be shocked and pissed as I don't think it will happen.  They've proven over a decade plus that tackle is important to them. 

 

. 

[Jamie_B]

God dude you are fixated on the ten mil thing. I said it one time. The rest of my posts have nothing to do with ten million. It has to do with 9 and whether or not we or anyone else thinks he is worth 9.

You can't really be this dense can you?

 

Let me rephrase so that I can be blunt on where I think you are coming from.

 

Throwing out the 10 number that nobody expects is even going to come up so that when he gets less but more than what the bengals might pay means that you can say the bengals didnt overpay because they didnt pay 10, when lets say he gets the 9, thus the bengals "were in the right" yet in reality 10 was never going to happen. It allows for a bait and switch to what the market actually valued him at vs what you overpriced him at, vs what the bengals did. This simply means your pushing his value higher than anyone else including himself so that the bengals come up looking like roses when they dont value him at that number but the market pays him more than they valued him at. Its defending the Bengals without coming outright and saying "Mike Brown is right"

 

All I am saying is stop being coy about it, your going to defend them regardless.

[Jamie_B]

In a situation like that one where the spread is 2 mil (7 vs. 9).   I would have a problem with the bengals not having an offer on the table to bring him back.

 

I'd think in a senario like that you would be right to question the Bengals value determination.      Tackles are a franchise spot even RTs.   

 

Now that doesn't mean the Bengals couldn't recover but I seriously question what the fuck they are doing.  They had 6/7 tied up at that spot for Andre's previous contract.  They once franchised Stacey Andrews.  They also dropped money on Willie at time it proved he really had 1 true season of top play left.

 

How do you do that all these years and then get to a point and say, "Nah that extra 2 mil isn't worth it"  when you've had cap room committed to that spot for nearly a dedcade plus?

 

Wouldn't make sense to me.    Which why I'm confident that Andre gets done or the Bengals will be rolling out a signficant investment in a replacement. 

 

Can't remember who was it above that indicated Mike Brown won't pay for tackles.  That's 100% incorrect.  That's one thing he has proven to want to invest in.   Levi, Willie, Andre were all top 10 picks.   Then you had Free Agent acquisitions like Richmond Webb and John Jackson.  They franchised Stacey Andrews.

 

The last true hole ( intended starting wise) they had a tackle was Rod Jones and that was a talent misevaluation as they sunk some nice money into him as well.   They even carried a former Steeler first rounder to just be a back up (Jermain Stephens.)

 

If we lose Andre and the plan becomes Roland/Collins.  I'll be shocked and pissed as I don't think it will happen.  They've proven over a decade plus that tackle is important to them. 

 

 

Question is who is a significant valued replacement?

[scharm]

Question is who is a significant valued replacement?

 

 People throw out this badge of honor that Andre "is the best RT in the league".    I think it's great, but it isn't a landslide by any means.

 

Willie Anderson he isn't.     In the NFL you pay on past performance for future results.

 

It may shock you but it wouldn't be hard for a rookie to come in and come damn close to Andre at RT.  Especially if you consider his past which you have to.  He has 43 games played in 4 years that's less than 11.      You've got several Free Agents with a number of playoff starts that probably have better pass pro skills than Andre that will be commanding 6/7 mil a season.

 

Quite frankly they had to do a fire drill his first two years to replace him and it was Roland/Collins.   Which by the way we all know that line was closer to top 10 vs. bottom 10. 

[Jamie_B]

 People throw out this badge of honor that Andre "is the best RT in the league".    I think it's great, but it isn't a landslide by any means.

 

Willie Anderson he isn't.     In the NFL you pay on past performance for future results.

 

It may shock you but it wouldn't be hard for a rookie to come in and come damn close to Andre at RT.  Especially if you consider his past which you have to.  He has 43 games played in 4 years that's less than 11.      You've got several Free Agents with a number of playoff starts that probably have better pass pro skills than Andre that will be commanding 6/7 mil a season.

 

Quite frankly they had to do a fire drill his first two years to replace him and it was Roland/Collins.   Which by the way we all know that line was closer to top 10 vs. bottom 10. 

 

 

I'd put him in the top 5 RTs right now.

 

Willie wasnt Willie till later in his career either. I think Andre can get there though.

 

 

Also a rookie isnt going to come in and pick up where Andre left off, that will take time. (Naw that line was mid-teir at best)

[eva4ben-gal]

 
 
I'd put him in the top 5 RTs right now.
 
Willie wasnt Willie till later in his career either. I think Andre can get there though.
 
 
Also a rookie isnt going to come in and pick up where Andre left off, that will take time. (Naw that line was mid-teir at best)

Willie also didn't derail his early years by getting too fat and never demanded more than he was worth until the very end. Smith will never be able to pass block like Willie but he could be great if he put in the work off the field and then let his performance write his checks for him. Instead it seems like he wants it the other way around and that just doesn't strike me as a player that will put in the work to maximize his potential. And as others have speculated, I'm not sure Andre even wants to be here.

[alleycat]

 People throw out this badge of honor that Andre "is the best RT in the league".    I think it's great, but it isn't a landslide by any means.

 

Willie Anderson he isn't.     In the NFL you pay on past performance for future results.

 

It may shock you but it wouldn't be hard for a rookie to come in and come damn close to Andre at RT.  Especially if you consider his past which you have to.  He has 43 games played in 4 years that's less than 11.      You've got several Free Agents with a number of playoff starts that probably have better pass pro skills than Andre that will be commanding 6/7 mil a season.

 

Quite frankly they had to do a fire drill his first two years to replace him and it was Roland/Collins.   Which by the way we all know that line was closer to top 10 vs. bottom 10. 

Wow, two posts where I completely agree with you.  Did someone hack your account? :)

 

The wrinkle with Andre is that, while being the top RT in football is questionable and we agree that his pass blocking is not in that league, I'd argue that his run blocking is simply elite.  And given this teams stated insistence on improving the run, doesn't Andre become indispensable?  

 

I have no idea what is $$ value is, but it only took an extra million or two to bring him in, I think we have to do it - assuming he wants to play here, which i fear is the actual bigger sticking point.

[gatorclaws]

Let me rephrase so that I can be blunt on where I think you are coming from.

 

Throwing out the 10 number that nobody expects is even going to come up so that when he gets less but more than what the bengals might pay means that you can say the bengals didnt overpay because they didnt pay 10, when lets say he gets the 9, thus the bengals "were in the right" yet in reality 10 was never going to happen. It allows for a bait and switch to what the market actually valued him at vs what you overpriced him at, vs what the bengals did. This simply means your pushing his value higher than anyone else including himself so that the bengals come up looking like roses when they dont value him at that number but the market pays him more than they valued him at. Its defending the Bengals without coming outright and saying "Mike Brown is right"

 

All I am saying is stop being coy about it, your going to defend them regardless.

 

 

or, he made an extreme example because the most basic points he's been trying to make seem to go right over your head. You continue to argue semantics instead of the point he's presenting.

[Jamie_B]

Willie also didn't derail his early years by getting too fat and never demanded more than he was worth until the very end. Smith will never be able to pass block like Willie but he could be great if he put in the work off the field and then let his performance write his checks for him. Instead it seems like he wants it the other way around and that just doesn't strike me as a player that will put in the work to maximize his potential. And as others have speculated, I'm not sure Andre even wants to be here.

 

 

If we were talking like this 3 years ago I would agree, but since then he has done nothing but comit himself to being a better player and the results have shown.

[Jamie_B]

Willie also didn't derail his early years by getting too fat and never demanded more than he was worth until the very end. Smith will never be able to pass block like Willie but he could be great if he put in the work off the field and then let his performance write his checks for him. Instead it seems like he wants it the other way around and that just doesn't strike me as a player that will put in the work to maximize his potential. And as others have speculated, I'm not sure Andre even wants to be here.

 

 

If we were talking like this 3 years ago I would agree, but since then he has done nothing but comit himself to being a better player and the results have shown.

 

or, he made an extreme example because the most basic points he's been trying to make seem to go right over your head. You continue to argue semantics instead of the point he's presenting.

 

 

Nope, I understood the whole time, I said so, the problem is the argument was never one I was making. (plus it really was never the reason he was using an extreme example, lets be honest)

[alleycat]

If we were talking like this 3 years ago I would agree, but since then he has done nothing but comit himself to being a better player and the results have shown.

How people thinking a guy making $7 million a year is suddenly going to get fat and lazy after he gets paid $9 million just makes no sense to me.

[Bengals1181]

Nope, I understood the whole time, I said so, the problem is the argument was never one I was making. (plus it really was never the reason he was using an extreme example, lets be honest)

 

 

for someone who laughs at the notion that some people on this site have agendas, you sure like to accuse others of having one.

 

Kind of like how your "right to have an opinion on a subject" is always so important until its a topic you don't think people should be talking about. :lol:

[HairOnFire]

I have no idea what is $$ value is, but it only took an extra million or two to bring him in, I think we have to do it - assuming he wants to play here, which i fear is the actual bigger sticking point.

 

 That's my fear as well.  

 

 Any new contract negotiation between the Bengals and Andre Smith has the potential to open old wounds.