Bengals1181 Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Im just scared after getting atkins and aj contracts done, lots of good players will be lost shouldn't be too bad. The Bengals have done quite well in saving money for just about everyone. Ironically, had they paid both JJoe and Hall, they maybe WOULD be facing a situation like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Im just scared after getting atkins and aj contracts done, lots of good players will be lost Atkins and AJ are the only two guys we can not afford to lose. The rest are guys we want to keep and should try to keep, but are not "game changers" like Atkins and AJ. Credit to the orginization for drafting as well as we have the past few years I'd have some confidence we could replace other guys, but those two guys must be kept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 shouldn't be too bad. The Bengals have done quite well in saving money for just about everyone. Ironically, had they paid both JJoe and Hall, they maybe WOULD be facing a situation like that. Maybe. Although I'd like to think they would be less likely to keep the Gathers/Gillberries/Adam Jonses of the world and get even younger than they already are in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coup000 Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 And my original point before Jaime stated tilting at his windmills was that in the last decade or so, the team has done a good job at keeping what they considered the core group together - in the early part it was the OTs, Chad and Carson, Rudi. I suppose you could call the franchise tag on Stacey Andrews a 'failure' as he eventually signed elsewhere. After that keeping Whit, and Hall. JJ I feel was a 'like to have' rather than a must have given the conditions, and odds are we would have kept even him without Carson's temper tantrum. So I expect that they will pick a pair or so of DLs that they will be sure to keep, make good offers to the rest and use drafts and comp picks and FA to keep the pipeline full of talent there. If that happens, do we get better? What is the likelihood that these new picks are going to be better players than MJ, Dunlap or god forbid Atkins and Green? That is my whole point....the elite teams can do this because treading water as an elite team means they are still elite, we aren't there, we have to get better! Which you don't do by letting young pro bolwers walk out the door. Not to mention, the team has never had this many young high profile guys coming up all within a 3 year window so the fact that they were able to sign 5 high profile guys in a 5 year span is pretty much irrelevant. To keep Atkins, Green, one of the pass rushers and Dalton (assuming he plays well enough to deserve it) they are going to have to spend a boat load of cash probably in an 18-24 month period. Are they willing to do that or will they hide behind the "Patriot way" and let guys go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Maybe. Although I'd like to think they would be less likely to keep the Gathers/Gillberries/Adam Jonses of the world and get even younger than they already are in the draft. jones was pretty cheap, and I think they would have kept geathers anyway. So maybe keeping JJoe costs you a Gillberry, Harrison, and Gresham longterm. But all that would be super hypothetical that probably isn't worth getting into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turningpoint Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 JJoe would have cost us Newman. which is 2.5 million a season. Let's be real here, No way Geathers and Gilberry make this roster, 1 is gone. We have Hunt, Dunlap, Thompson, Johnson, Gilberry and Geathers, and I'm probably missing others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 jones was pretty cheap, and I think they would have kept geathers anyway. So maybe keeping JJoe costs you a Gillberry, Harrison, and Gresham longterm. But all that would be super hypothetical that probably isn't worth getting into. Yeah all maybes, at this point I'm just marking it up as a mistake that we didnt suffer too badly from and moving on, but reserve the right to discuss it if it comes back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 JJoe would have cost us Newman. which is 2.5 million a season. Let's be real here, No way Geathers and Gilberry make this roster, 1 is gone. We have Hunt, Dunlap, Thompson, Johnson, Gilberry and Geathers, and I'm probably missing others. I entirely disagree. Hunt is a project that is going to take some time to get up to speed. Dunlap has an injury history. Geathers and Gillberry and Johnson are locks, Dunlap is as well, just whether he becomes the starter or not is in question. We kept Jamaal Anderson on the team last year, I suspect Hunt will replace him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 We might have won in them. ;) Agreed Would he have been able to block or tackle JJ Watt? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T-Dub Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Would he have been able to block or tackle JJ Watt? ;) Beating a dead horse to paste here but if Gresham catches a couple of easy ones or Gruden pulls his head out of his ass that game was ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Beating a dead horse to paste here but if Gresham catches a couple of easy ones or Gruden pulls his head out of his ass that game was ours. I was talking about the year before. :) But I agree. Not to mention Dalton and Green connecting on that deep pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 I was talking about the year before. :) But I agree. Not to mention Dalton and Green connecting on that deep pass. even in this year's game, I saw Watt beat every olinemen at least once. Still would have rather taken a shot at New England than deal with Watt and the crowd noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 An issue there was the uncertainty of the lapsing of the deal with the player and the uncapped year. It is hard to make rational financial planning when you don't know what the rules will be going forward. This pushed JJ and Hall onto the same 'signing year' which made it tougher yet to get them both down. That was the beauty of the uncapped year. The Redskins got punished because they used it to get out of Haynesworth's deal but the Bears weren't punished for giving Julius Peppers 35 mil his first year with it all off the cap. 2010 would have been the ideal time to get Joseph and Hall both locked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparky151 Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 If that happens, do we get better? What is the likelihood that these new picks are going to be better players than MJ, Dunlap or god forbid Atkins and Green? That is my whole point....the elite teams can do this because treading water as an elite team means they are still elite, we aren't there, we have to get better! Which you don't do by letting young pro bolwers walk out the door. Not to mention, the team has never had this many young high profile guys coming up all within a 3 year window so the fact that they were able to sign 5 high profile guys in a 5 year span is pretty much irrelevant. To keep Atkins, Green, one of the pass rushers and Dalton (assuming he plays well enough to deserve it) they are going to have to spend a boat load of cash probably in an 18-24 month period. Are they willing to do that or will they hide behind the "Patriot way" and let guys go? I wouldn't be surprised if one of Dunlap/MJ leaves but the team should be able to sign the other, plus Atkins before the 2013 season. After the season, we should work on Dalton next. Green can wait til after the 2014 season. I think Whitworth is up then too. The team may or may not keep Gresham but he won't be a lot more expensive as a free agent than he is now as a first round pick under the old CBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coup000 Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 I wouldn't be surprised if one of Dunlap/MJ leaves but the team should be able to sign the other, plus Atkins before the 2013 season. After the season, we should work on Dalton next. Green can wait til after the 2014 season. I think Whitworth is up then too. The team may or may not keep Gresham but he won't be a lot more expensive as a free agent than he is now as a first round pick under the old CBA. Totally agree with your first sentence....and totally disagree with your second. First the agreement, I've said all along keeping Atkins, Green and one of the DEs should be seen as an excellent job by the front office. Anything less and things don't look so good. Although keeping Andre was a good start. On the AJ/Dalton comment, I couldn't disagree any more. I expect after this coming season AJ will be a clear top 3 WR (if he isn't already) and most people will see him on his way to being one of the all time greats. You cannot wait to sign a guy like that. Of course, if Dalton goes off and pulls a Flacco on us (at least the playoff version) it's a whole different conversation. I don't think that is very likely though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Yeah, extend Green as soon as the new CBA allows. He is more important IMO than Dalton. As of right now anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Would he have been able to block or tackle JJ Watt? ;) JJ Watt wasn't the reason we lost that game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_B Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Beating a dead horse to paste here but if Gresham catches a couple of easy ones or Gruden pulls his head out of his ass that game was ours. Also think if we had a more dynamic RB. And had wr not had to draft Dre... All said this O has the weapons for Dalton they didn't last year so no excuses this year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|westside bengal| Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 Ironically, had they paid both JJoe and Hall, they maybe WOULD be facing a situation like that. No they wouldn't. They saved $50 million from nor having to pay CP the last 4 years of his contract thru 2014. That alone would have more than paid for one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Posted May 30, 2013 Report Share Posted May 30, 2013 JJ Watt wasn't the reason we lost that game Which game are you talking about? He was a big reason we lost in 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Lucid| Posted May 31, 2013 Report Share Posted May 31, 2013 Actually, I have responded to each of his points. He has chosen to ignore mine though. I wasn't ignoring you, i just hadn't gotten around to reading this thread until now.. I think the biggest point of diversion here in opinion centers on the value of Joseph to the franchise and it's perception among some of the fan base. I have freely admitted that the Bengals may very well agree with the assertion that they should have used the franchise tag. It's purely my opinion, but I think if they viewed him as crucial to the composition of the defense as some here do, they would have done more to make sure he was in the fold. From my perspective, it seems they managed to lock up the CB they viewed most valuable, and that isn't meant as a statement on Josephs value as a player per say, nor the Bengals desire to keep him. A matter of degrees perhaps? I have also freely admitted that the Bengals do indeed make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes... There is simply no such thing as an infallible person or even collective of people. The point I have been trying to make is that you don't have access to the results at the time you are making your decisions. You have to rely on analysis of the situation and try to make a decision that is going to have the highest chance of success, or least chance of failure depending.. As far as the Bengals are concerned (or should be concerned) "success" is measured by the quality of the team, and whether it is improving. The reason it's important to point out that "good" teams suffer these same losses is because it's all part of the process. Their process of decision making is what has elevated them to the quality of football team they are. They way they value and approach FA and their own players is part of that. Everyone makes mistakes, and every team loses players they would like to keep in FA.. The difference between good teams and bad teams, is the process they use to make their decisions ensures a higher rate of success than the less successful franchises. Just because you have a bad result, does not mean you change the way you make those decisions in the future. You have to look at the overall success rate of your way of doing things and make adjustments accordingly.. I think a truly objective person would look at the overall recent success of the management of this team and see a positive trend that would seem to indicate a good process. And I still contend that the Carson Palmer fiasco throws a huge wrench into the whole thing. Sure it turned out badly, but I am almost positive that had that not happened Joseph would still be on this team. Do you change the process for a situation like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengals1181 Posted May 31, 2013 Report Share Posted May 31, 2013 Ironically, had they paid both JJoe and Hall, they maybe WOULD be facing a situation like that. No they wouldn't. They saved $50 million from nor having to pay CP the last 4 years of his contract thru 2014. That alone would have more than paid for one of them. Then it would cost you someone else as they've been saving that money for green, dalton, Atkins, etc...Basically they took the Palmer money after his trade and set it aside for extensions. JJoe is due $7.5m, $7.5m, and $8.5m over the next three years. Peel that off the cap and you lose out on a core guy due soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBandJoeyV Posted May 31, 2013 Report Share Posted May 31, 2013 Then it would cost you someone else as they've been saving that money for green, dalton, Atkins, etc...Basically they took the Palmer money after his trade and set it aside for extensions. JJoe is due $7.5m, $7.5m, and $8.5m over the next three years. Peel that off the cap and you lose out on a core guy due soon. Yeah, say what you want about the JJ thing, but at the end of the day at this point we would have about 8 mil less of cap room this year and every other year if we had resigned him. People already as is think that we are going to have trouble resigning MJ, Dunlap and Geno (and later Dalton gresh and AJ), if we had 7-8 M less in cap room every year it would be even harder to get those guys signed. Saying that resigning JJ wouldnt have had a future effect on who we were able to retain is just wrong. Doesnt mean it was the right decision, but in hindsight it has worked pretty well for us. We were able to get similar production for less than half the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elijah15 Posted May 31, 2013 Report Share Posted May 31, 2013 Lol kinda crazy our two best players came out of georgia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|westside bengal| Posted May 31, 2013 Report Share Posted May 31, 2013 I wasn't ignoring you, i just hadn't gotten around to reading this thread until now.. I think the biggest point of diversion here in opinion centers on the value of Joseph to the franchise and it's perception among some of the fan base. I have freely admitted that the Bengals may very well agree with the assertion that they should have used the franchise tag. It's purely my opinion, but I think if they viewed him as crucial to the composition of the defense as some here do, they would have done more to make sure he was in the fold. From my perspective, it seems they managed to lock up the CB they viewed most valuable, and that isn't meant as a statement on Josephs value as a player per say, nor the Bengals desire to keep him. A matter of degrees perhaps? I have also freely admitted that the Bengals do indeed make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes... There is simply no such thing as an infallible person or even collective of people. The point I have been trying to make is that you don't have access to the results at the time you are making your decisions. You have to rely on analysis of the situation and try to make a decision that is going to have the highest chance of success, or least chance of failure depending.. As far as the Bengals are concerned (or should be concerned) "success" is measured by the quality of the team, and whether it is improving. The reason it's important to point out that "good" teams suffer these same losses is because it's all part of the process. Their process of decision making is what has elevated them to the quality of football team they are. They way they value and approach FA and their own players is part of that. Everyone makes mistakes, and every team loses players they would like to keep in FA.. The difference between good teams and bad teams, is the process they use to make their decisions ensures a higher rate of success than the less successful franchises. Just because you have a bad result, does not mean you change the way you make those decisions in the future. You have to look at the overall success rate of your way of doing things and make adjustments accordingly.. I think a truly objective person would look at the overall recent success of the management of this team and see a positive trend that would seem to indicate a good process. And I still contend that the Carson Palmer fiasco throws a huge wrench into the whole thing. Sure it turned out badly, but I am almost positive that had that not happened Joseph would still be on this team. Do you change the process for a situation like that? Your right in lot of what you say, however another perspective that is equally valid is that they locked up the CB that was left. After JJ bolted they really had no choice but to sign Leon. So we really don't know who they truly favored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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