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Guns in America


MichaelWeston

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When those two teabagging lunatics murdered 2 Metro officers here in Las Vegas then ran into a Sams Club, a local "good guy with a gun" tried to be a hero and got himself killed. Just a couple of weeks ago, a "good guy with a gun" tried to foil a robbery, got himself severely wounded. People need to realize that "The Expendables" wasn't a documentary... 

I'd be OK with concealed carry for  retired LEOs or military.  Someone that's had extensive training for those situations, in other words.  A weekend seminar & 30 minutes on a range doesn't cut it.

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I'd be OK with concealed carry for  retired LEOs or military.  Someone that's had extensive training for those situations, in other words.  A weekend seminar & 30 minutes on a range doesn't cut it.

Even with that experience they would need continued training; you need to keep the muscle memory, the reaction time, etc..

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The example I keep using is the attempted Giffords assassination in AZ.  Two armed civilians nearly shot each other, & I just read a story from a SWAT officer that responded to that mall shooting in Utah (IIRC) who almost killed a civilian who had gone in with his handgun to look for his wife.  

I'm not for concealed or open carry in public spaces.  I mean, I can't trust someone to use their damn turn signals & I'm supposed to be alright with everyone walking around armed?  We get these assholes trying to intimidate people at a mosque with their tacticool get-ups and AR's..  I think there is a middle ground if people want to find it. It doesn't seem like very many do, though.

I think most do but get caught up in the argument. 

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When those two teabagging lunatics murdered 2 Metro officers here in Las Vegas then ran into a Sams Club, a local "good guy with a gun" tried to be a hero and got himself killed. Just a couple of weeks ago, a "good guy with a gun" tried to foil a robbery, got himself severely wounded. People need to realize that "The Expendables" wasn't a documentary... 

Do you have more info or links on these? I had not heard of it. 

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Do you have more info or links on these? I had not heard of it. 

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/ambush-killed-two-metro-cops-2014-lasted-4-seconds-testimony-shows

 

Pull quote:

Surveillance footage shown during the review showed frightened families fleeing for their lives. Some ran out the front of the store, others through a back freight entrance. Some huddled in the pharmacy hoping to avoid the path of the shooters.

But one man walked toward danger, hoping to stop the rampage.

Joseph Wilcox, 31, was armed with a concealed weapon.

In video footage, he immediately followed Jerad Miller after the warning shot. Wilcox tracked him through the store, not realizing Amanda Miller was behind her husband, pushing a shopping cart.

Wilcox pointed his gun at Jerad Miller.

And as quickly as his gun was brandished, Amanda Miller —

holding a pistol with one hand — fired a single shot, killing Wilcox.

And: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Las_Vegas_shootings

Another "Good guy with a gun" almost gets himself killed:

http://www.lasvegasnow.com/news/man-critical-after-gunfight-with-robbery-suspect

He still might die, as he was in a bad shape.

 

And those two cop murderers? They cam from Cliven Bundy's ranch. Think on that for a minute...

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And those two cop murderers? They cam from Cliven Bundy's ranch. Think on that for a minute...

 

I'm glad you brought those kooks up again, because that was the moment that made me rethink the "Assault Rifle" debate.  Those dudes were obviously heavily armed, pointed those heavy arms directly at federal law enforcement on camera, & the feds pissed down their legs.  Until we're willing to sack up and deal with domestic terrorists I don't want to hear any more crap about how I shouldn't be able to buy the same rifle those shitnecks have been stockpiling for the last 10 years. Oh but we HAVE to do SOMETHING! Even if that something is stupid and ineffective or maybe even makes the problem worse, because MY FEELINGS. Uh, right. The same government that can't deal with a direct threat from a domestic terror cell openly giving interviews on Fox News is going to ban some arbitrarily defined class of firearm to make everyone safe.. Bullshit. Nope.

 

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Damn, just noticed the typo when you quoted that. :glare:

That said, totally agree. I advocate for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment, but know we simply don't have the grapes to make it happen... 

Eh, plenty of other amendments are severely limited or even disappear entirely if you clap your hands 3 times & say "Terrorism!". 

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Eh, plenty of other amendments are severely limited or even disappear entirely if you clap your hands 3 times & say "Terrorism!". 

Want to have fun? Ask an ammosexual to name 5 other Amendments. I recommend doing so from a distance though...

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The average gun owner is a normal person, who goes to work every day. Comes home, eats dinner, goes to sleep. The gun is not sitting in their hands at all times, they are not carrying it on a gun rack in their pickup truck. It's merely another tool that they have, for when the time calls for them to use that tool. Much like a table-saw in the garage.

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The average gun owner is a normal person, who goes to work every day. Comes home, eats dinner, goes to sleep. The gun is not sitting in their hands at all times, they are not carrying it on a gun rack in their pickup truck. It's merely another tool that they have, for when the time calls for them to use that tool. Much like a table-saw in the garage.

A tool that they will never ever likely use ever.  I really wonder what the average gun owner eats on a daily basis, what they feed their kids. They are so concerned with protecting their lives and their families lives but are not really afraid of actual things that will hurt them. 

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A tool that they will never ever likely use ever. 

 

IDK where you're getting that idea, people target shoot all the time.

 

 

I think a better comparison than a tool might be a backyard swimming pool.  Nobody needs a pool, & last time I looked up the numbers I found drowning to be the most common cause of accidental deaths among children.  Why don't we ban pools? There's not even a constitutional amendment getting in the way.

 

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IDK where you're getting that idea, people target shoot all the time.

 

 

I think a better comparison than a tool might be a backyard swimming pool.  Nobody needs a pool, & last time I looked up the numbers I found drowning to be the most common cause of accidental deaths among children.  Why don't we ban pools? There's not even a constitutional amendment getting in the way.

 

 

I can agree with that. When I hear tool, I hear expected use. Shoot all you want recreationally. Don't pretend your willing to risk all of our lives with lax gun laws because you want to protect your family. 

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The amendment is not about protecting the family, although that is one use for the tool. Sometimes you need it to hunt. Maybe you need to take care of a nasty critter on the farm. Maybe one day you might need it to defend yourself from a tyrannical government. Or maybe have it just in case all civilization breaks down, or perhaps a zombie invasion. In the meantime, yeah, go out and target practice. Must be ready at all times. It's a good tool to have.

Maybe none of these things will happen in your lifetime, but why not be prepared?

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I think it is funny (not in a haha kind of way) that the same people that say

it's their right to own a gun in case they need to fight against our tyrannical 

government are the same people that want the government to spend all

kinds of money to make our military strong.

 

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I agree that if the government with it's tanks, planes and nukes really, REALLY wants YOUR guns that no matter the size of your arsenal, you're cooked. However, I also agree with Steggs that the overwhelming majority of gun owners have them for legal and legit purposes too. 

It's a tough egg to crack. There's no way we can get rid of the 2nd Amendment. But I also agree that the time has come for some kind of change and I do think that focusing on mental health first is a good start.

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I think it is funny (not in a haha kind of way) that the same people that say

it's their right to own a gun in case they need to fight against our tyrannical 

government are the same people that want the government to spend all

kinds of money to make our military strong.

 

I'm not one of those people. I think we need to get out of the middle east altogether, and go a more isolationist route in foreign affairs. And I know many more on the more "libertarian" side feel the same way. Don't lump everyone together.

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I agree that if the government with it's tanks, planes and nukes really, REALLY wants YOUR guns that no matter the size of your arsenal, you're cooked. However, I also agree with Steggs that the overwhelming majority of gun owners have them for legal and legit purposes too. 

It's a tough egg to crack. There's no way we can get rid of the 2nd Amendment. But I also agree that the time has come for some kind of change and I do think that focusing on mental health first is a good start.

Small pockets of armed resistance do more damage than taking a military head on when out-armed.

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Small pockets of armed resistance do more damage than taking a military head on when out-armed.

Yeah I find that argument odd, too.  Our wars in Iraq & Afghanistan should be a clear indication of how a modern army can be stymied by some loosely-organized locals with small arms. However I would also add that this scenario playing out domestically makes for a great movie or video game but is not very realistic.  Our military is more diverse & merit-based than the private sector & made up of citizen volunteers. I don't find this "us vs. them" scenario plausible. The other reasons listed above are more legit, from a breakdown in public order, to not being dependent on law enforcement particularly for someone in rural areas, to the satisfaction of spending a day in the field trying to fetch your own dinner.  I feel like a lot of this anti-gun rhetoric is coming from people who've never handled one. I would imagine our interstate highways would seem terrifying to someone who'd never been in a car, y'know?

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Yeah I find that argument odd, too.  Our wars in Iraq & Afghanistan should be a clear indication of how a modern army can be stymied by some loosely-organized locals with small arms. However I would also add that this scenario playing out domestically makes for a great movie or video game but is not very realistic.  Our military is more diverse & merit-based than the private sector & made up of citizen volunteers. I don't find this "us vs. them" scenario plausible. The other reasons listed above are more legit, from a breakdown in public order, to not being dependent on law enforcement particularly for someone in rural areas, to the satisfaction of spending a day in the field trying to fetch your own dinner.  I feel like a lot of this anti-gun rhetoric is coming from people who've never handled one. I would imagine our interstate highways would seem terrifying to someone who'd never been in a car, y'know?

Or someone who knows that their own recreation and paranoia should not outweigh the safety of the general public.  There is no reason to have as many guns as we have in american. NONE.

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Or someone who knows that their own recreation and paranoia should not outweigh the safety of the general public.  There is no reason to have as many guns as we have in american. NONE.

 

Actually there's a very good reason, which is that the entire country was conquered, settled & retained at gunpoint.   Further, when you're talking about a "general public" that needs warning labels on a cup of coffee to remind them that it is hot, I'm afraid that their safety is not the trump card you make it out to be, nor should it be.  There are countless compromises where safety is at best a secondary concern, from the backyard swimming pools previously mentioned, to sports cars, to cigarettes & booze, to football, and on & on..  All manner of things that are inherently unsafe, many with no real legitimate purpose at all, yet enjoyed responsibly (or otherwise) by the vast majority of people. I'd also point out that, from someone who thinks the solution to police brutality is compliance, your views regarding public safety don't carry much weight with me.  Then you go so far as to make a blanket statement about paranoia regarding people who don't have the same unwavering faith in law enforcement to save them in a situation where every second counts. In the broader sense of law enforcement, where were they when armed goons were setting up roadblocks in Utah? And you suggest that this same weak-willed federal law enforcement is going to disarm all those people?  Pshaw. You'll make fun of people for thinking you want to disarm them, then in the same breath suggest disarming them.  It's fear on top of rhetoric on top of fear, & makes it painfully obvious that you don't have the information or understanding to offer anything close to a reasonable solution.  Just a bunch of handwringing and some caps lock.

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