Building the Bengals: Roster at 85. 5 to add

[claptonrocks]

8 hours ago, sparky151 said:

 

Eh, a lot of their sins are covered by Burrow. If we still had Dalton at QB, nobody would be talking about how great our roster is. You'd think they would make more effort to protect the franchise. 

Its a playoff contender with Dalton.

He did that..

It's a SB contender with JB..

He did that..

 

Great QBs can cover up alot of players mistakes or inabilities..

 

[T-Dub]

1 minute ago, claptonrocks said:

Its a playoff contender with Dalton.

He did that..

It's a SB contender with JB..

He did that..

 

Great QBs can cover up alot of players mistakes or inabilities..

 

 

 

Maybe if he had to cover for one less he would've won it all by now.  That's why it's frustrating watching the team double down on those same players.

 

 

[Jamie_B]

20 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

On the one hand, we made it to the Super Bowl with Spain, Hopkins, Adeniji, and Prince starting on the O-line. On the other hand, the clock eventually struck midnight for that group. I'm glad they signed Brown and Karras and Cappa. And glad we have good receivers and Loudini. 

 

But we need a veteran backup IOL, ideally with C/G flexibility. Dalton Risner is probably the only option left at this point. And unless Carman has a great camp, we don't look to have a good, long term starting option at RT. At best Jonah is a 1 year patch. At worst, he gets regularly overrun and Burrow pays the price. Collins may or may not be available at the start of the year and may or may not be effective when available. Ford has some starting experience but wasn't very effective and is thus on a minimum salary contract. And we know Smith and Adeniji aren't the answer as starters. Instead of looking for Awuzie or Hendrickson's successors in the draft, we should have been looking to upgrade from Collins. 

 

 

Didn't we resign Sharping?

[PatternMaster]

1 hour ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

Didn't we resign Sharping?

 

Yeah but he's not that good, he was awful last season and was cut from one of the worst teams in the NFL

[PatternMaster]

1 hour ago, sparky151 said:

 Instead of looking for Awuzie or Hendrickson's successors in the draft, we should have been looking to upgrade from Collins. 

 

And who would that have been? Just curious of who this RT that's hands down better than what we have on the roster? Like an actual proven upupgrade....because its easy to critique and criticize without having to come up with a realistic solution. 

[T-Dub]

31 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

 

And who would that have been? Just curious of who this RT that's hands down better than what we have on the roster? Like an actual proven upgrade....because its easy to critique and criticize without having to come up with a realistic solution. 

 

No one in the draft is a proven anything but it might have been good to have another healthy OT on the roster.  Neither Williams nor Collins have proven they can stay healthy for 17+ games, nor has Carman or Jonah proven they can play RT any better than [insert draft pick] - if you want to talk about what's been proven, after all..

 

So fine, maybe they didn't see the value there when making the call but there's no denying that position is a big ol' question mark right now.

[dex]

12 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

No one in the draft is a proven anything but it might have been good to have another healthy OT on the roster.  Neither Williams nor Collins have proven they can stay healthy for 17+ games, nor has Carman or Jonah proven they can play RT any better than [insert draft pick] - if you want to talk about what's been proven, after all..

 

So fine, maybe they didn't see the value there when making the call but there's no denying that position is a big ol' question mark right now.

OT is certainly less of a question now than it was before the start of free agency. They went out and invested more guaranteed money to an OT than any other external free agent in their history. That shows real commitment. Very possible the Bengals now have a top 10 OL in the league now, with a QB who gets the ball out quicker than anyone else in the league. So at least for 2023, the Bengals may have 99 problems but OL ain't one. 

 

That said, if 3 OL starters go down next January again as happened this year, the Bengals will be in trouble again. Same as every other team in the league would be.

[T-Dub]

24 minutes ago, dex said:

OT is certainly less of a question now than it was before the start of free agency. They went out and invested more guaranteed money to an OT than any other external free agent in their history. That shows real commitment. Very possible the Bengals now have a top 10 OL in the league now, with a QB who gets the ball out quicker than anyone else in the league. So at least for 2023, the Bengals may have 99 problems but OL ain't one. 

 

That said, if 3 OL starters go down next January again as happened this year, the Bengals will be in trouble again. Same as every other team in the league would be.

 

Talking about RT specifically.  If one of the 3 candidates are decent they'll be ok.  Top 10 would require them to be better than decent.  

 

More to the point, none of those 3 are remotely proven.  Two of them ended the season on IR, and not for the first time.  The 3rd, Carman, player surprising well at LT and I like the attitude he brings but is also very questionable.

 

With over $22 million combined tied up in that position for the season it'd be nice to be able to count on one of them.

 

My hope now is that either Jonah redeems () himself or Carman has the greatest doghouse-to-penthouse turnaround in team history.  Collins I think is full of shit and dead weight, I'll believe he's here to work when I see it.

 

As it stands, if one starter goes down in January again the Bengals will be in trouble.  There's still no depth to speak of anywhere on the line.

[PatternMaster]

28 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

No one in the draft is a proven anything but it might have been good to have another healthy OT on the roster.  Neither Williams nor Collins have proven they can stay healthy for 17+ games, nor has Carman or Jonah proven they can play RT any better than [insert draft pick] - if you want to talk about what's been proven, after all..

 

So fine, maybe they didn't see the value there when making the call but there's no denying that position is a big ol' question mark right now.

 

There were bigger question marks at CB,S, and DE. The AFC is loaded with QBs, we need all the defensive playmakers we can get...hence the all defense Day 1 and 2 of the draft.

 

8 of the top 10 QBs in the NFL are in the AFC and drafting a maybe at RT is not going to help you as much as a drafting defense. 

 

18 minutes ago, dex said:

OT is certainly less of a question now than it was before the start of free agency. They went out and invested more guaranteed money to an OT than any other external free agent in their history. That shows real commitment. Very possible the Bengals now have a top 10 OL in the league now, with a QB who gets the ball out quicker than anyone else in the league. So at least for 2023, the Bengals may have 99 problems but OL ain't one. 

 

That said, if 3 OL starters go down next January again as happened this year, the Bengals will be in trouble again. Same as every other team in the league would be.

 

So you're telling me that the Bengals actually did improve the offensive line this offseason...interesting. 

[T-Dub]

4 minutes ago, PatternMaster said:

 

There were bigger question marks at CB,S, and DE. The AFC is loaded with QBs, we need all the defensive playmakers we can get...hence the all defense Day 1 and 2 of the draft.

 

8 of the top 10 QBs in the NFL are in the AFC and drafting a maybe at RT is not going to help you as much as a drafting defense. 

 

 

So you're telling me that the Bengals actually did improve the offensive line this offseason...interesting. 

 

 

I like the players they drafted.  I also wish the OL depth wasn't still paper thin.  These 2 things aren't mutually exclusive, are they?

[PatternMaster]

10 minutes ago, T-Dub said:

 

 

I like the players they drafted.  I also wish the OL depth wasn't still paper thin.  These 2 things aren't mutually exclusive, are they?

 

But is it really paper thin? What teams oline depth do you like more than the Bengals?

[PatternMaster]

13 hours ago, sparky151 said:

 

Eh, a lot of their sins are covered by Burrow. If we still had Dalton at QB, nobody would be talking about how great our roster is. You'd think they would make more effort to protect the franchise. 

 

You could say the same thing for every elite QB, that's what makes them elite.

 

If we still had Dalton no one would care because Dalton is a backup QB.

 

They've made an effort, they've signed 4 top tier free agents, spent numerous draft picks, and revamped the coaching staff...oh you mean they did not do what you thought they should do so any and all of their efforts are basically worthless. 

 

Let's see how the new line plays before you say it isn't enough. You still haven't named an actual player that is an obvious upgrade at RT that the Bengals could have had but didn't bother to bring in.

[claptonrocks]

5 hours ago, Jamie_B said:

 

 

Didn't we resign Sharping?

Unfortunately yes..

 

Decent run blocker.

A whiff at pass protecting.

DEs stunt to get past Max. 

Stiff as a  board..

 

But a cheap vet backup that you hope won't see extensive time ..

[claptonrocks]

3 hours ago, dex said:

OT is certainly less of a question now than it was before the start of free agency. They went out and invested more guaranteed money to an OT than any other external free agent in their history. That shows real commitment. Very possible the Bengals now have a top 10 OL in the league now, with a QB who gets the ball out quicker than anyone else in the league. So at least for 2023, the Bengals may have 99 problems but OL ain't one. 

 

That said, if 3 OL starters go down next January again as happened this year, the Bengals will be in trouble again. Same as every other team in the league would be.

Committed to Oline..definately.

 

They signed JBs blindside bodyguard..

That in itself is is the biggest upgrade..

 

As for top ten oline in the NFL....

Im thinking top 20 and that's good enough when you have JB ..

 

[dex]

7 hours ago, claptonrocks said:

Committed to Oline..definately.

 

They signed JBs blindside bodyguard..

That in itself is is the biggest upgrade..

 

As for top ten oline in the NFL....

Im thinking top 20 and that's good enough when you have JB ..

 

How about we split the difference and say top half of the league?

 

One thing that doesn't get mentioned nearly enough is that the OL scheme actually evolved from outside zone to more of a shotgun/downhill style about midway through the season which seemed to fit the strengths of the line better. There was marked improvement in the OL play until the line got gutted by injuries to 3 starters in January.

 

The reason this move wasn't made in training camp was Burrow's ruptured appendix surgery that caused him to lose 20-25 pounds in a short time. So early in the season the goal was to protect Burrow until he recovered from the ordeal. They wanted him under center more until he was fully recovered, as he clearly wasn't 100 percent early in the year. Assuming Burrow actually gets a normal offseason for the first time in his pro career - he is certainly overdue for one -  Pollock will have the OL playing the new scheme from day one in hopes that they can get everyone on the same page early. That could help the overall offense tremendously. 

[claptonrocks]

6 hours ago, dex said:

How about we split the difference and say top half of the league?

 

One thing that doesn't get mentioned nearly enough is that the OL scheme actually evolved from outside zone to more of a shotgun/downhill style about midway through the season which seemed to fit the strengths of the line better. There was marked improvement in the OL play until the line got gutted by injuries to 3 starters in January.

 

The reason this move wasn't made in training camp was Burrow's ruptured appendix surgery that caused him to lose 20-25 pounds in a short time. So early in the season the goal was to protect Burrow until he recovered from the ordeal. They wanted him under center more until he was fully recovered, as he clearly wasn't 100 percent early in the year. Assuming Burrow actually gets a normal offseason for the first time in his pro career - he is certainly overdue for one -  Pollock will have the OL playing the new scheme from day one in hopes that they can get everyone on the same page early. That could help the overall offense tremendously. 

Interesting..

Top half it is..😊

[sparky151]

19 hours ago, PatternMaster said:

 

And who would that have been? Just curious of who this RT that's hands down better than what we have on the roster? Like an actual proven upupgrade....because its easy to critique and criticize without having to come up with a realistic solution. 

 

Let me introduce you to Dawand Jones. If you are demanding someone in the draft who is proven by NFL standards, no such creature exists. But by major college standards he qualifies as proven capable of playing at a high level. He also has traits that suggest he might succeed in the NFL. The Browns are happy with him so far.

 

18 hours ago, dex said:

OT is certainly less of a question now than it was before the start of free agency. They went out and invested more guaranteed money to an OT than any other external free agent in their history. That shows real commitment. Very possible the Bengals now have a top 10 OL in the league now, with a QB who gets the ball out quicker than anyone else in the league. So at least for 2023, the Bengals may have 99 problems but OL ain't one. 

 

That said, if 3 OL starters go down next January again as happened this year, the Bengals will be in trouble again. Same as every other team in the league would be.

 

Burrow's quick release is a defense mechanism because the line can't be counted on to protect for much longer. It would be nice to put more deep shots back in our quiver. 

 

18 hours ago, PatternMaster said:

 

There were bigger question marks at CB,S, and DE. The AFC is loaded with QBs, we need all the defensive playmakers we can get...hence the all defense Day 1 and 2 of the draft.

 

 

 

This is just silly. The team will probably carry 5 DEs on the 53 this year. Our top 5 DEs from last year all return. They'll probably carry 4 safeties. We lost our 2 starters from last season but plan to promote Hill to starter, signed Scott to replace Bell, re-signed Thomas and have the unproven Anderson. Maybe Battle bumps Thomas or Anderson off the roster but safety wasn't a bigger need than the O-line. We're not OSU whose seasons were ended by poor defense against big plays. The Bengals seasons were ended by O-line breakdowns. Let's not make it 3 years in a row.

 

18 hours ago, PatternMaster said:

 

But is it really paper thin? What teams oline depth do you like more than the Bengals?

 

The Eagles would be an obvious answer but if you set aside the starters, quite a few teams have better backup O-line groups than the Bengals. Ours might be the worst in the AFCN. 

 

17 hours ago, PatternMaster said:

 

You could say the same thing for every elite QB, that's what makes them elite.

 

If we still had Dalton no one would care because Dalton is a backup QB.

 

They've made an effort, they've signed 4 top tier free agents, spent numerous draft picks, and revamped the coaching staff...oh you mean they did not do what you thought they should do so any and all of their efforts are basically worthless. 

 

Let's see how the new line plays before you say it isn't enough. You still haven't named an actual player that is an obvious upgrade at RT that the Bengals could have had but didn't bother to bring in.

 

They signed 1 top tier free agent, plus 3 experienced guys, one of whom had just been cut by his prior team. Yes, they've spent a number of draft picks on the O-line in recent years but don't have a lot to show for it. It's probably fair to say Jonah's career to date has been at least mildly disappointing. Jordan got Burrow injured. Volson had a decent rookie year and perhaps the light is coming on for Carman. Adeniji has moved around and played wherever asked. But he's not very good. D'Ante Smith and Trey Hill have shown nothing to date. That's why they needed to sign 4 free agent starters. 

 

 

[Inigo Montoya]

Dawand Jones was a 4th round pick for a reason.  He’s a project with multiple areas of concern (weight, conditioning, desire, inexperience).  Classic boom-bust prospect who teases with his measurements but might not care very much about football.  I’m not buying he would have helped us right away if at all.  

[T-Dub]

6 hours ago, sparky151 said:

 

 

Burrow's quick release is a defense mechanism because the line can't be counted on to protect for much longer. It would be nice to put more deep shots back in our quiver. 

 

 

+ play action, which no one respects at a plodding 2-3 ypc

[|High School Harry|]

8 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Dawand Jones was a 4th round pick for a reason.  He’s a project with multiple areas of concern (weight, conditioning, desire, inexperience).  Classic boom-bust prospect who teases with his measurements but might not care very much about football.  I’m not buying he would have helped us right away if at all.  

Or that a he will help anyone ever.

Now glad we didn't take this pant load esp in the first round.

Right now I can't see taking him over any of our first 3-4 draft picks.

[sparky151]

15 hours ago, Inigo Montoya said:

Dawand Jones was a 4th round pick for a reason.  He’s a project with multiple areas of concern (weight, conditioning, desire, inexperience).  Classic boom-bust prospect who teases with his measurements but might not care very much about football.  I’m not buying he would have helped us right away if at all.  

 

Well, that's the point. He could help us considerably just based on his measurements and tape from last year. His weight is a mystery but his conditioning isn't. He played 75 snaps vs Meatchicken and 70 in the playoff game. That's more than most NFL teams get offensively. He went from 3 star prospect to starter at a major program to all American. He dominated guys drafted ahead of him. He only allowed pressure on 1% of his passing snaps, best in the country among tackles. He didn't allow a QB hit, let alone a sack in 2022. Sure he can work on his body and his technique. But on day 1 he poses a challenge that Jonah or Carman or Collins don't to players like Garrett and Watt. The Browns think they got a bargain with him. 

[Inigo Montoya]

11 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

 

Well, that's the point. He could help us considerably just based on his measurements and tape from last year. His weight is a mystery but his conditioning isn't. He played 75 snaps vs Meatchicken and 70 in the playoff game. That's more than most NFL teams get offensively. He went from 3 star prospect to starter at a major program to all American. He dominated guys drafted ahead of him. He only allowed pressure on 1% of his passing snaps, best in the country among tackles. He didn't allow a QB hit, let alone a sack in 2022. Sure he can work on his body and his technique. But on day 1 he poses a challenge that Jonah or Carman or Collins don't to players like Garrett and Watt. The Browns think they got a bargain with him. 

 

Yeah obviously you think highly of him but the people that matter didn’t judge him very highly.  He couldn’t crack the lineup at OSU until last year.  He was clearly out of shape during the pre-draft process and it was reported he preferred basketball to football.  He’s a project plain and simple.  Cleveland certainly doesn’t expect him to start immediately.  Nobody else should either.

[sparky151]

He was a full time starter for OSU in 2021 as well. He was a backup player there in 2020. There was a 3rd hand report he told some team his dream was to be an NBA player. When asked directly about that report, he said it wasn't true. Cleveland hopes Conklin stays healthy but that's not been his recent history. Thus the pick of Jones. 

[T-Dub]

23 minutes ago, sparky151 said:

He was a full time starter for OSU in 2021 as well. He was a backup player there in 2020. There was a 3rd hand report he told some team his dream was to be an NBA player. When asked directly about that report, he said it wasn't true. Cleveland hopes Conklin stays healthy but that's not been his recent history. Thus the pick of Jones.

 

They can just do that? Won't the guy who is hurt every year be sad?

 

🥷

[Inigo Montoya]

Bottom line, Jones fell to the 4th round.  The team that drafted him has one of the better RT in the league and he’s nothing but a developmental depth player Day 1.  The notion that he could’ve been our starting RT as a rookie is pure fantasy.