Bengals biggest weakness ?

[Patmo]

Right now I think it's the O Line.Willie (a hall of famer,imo) can no longer perform up to his old standard.Levi is not the Levi of '05 due to injuries. Gauichic (sp) is not strong enough for the C position .Whit and Stacey are good young players but I question if they'll ever reach the level of Levi and Willie at their peak performances.In short,our O Line has deteriorated over the '07 season.As a result Carson's performance is suffering. His sack total might not be high but I'd like to see his passes under pressure stat.Imo,he's not the same QB as a result .

Unfortunately,management has signed big long term deals with Levi and Willie.That is going to hurt in the long run.I never did understand them signing Willie to a deal last year.Loyalty would be my guess.
Regardless,they've got 75 million tied up in two tackles who's performance is failing.Do they have depth to overcome the problem ? No.

[Bengals1181]

I'd agree. I started to post this in another thread, but I think Carson has trust issues with the line when Willie isn't in there.


I think the bigger issue is consistency and them finding some kind of unity. I don't know that anyone needs to be replaced, they just need to gel as a unit.

[mongo]

With or without Willie, I think the line will be fine. All I ever read says lines need continuity more than any other position group. With Willie in and out of the lineup, Levi coming back late, Whitworth and Andrews shuffling about, and Stepanovich and Ghiaciuc both getting starts at center, I think the line looks worse than it will be with a single lineup.

[USN Bengal]

Owner...





:noninja:

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='607043' date='Dec 10 2007, 01:54 PM']Owner...





:noninja:[/quote]


do you at least want to provide some basis for that?

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='607044' date='Dec 10 2007, 01:56 PM']do you at least one to provide some basis for that?[/quote]
Being that you seem to be an apologist for whatever goes wrong with this franchise, why am I not surpised that you are the one asking that question?

If our record since 1990 isn't explanation enough... I'll spell it out for you.

Not that it should be needed... but I've been a Bengals fan since 1968, when I was 4 years old. We had good times, and then we had bad times. It was cyclical, like it is with MOST teams.

Then Paul Brown died.

Mike Brown took over and sunk us for 15 years. A ray of light hits when Marvin Lewis is hired (luck? quite possibly, going on the evidence I'd have to say so) and leads us to respectability. So we finally get out of the "laughingstock" limelight and are ready to take a step FORWARD... actual competiveness with REAL chances at advancing in the post season... and we DON'T.

Now that we have had 35 sell outs in a row, I have yet to see Mike Brown step up and put some of the money he is making into building a better team. As the article old posted earlier say clearly;

[quote][b]We will have 48 people under contract and the sixth highest amount available for FA's... etc.[/b][/quote]

The excuses are bullshit and a thing of the past. 5 drafts for a "defensive genius" to fix the defense and it hasn't happened. We know our needs... DT & LB in particular.

We'll have the money, especially when we FINALLY toss aside Justin Smith.
Can you say Briggs and Haynesworth?

We all can... but I would be willing to bet that Mike Brown can't/won't.

It's time to bring in [b]KNOWN QUALITY[/b]... and not rely on what has proven to be UNRELIABLE... our talent evaluators... especially on the defensive side of the ball. You can make up any excuse you want 1181... but the proof is in the pudding.... and that fucking pudding is RANCID.

This is a reality check for an owner to see if winning is REALLY the most important thing to him. Our once faulous offense ISN'T fabulous right now, so if we HAD a window that was open.. it will close very soon.

Hell... even the Red's have opened up the wallet and look like they want to win.

Color it any way you want, the truth is out there in the product on the field... and it ain't pretty.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='607050' date='Dec 10 2007, 02:22 PM']Being that you seem to be an apologist for whatever goes wrong with this franchise, why am I not surpised that you are the one asking that question?

If our record since 1990 isn't explanation enough... I'll spell it out for you.

Not that it should be needed... but I've been a Bengals fan since 1968, when I was 4 years old. We had good times, and then we had bad times. It was cyclical, like it is with MOST teams.

Then Paul Brown died.

Mike Brown took over and sunk us for 15 years. A ray of light hits when Marvin Lewis is hired (luck? quite possibly, going on the evidence I'd have to say so) and leads us to respectability. So we finally get out of the "laughingstock" limelight and are ready to take a step FORWARD... actual competiveness with REAL chances at advancing in the post season... and we DON'T.

Now that we have had 35 sell outs in a row, I have yet to see Mike Brown step up and put some of the money he is making into building a better team. As the article old posted earlier say clearly;



The excuses are bullshit and a thing of the past. 5 drafts for a "defensive genius" to fix the defense and it hasn't happened. We know our needs... DT & LB in particular.

We'll have the money, especially when we FINALLY toss aside Justin Smith.
Can you say Briggs and Haynesworth?

We all can... but I would be willing to bet that Mike Brown can't/won't.

It's time to bring in [b]KNOWN QUALITY[/b]... and not rely on what has proven to be UNRELIABLE... our talent evaluators... especially on the defensive side of the ball. You can make up any excuse you want 1181... but the proof is in the pudding.... and that fucking pudding is RANCID.

This is a reality check for an owner to see if winning is REALLY the most important thing to him. Our once faulous offense ISN'T fabulous right now, so if we HAD a window that was open.. it will close very soon.

Hell... even the Red's have opened up the wallet and look like they want to win.

Color it any way you want, the truth is out there in the product on the field... and it ain't pretty.[/quote]


now was that so hard? Thanks for making some assumptions about me though. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img]



Truth, be told, I don't completely disagree. Never have. god forbid someone requested you explain your one word answer.

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='607055' date='Dec 10 2007, 02:27 PM']now was that so hard? Thanks for making some assumptions about me though. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons//41.gif[/img]



Truth, be told, I don't completely disagree. Never have. god forbid someone requested you explain your one word answer. [/quote]

Was it that hard for you to think about what Mike Brown HASN'T done?

Your sarcasm is duly noted...

God forbid you have to ask about my one word answer that everyone else knows the answer too.

Too lazy to think today?

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='607060' date='Dec 10 2007, 02:45 PM']Was it that hard for you to think about what Mike Brown HASN'T done?

Your sarcasm is duly noted...

God forbid you have to ask about my one word answer that everyone else knows the answer too.

Too lazy to think today? [/quote]


is it too unreasonable to expect a poster to backup their statement?



Don't confuse my defending the front office for things I DON'T think they deserve to be bashed for, for me thinking that there isn't anything wrong with the way the team is run and other issues.

How am I the one who's lazy when you're the one who gave a one word response? Sorry I challenged you to think.

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='607061' date='Dec 10 2007, 02:48 PM']is it too unreasonable to expect a poster to backup their statement?



Don't confuse my defending the front office for things they DON'T deserved to be bashed for, for me thinking that there isn't anything wrong with the way the team is run and other issues.

How am I the one who's lazy when you're the one who gave a one word response? Sorry I challenged you to think.[/quote]

Here's the difference...

I DIDN'T have to think about that post... I just had to type. I took it for granted (silly me) that any long standing fan of the Cincinnati Bengals would've known IMMEDIATELY what I was talking about.

Is it too unreasonable to expect someone who has professed to be a fan to KNOW what's happened in the past 17 years?

BTW - You are a team apologist... and your mother dresses you funny. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/47.gif[/img]


Muck Fondays....

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='607063' date='Dec 10 2007, 02:57 PM']Here's the difference...

I DIDN'T have to think about that post... I just had to type. I took it for granted (silly me) that any long standing fan of the Cincinnati Bengals would've known IMMEDIATELY what I was talking about.

Is it too unreasonable to expect someone who has professed to be a fan to KNOW what's happened in the past 17 years?

BTW - You are a team apologist... and your mother dresses you funny. [img]http://forum.go-bengals.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/47.gif[/img][/quote]


why are you getting all personal?




and yes, my mom does dress funny. How'd you know?

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='607064' date='Dec 10 2007, 02:59 PM']why are you getting all personal?




and yes, my mom does dress funny. How'd you know?[/quote]

[s]Cuz I peeked as I was leaving last night...[/s]

Come on.... that one is WAY too easy...

Personal?
Wow... that's not personal... not for me.

I'll make sure to throw in a ninja or three next time... when I get personal I usually threaten to eat your dog's liver in front of you and your family....

but I'm not hungry right now....

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='607066' date='Dec 10 2007, 03:04 PM'][s]Cuz I peeked as I was leaving last night...[/s]

Come on.... that one is WAY too easy...

Personal?
Wow... that's not personal... not for me.

I'll make sure to throw in a ninja or three next time... when I get personal I usually threaten to eat your dog's liver in front of you and your family....

but I'm not hungry right now.... [/quote]


ha, I didn't say I took offense to it. All I've done in this thread is ask you to elaborate on a comment, yet that was enough for you to assume you know how I feel about the front office, label me an apologist, call me a lazy thinker, and insult my momma. Oh, and threaten to eat the dog I don't have.


Don't assume you know how I feel about the front office just because I don't falsely accuse them on some subjects.

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='607068' date='Dec 10 2007, 03:09 PM']ha, I didn't say I took offense to it. All I've done in this thread is ask you to elaborate on a comment, yet that was enough for you to assume you know how I feel about the front office, label me an apologist, call me a lazy thinker, and insult my momma. Oh, and threaten to eat the dog I don't have.


Don't assume you know how I feel about the front office just because I don't falsely accuse them on some subjects. [/quote]

Fair enough... although you have seemed to be a bit "tilted" towards their favor in past posts. I will deign to not repeat my mistakes.

no dog huh?

Got a cat? An emu?

Actually.. that wasn't an insult to your momma... if she dresses you like you act, then it's not her fault you're so girly...


<------notice the use of ninja emoticon!

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='607071' date='Dec 10 2007, 03:14 PM']Fair enough... although you have seemed to be a bit "tilted" towards their favor in past posts. I will deign to not repeat my mistakes.

no dog huh?

Got a cat? An emu?

Actually.. that wasn't an insult to your momma... if she dresses you like you act, then it's not her fault you're so girly...


<------notice the use of ninja emoticon![/quote]


are you in to cannibalism?


I have a little hamhock of a baby at home for ya.



As for ownership, I can pick out a number of things I wish they did differently. I just think on some issues they get criticized when the blame lies elsewhere. As I've said in other threads, Mike Brown's biggest problem as owner is that he's still trying to be a loyal man in what's become a greedy business. The days of seeing out coaches' contracts and not backloading players contracts are over. I don't think he does it because he's cheap, I think he does it because he's too loyal.

[ThurmanMunster]

The issue is Center and LG. Andrews has done a great job at RT. He is better than Willie right now. Whitworth has been subpar at LG this year and Ghiaciuc has been worse than awful at C.

[|SF2|]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='607073' date='Dec 10 2007, 03:19 PM']are you in to cannibalism?


I have a little hamhock of a baby at home for ya.



As for ownership, I can pick out a number of things I wish they did differently. I just think on some issues they get criticized when the blame lies elsewhere. As I've said in other threads, Mike Brown's biggest problem as owner is that he's still trying to be a loyal man in what's become a greedy business. The days of seeing out coaches' contracts and not backloading players contracts are over. I don't think he does it because he's cheap, I think he does it because he's too loyal.[/quote]

I gotta step in now. Mike Brown is CHEAP period. All you have to do is look at every head coaching decision he has made since his dad died to know this. He has NEVER brought in a known quantity at head coach. Dave Shula??? Are you kidding me? He had NO experience. Lebeau?? Everyone else passed on him, why did we take him?

Fact is Mike has always saved money by hiring cheap unproven people to be our head coach. Of course he sees out the coaches' contracts, there the lowest in the NFL. Butch Davis of the Browns made the same amount in 2003 as Marvin makes today.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='607073' date='Dec 10 2007, 03:19 PM']are you in to cannibalism?


I have a little hamhock of a baby at home for ya.



As for ownership, I can pick out a number of things I wish they did differently. [b]I just think on some issues they get criticized when the blame lies elsewhere[/b]. As I've said in other threads, Mike Brown's biggest problem as owner is that he's still trying to be a loyal man in what's become a greedy business. The days of seeing out coaches' contracts and not backloading players contracts are over. [b]I don't think he does it because he's cheap, I think he does it because he's too loyal.[/b][/quote]
As you just requested - please explain your thoughts...


I think he does it because he's both.

[Ben]

opposing teams

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' post='607089' date='Dec 10 2007, 04:06 PM']As you just requested - please explain your thoughts...


I think he does it because he's both.[/quote]


well for example, the front office gets criticized for not having enough scouts. IMO, despite that fact the Bengals have done relatively well in the draft and that while I agree that I would like to see more scouts, I don't think its hindering our ability to draft well. I would definately like to see more scouting of upcoming opponents however.

As I mentioned above, I think one of Brown's biggest weaknesses is that he's too loyal and stuck in tradition. The rules of the game have changed, and he hasn't accepted that. The way we structure contracts doesn't allow us to take full advantage of the CAP. Katie has done a better job with this though.

I don't mind his family members working for the team as long as they are qualified. IMO, Katie and Troy are. Can't speak for Paul or any others.

I would definately like to see the training staff beefed up or at least shaken up. This is one area where you can probably accuse him of being cheap.

As for the practice bubble, I tend to agree with Go on this one. Where are you going to put it? The best spot to put it would be over top of the current practice fields. Problem is, the county owns the land and while the squabbles and lawsuits continue, that's not going to work. I don't think he'd have any problem ponying up the money if you can find a good option for it. The land would cost more than the structure.

As for SF2's comment on coaches salaries, I won't profess to know enough about that to debate it.

As for not firing head coaches, I still believe that its more of a loyalty thing than financial thing (ie paying two head coaches salaries at the same time). As for the coordinators and position coaches, I think that's more of an issue with Marvin.

IMO, I think Mike gave Marvin more control than most of us think. That's just my opinion though. And IMO, Marvin has been too loyal with some of his coaches.

On the subject of a GM, it was nice to see that he at least relinquished the title a few years back and made it a "GM by committee". I'm not convinced that we need a GM (based off the clout I THINK Marvin has), but maybe we need to give Marvin the GM title and give him an assistant GM. If marvin doesn't have as much clout as I think he does, that thought would change a bit.

As for holding the city hostage over getting a new stadium, it wasn't much different than any other owner would have done. IMO, the city gave in too easily as I think Mike is so bent on tradition that he eventually would have cracked to keep the team in Ohio.


As I've said a few times, with a different spin, Mike has to realize that this isn't his father's game anymore. The rules have changed, and he has to come to grips with that. IMO, he's so consumed with trying to do things the way he thinks Paul would have done them, that he's refusing to realize that the league has changed and that those ways don't work anymore.


I actually think its a credit to Marvin (Katie's increased influence has helped) that things have turned around so well in spite of Mike's reluctance to change. The caliber of players has increased, the coaching has improved (yet still needs improving), and the drafting has been solid.

[USN Bengal]

[quote name='Bengals1181' post='607102' date='Dec 10 2007, 04:39 PM']well for example, the front office gets criticized for not having enough scouts. IMO, despite that fact the Bengals have done relatively well in the draft and that while I agree that I would like to see more scouts, I don't think its hindering our ability to draft well. I would definately like to see more scouting of upcoming opponents however.

As I mentioned above, I think one of Brown's biggest weaknesses is that he's too loyal and stuck in tradition. The rules of the game have changed, and he hasn't accepted that. The way we structure contracts doesn't allow us to take full advantage of the CAP. Katie has done a better job with this though.

I don't mind his family members working for the team as long as they are qualified. IMO, Katie and Troy are. Can't speak for Paul or any others.

I would definately like to see the training staff beefed up or at least shaken up. This is one area where you can probably accuse him of being cheap.

As for the practice bubble, I tend to agree with Go on this one. Where are you going to put it? The best spot to put it would be over top of the current practice fields. Problem is, the county owns the land and while the squabbles and lawsuits continue, that's not going to work. I don't think he'd have any problem ponying up the money if you can find a good option for it. The land would cost more than the structure.

As for SF2's comment on coaches salaries, I won't profess to know enough about that to debate it.

As for not firing head coaches, I still believe that its more of a loyalty thing than financial thing (ie paying two head coaches salaries at the same time). As for the coordinators and position coaches, I think that's more of an issue with Marvin.

IMO, I think Mike gave Marvin more control than most of us think. That's just my opinion though. And IMO, Marvin has been too loyal with some of his coaches.

On the subject of a GM, it was nice to see that he at least relinquished the title a few years back and made it a "GM by committee". I'm not convinced that we need a GM (based off the clout I THINK Marvin has), but maybe we need to give Marvin the GM title and give him an assistant GM. If marvin doesn't have as much clout as I think he does, that thought would change a bit.

As for holding the city hostage over getting a new stadium, it wasn't much different than any other owner would have done. IMO, the city gave in too easily as I think Mike is so bent on tradition that he eventually would have cracked to keep the team in Ohio.


As I've said a few times, with a different spin, Mike has to realize that this isn't his father's game anymore. The rules have changed, and he has to come to grips with that. IMO, he's so consumed with trying to do things the way he thinks Paul would have done them, that he's refusing to realize that the league has changed and that those ways don't work anymore.


I actually think its a credit to Marvin (Katie's increased influence has helped) that things have turned around so well in spite of Mike's reluctance to change. The caliber of players has increased, the coaching has improved (yet still needs improving), and the drafting has been solid.[/quote]

I agree with you on the loyalty aspect, however... I think that you're fooling yourself on the scouting/drafting aspect.

We have STUNK in drafting defense, and in have since at least 1990.

Our scouts/coaches/consultant's continually lead us to pick duds (Buck, Wilkinson, Wilson, Williams, Hall, Roman, Thompson, Ratliff) , or reach too high (Smith)... and when they do seem to get it right (Pollack, Weathersby, Fisher, Thurman) bad luck smacks us in the ballsack.

Now.. can they help the bad luck? No... but damn! Something needs to change, because the status quo is NOT working and has not for a long time

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='USNBENGAL the Original' post='607121' date='Dec 10 2007, 05:08 PM']I agree with you on the loyalty aspect, however... I think that you're fooling yourself on the scouting/drafting aspect.

We have STUNK in drafting defense, and in have since at least 1990.

Our scouts/coaches/consultant's continually lead us to pick duds (Buck, Wilkinson, Wilson, Williams, Hall, Roman, Thompson, Ratliff) , or reach too high (Smith)... and when they do seem to get it right (Pollack, Weathersby, Fisher, Thurman) bad luck smacks us in the ballsack.

Now.. can they help the bad luck? No... but damn! Something needs to change, because the status quo is NOT working and has not for a long time[/quote]


I disagree about the drafting since Marvin has taken over, but you and I have already had that argument this week so we'll just leave it be.


As I said, would I like more scouts? Certainly. Do I think its holding us back in the draft though? Not really. We've drafted just as well over the last 5 years as most teams who have double and triple the amount of scouts as us.

[CincyInDC]

Greatest weakness? Football.

[claptonrocks]

Biggest weakness on this team is putting pressure on opposing quarterbacks.
Thats why the majority of them look good against the Bengals.
I dont care where the pressure comes from be it DT, DE or linebacker but they have to
get a couple more players that excell in that area..
It makes the whole units job easier.

[Jeb]

The coaches and trainers.