Judgement Day!

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='CTBengalsFan' timestamp='1288816440' post='937088']
Remember I'm the "conspiracy theorist" who likes Jones, so I agree with what he says.

The real judgment day was indeed today... because of QE2
[/quote]


Jones lost me on the whole "fema coffins" thing.

[AmishBengalFan]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1288739165' post='936848']
These people want to [url="http://veracitystew.com/2010/10/04/alaska-tea-partier-joe-miller-wants-to-eliminate-minimum-wage-video/"]end the minimum wage[/url], [url="http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/25/tea-party-hopefuls-target-education-department/print/"]close the department of education[/url], [url="http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/09/20/100853/graham-us-must-consider-military.html"]a war with Iran[/url], [url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/tea-party-leader-we-shoul_n_519970.html"]end social security[/url], [url="http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2010/10/20/tea-party-senate-candidate-denies-separation-of-church-and-state-in-constitution/"]they don't believe in the separation of church and state[/url], [url="http://www.times-georgian.com/view/full_story/9695184/article-Tea-party-candidate-defends-use-of-tax-loophole?instance=TG_home_story_offset"]they defend corporate tax loopholes[/url], [url="http://thinkprogress.org/2010/09/24/raese-money-inheritanc/"]want to end the inheritance tax[/url], [url="http://thedailyconservative.net/2010/09/05/angle-dont-extend-unemployment-benefits-go-get-a-real-job-%C2%AB-ask-2/"]don't want to extend unemployment[/url] in a time that jobs are scarce, [url="http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/08/miller-social-security-medicare-unconstitutional/"]called medicare unconstitutional[/url], [url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/Holden_Mirror/lawmakers-seek-distance-f_n_734800_61364433.html"]want to privatize the VA[/url], [url="http://www.autisable.com/733277621/sharron-angle-and-the-tea-party-why-autism-advocates-should-fear-them/"]don't believe in autism[/url], [url="http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/10/gop-tea-party-frontrunner-abolish-public-schools/"]eliminating public schools[/url], [url="http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/05/tea-party-call-to-repeal-the-17th-amendment-causing-problems-for-gop-candidates.php"]repeal the 17th amendment[/url], [url="http://www.aolnews.com/surge-desk-elections/article/candidates-who-want-to-amend-or-repeal-sections-of-the-us-constitution/19665204"]the 16th amendments[/url], [url="http://www.aolnews.com/surge-desk-elections/article/candidates-who-want-to-amend-or-repeal-sections-of-the-us-constitution/19665204"]the 14th amendment[/url],[url="http://climateprogress.org/2010/08/03/rand-paul-mine-safety-regulations-jobs/"]opposed to federal mine safety regulations[/url][/quote]
You say that like its a bad thing. I tend to agree with most (but not all) of these. Let's pick one - the 17th Amendment. I'd like to see it go, you don't I take it?

Here's the WSJ's take: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304879604575582192395853212.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_5

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='AmishBengalFan' timestamp='1288819376' post='937098']
You say that like its a bad thing. I tend to agree with most (but not all) of these. Let's pick one - the 17th Amendment. I'd like to see it go, you don't I take it?
[/quote]


Yes I do, because I tend to think they are bad things or I wouldn't have said so.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='Vol_Bengal' timestamp='1288815412' post='937075']
This...


I will say. Part of me thinks this Repub surge this midterm cycle is almost a designed thing by Dems so in another 2 years when the main man's chair is up for election the blame game can go both ways. Then us American's will be "fed up" with the repubs that we elected to Washington to fix this problem and Obama has an easier time of re-election. Not that that matters in the end.
[/quote]

Actually, there was a GOP strategist today that said it is probably a good thing the Republicans did not take the Senate this year because it disarms Obama from blaming the Republicans wholly in 2012 for not cooperating with his agenda. Then in 2012 the GOP can "finish off" the democrats and take the presidency too...

[beastmaster]

[quote name='AmishBengalFan' timestamp='1288819376' post='937098']
You say that like its a bad thing. I tend to agree with most (but not all) of these. Let's pick one - the 17th Amendment. I'd like to see it go, you don't I take it?

Here's the WSJ's take: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304879604575582192395853212.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_5
[/quote]

This country is being overrun by simpletons. Smart people really need to start breeding more but of course they won't...

Idiocracy here we come!

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='beastmaster' timestamp='1288822247' post='937107']
This country is being overrun by simpletons. Smart people really need to start breeding more but of course they won't...

Idiocracy here we come!
[/quote]

yes it is

[sois]

As long as I get stimilus, I don't care if Hitler and Bin Lauden are presidents.

[|Tigers Johnson|]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1288825699' post='937125']
As long as I get stimilus, I don't care if Hitler and Bin Lauden are presidents.
[/quote]

Those two could never coexist....

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Tigers Johnson' timestamp='1288826320' post='937128']
Those two could never coexist....
[/quote]


What are you talking about? They both hate the Jews.

[AmishBengalFan]

Oh well, welcome to the Plutocracy!
[img]http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8696/plutocracy.png[/img]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='AmishBengalFan' timestamp='1288831440' post='937143']
Oh well, welcome to the Plutocracy!
[img]http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8696/plutocracy.png[/img]
[/quote]


indeed

[Homer_Rice]

There's a new sheriff in town:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyuzNP_UP4w[/media]

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='IKOTA' timestamp='1288814446' post='937070']
IMO the endgame is the same for both Repubes and DemoRats. It's the small issues we fight over thinking we actually have a choice while both parties are "leading" us on a downward spiral. The sad part is that you have good hearted Americans thinking they actually have a choice in the 2 party system.
[/quote]

I thought that was the direction you were going in but wasn't quite sure.

And I agree wholeheartedly...

[Homer_Rice]

[url="http://i.imgur.com/lovCh.jpg"]Meanwhile, in Ohio...[/url]

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1288836748' post='937153']
[url="http://i.imgur.com/lovCh.jpg"]Meanwhile, in Ohio...[/url]
[/quote]


the irony is rich

[John~Galt]

Wow. This thread is a perfect example of the problem in politics today. There is no conversation. Those we disagree with are either "bat shit crazy homophobe redneck bible thumpers" or "left wing nut job socialists."

We don't talk debate issues we throw bombs and try to shout down our opponents. We call them "enemies" and then proceed to treat them that way.

If you are for gay marriage you are for the destruction of the American family, if you are against it you are a homophobic bigot.

For tax cuts? You are a shill for corporate fat cats and want to destroy the middle class.

Against tax cuts? You are class warfare mongering elitist prick.

Against cap and trade? You want to let corporations destroy America.

For cap and trade? You are a union loving America hating socialist.

I could go on for pages and pages but you get the point.



It would be great to actually have a national conversation on these incredibly important issues without demonizing those who disagree with us. Instead we are fan boys of our chosen political party or ideology and will stop at nothing to marginalize those that disagree. Our elections are about sound bytes and star power rather than where a particular candidate truly stands on the issues.

Someone mentions Sarah Palin and invariably someone else makes it abundantly clear that they believe her to be a right wing nut job that is a clear and present danger to American democracy. Mention Obama and we hear all about communism and how he is some sort of Manchurian candidate. No one is talking rationally about where these particular people stand on issues, they just demonize them and go on.

We celebrate elections like sporting events. We pat our own backs when our guy wins and drone on endlessly about how stupid Americans are and how we are going to hell in a handbag when our guy loses.

You Jon Stewart fans completely missed the point about the restore the sanity thing. He was saying lets tone it down and have a reasonable conversation about the issues. I agree with that idea. I have in the past done exactly what I am complaining about tonight, but not any more. Screw the pundits and bloggers. I am going to pay attention to the issues our would be leaders care about and vote accordingly. I am going to do my best to be part of the rational political discourse.

[Homer_Rice]

Could you start by changing your name?

In all seriousness, what we need are more polemics, but polemics with powerful arguments. One of the reason the so-called "left" is so impotent nowadays is because their "fringe" used to be a group of powerful thinkers expressing radical ideas--especially socialist and Marxist ideas in the economic field. After 72, that has slowly morphed into a grab-bag of nebulous single-serving interests. Any vegan environmentalist who stops by my door seeking support for relocating gay whales due to global warming just gets laughed at.

And then I suggest a swift kick in the balls would do them good.

It's the [i]general[/i] welfare and not the single issue politics which matter. On this I think you'll agree. It's my contention that the fringes exert pressure on the so-called center which often causes some debate between the margins, so to speak. The lack of significant ideas on the fringes of both the parties is helping turn "moderates" into mashed potato brains. At least the Repubs are trying with the tea party stuff. Folks on that side are pretty ticked off. Meanwhile, "leftists" moan about reefer not being legalized in California.

Think about the impact of this recent Stewart/Colbert hug-in. Try to distill a zeitgeist from it. Then compare it to the Civil Rights movement of the 50s and 60s. Snark is fun, but it isn't very good politics. Nor, I submit, is a call for politeness a substitute for the pursuit of truth. And the truth is a harsh mistress.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1288845993' post='937175']
[color="#FF0000"]Could you start by changing your name?[/color]

In all seriousness, what we need are more polemics, but polemics with powerful arguments. One of the reason the so-called "left" is so impotent nowadays is because their "fringe" used to be a group of powerful thinkers expressing radical ideas--especially socialist and Marxist ideas in the economic field. After 72, that has slowly morphed into a grab-bag of nebulous single-serving interests. Any vegan environmentalist who stops by my door seeking support for relocating gay whales due to global warming just gets laughed at.

And then I suggest a swift kick in the balls would do them good.

It's the [i]general[/i] welfare and not the single issue politics which matter. On this I think you'll agree. It's my contention that the fringes exert pressure on the so-called center which often causes some debate between the margins, so to speak. The lack of significant ideas on the fringes of both the parties is helping turn "moderates" into mashed potato brains. At least the Repubs are trying with the tea party stuff. Folks on that side are pretty ticked off. Meanwhile, "leftists" moan about reefer not being legalized in California.

Think about the impact of this recent Stewart/Colbert hug-in. Try to distill a zeitgeist from it. Then compare it to the Civil Rights movement of the 50s and 60s. Snark is fun, but it isn't very good politics. Nor, I submit, is a call for politeness a substitute for the pursuit of truth. And the truth is a harsh mistress.
[/quote]

yeah no kidding, its not at all a divisive name.

[Vol_Bengal]

[quote name='John~Galt' timestamp='1288844618' post='937167']
We don't talk debate issues we throw bombs and [b]try to shout down our opponents[/b]. We call them "enemies" and then proceed to treat them that way.
[/quote]

Amen.

[Homer_Rice]

[quote name='Jamie_B' timestamp='1288877129' post='937221']
yeah no kidding, its not at all a divisive name.
[/quote]
Nothing wrong with flying one's colors, imo. And John has a good point when it comes to serious discourse. But, there will always be some amount of elbowing when it comes to political discussion.

An amusing aside: I came out of the voting booth the other day smiling--the result of something I noticed on the ballot. I looked over to the gals running the id check/sign in process and said: "I'm sorry I missed the debate between the Republican and Democratic candidates for Coroner." They got curious looks on their faces. I then said, "Well, I guess it's just a matter of how deeply they want to bury you."

BTW, in the run up to the election, I noticed what I interpreted as a sense of desperation by the Democrats on the ground here in KY. Got many more calls than normal. An AFL-CIO fellow showed up on my doorstep just to talk to me. (I caused his eyes to glaze over when I went into my anti-Blue-Dog Dem rant and starting spouting off about Glass-Steagal!) And some earnest college kid came by the day before and the day of the election to make sure we rocked the vote for Chandler, the House candidate! Normally, Chandler is safe. Noticably, however, never got any direct appeals for Conway (the fellow who lost to Rand Paul) other than the emails I get from the statewide Dem party organization. Might be partly why he lost although he may have concentrated his Get Out The Vote efforts elsewhere.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1288845993' post='937175']
Could you start by changing your name?

In all seriousness, what we need are more polemics, but polemics with powerful arguments. One of the reason the so-called "left" is so impotent nowadays is because their "fringe" used to be a group of powerful thinkers expressing radical ideas--especially socialist and Marxist ideas in the economic field. After 72, that has slowly morphed into a grab-bag of nebulous single-serving interests. Any vegan environmentalist who stops by my door seeking support for relocating gay whales due to global warming just gets laughed at.

And then I suggest a swift kick in the balls would do them good.

It's the [i]general[/i] welfare and not the single issue politics which matter. On this I think you'll agree. It's my contention that the fringes exert pressure on the so-called center which often causes some debate between the margins, so to speak. The lack of significant ideas on the fringes of both the parties is helping turn "moderates" into mashed potato brains. At least the Repubs are trying with the tea party stuff. Folks on that side are pretty ticked off. Meanwhile, "leftists" moan about reefer not being legalized in California.

Think about the impact of this recent Stewart/Colbert hug-in. Try to distill a zeitgeist from it. Then compare it to the Civil Rights movement of the 50s and 60s. Snark is fun, but it isn't very good politics. Nor, I submit, is a call for politeness a substitute for the pursuit of truth. And the truth is a harsh mistress.
[/quote]

You are a pretty smart guy. I can't disagree with any of this. I am not sure politeness is a prerequisite for a healthy debate, but I know calling the other side names is not constructive and leads only to more polarized views and dramatic landslide elections that are entertaining to watch, but accomplish very little toward resolving the crucial issues at hand.

As for my name, I loved that book. I would not consider myself an objectivist per se, but some of Rand's ideas are in my opinion brilliant. That is a whole other thread.

[sois]

John Galt, that is a dumb idea.

Conversation is useless when there is like one researched vote for every infinity party line/best name/coolest flyer/best hair/whitest sounding name/first in list vote.

Voting is stupid. Your research will always get drowned out by high volume of retarded votes.

Talking shit is the best way to entertain yourself when discussing the illusion of voting to get things accomplished.

[sois]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1288845993' post='937175']
It's the [i]general[/i] welfare and not the single issue politics which matter. On this I think you'll agree.
[/quote]

Aren't specific ideas better than general ones though? Saying shit like "we need jobs in America" isn't as awesome to me as "here is my 20 point plan to bring jobs". Specific single-interests at least have a focus. Not "we need the fat cats in Washington to cut taxes". Generalities and broad stroke ideas are gay. "The Bengals offense needs to score more points". That should get me elected.

[John~Galt]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1288881416' post='937239']
John Galt, that is a dumb idea.

Conversation is useless when there is like one researched vote for every infinity party line/best name/coolest flyer/best hair/whitest sounding name/first in list vote.

Voting is stupid. Your research will always get drowned out by high volume of retarded votes.

Talking shit is the best way to entertain yourself when discussing the illusion of voting to get things accomplished.
[/quote]

Unfortunately you are right about informed votes being drowned out. I hate that my vote is essentially canceled out each election by some moron voting strictly along party, racial, or single issue lines. I will however keep casting my informed ballot. It is the one thing I can do and each election might turn out to be "the one" in which a handful of votes one way or the other really do make a difference.

[sois]

[quote name='John~Galt' timestamp='1288887488' post='937273']
Unfortunately you are right about informed votes being drowned out. I hate that my vote is essentially canceled out each election by some moron voting strictly along party, racial, or single issue lines. I will however keep casting my informed ballot. It is the one thing I can do and each election might turn out to be "the one" in which a handful of votes one way or the other really do make a difference.
[/quote]

Yeah, that's pretty much all you can do.