Accountability and moves during the bye week

[Madieu Superstar]

[quote name='Dalton4HOF' timestamp='1350922672' post='1173693']
i hate marvin more than many, but i think there is something you are missing here. raving about an injured palyer in practice is PR bullshit, what else would one say? "meh, still hurt, next question" or "he could probably play, but it would be a lot safer to sit him another week, give him the bye and come back after the bye, giving him 2 more weeks to get set while only missin 1 more game"

that wouldnt exactly sit well with the fans, eh? the steelers only scored 24 points, half the league is AVERAGING that many points per game. 14 teams(almost half) is AVERAGING 24+ points per game.

and the INT gave them the ball on our 29, sucks we couldnt hold them to a fieldgoal, but kirkpatrick wouldnt have been covering Miller on the TD pass anyway.. so no, i dont think kirkpatrick would have been much help, maualuga is enough of a coverage liability to not realistically expect team to be held under 20 points, so we agree there, but who the fuck else is there to play?

are there great MLB's sitting at home? was there a great one in the draft we skipped out on?

HC's dont do magic. they dont invent great players. there are 7 defensive players on IR or PUP, and 3 more on the injury report.

which HC has magical healing powers?

as for the blowout against a rookie qb in the palyofs, you say dalton throw 3 INT's right? and the texans are currently the best team in the NFL

we got to the playoffs because our defense was top 5 most of the year last year...

while the offense was bottom half of the league...
[/quote]

I understand what you're saying. yes we only gave up 24 points, but I think you and I both know it could of, and perhaps should have been much worse. The Steelers converted 3rd downs at will last night and, at least to me, it didn't seem like we were even contesting on these catches. Guys were wide open all damn night.

As for Maualuga, like I said, can you really say we'd be worse at LB with Rey at Will and Burfict in the middle? I guess it's possible, but I'm not sure it's probable. If anything, moving Burfict back to his natural position might even make him better. I can't recall seeing such a liability at such an important position for a team that was supposed to contend. How could you go into the season with this guy as your MLB?

yes , the Bengals have fallen on the injury bug hard this year, but what the hell else is new? This team is decimated by injuries most years. At some point, get used to it and move on. No one feels sorry for this team because of our injuries, but they sure as heel our laughing at us over our performance last night.

I understand your not a fan of the offense, and I think they've been gross the last 3 weeks, but last night, I was actually more frustrated by the 3rd down defense. They are absolutely pedestrian on 3rd downs and they will never win playing like that. But you see it over and over and over with this team under Marvin Lewis, not being able to get off the field. Especially in these types of must-win games. At some point, somebody other than Chris Crocker needs to make a game-changing play the way they did before the half.

[JBandJoeyV]

[quote name='Dalton4HOF' timestamp='1350923147' post='1173695']


i know it was wide open, i was there, watching in person, but its still a pointless pass. what are we gonna do dink 10 yards down the field? at that stage we needed chunks of yards, there wasnt time to play the dink and dunk game. and I dont feel that that is a stage in the game where you can "hope" he breaks one for longer...you need multiple scores in a very very short time.

i think it was intentionally called, as you see what happens when he tries to make bigger plays...

i cant really speak on the oline, 90% of the time he doesnt have the ball long enough to state good protection or not, 7% of the time he starts scrambling around like he is being chased, BEFORE he is being chased, and 3% of the time he stands there and gets sacked having had plenty of time to throw the ball..

I have never, in my entire life, wanting big ben on this team.. but there was a play late in the game, he was getting hit in the pocket, he stepped back, started getting hit, whipped the ball going backwards off his back foot in a BULLET right in the WR's chest 15 yards to the sideline... I just watch other QB's play, there are about 6-7 teams i record the 30 minute full games on directv to watch them play, and there is a pretty clear skillset deficiency between our QB and their QB..and watching the playoffs and the offensive teams winning superbowls year after year after year.. its a depressing situation to know, for SURE, no doubts, that your team cant even come close to hanging with those other teams..

and it sucks. I have never looked forward to the nfl draft in october before... well before now...i can see where this train is headed..
[/quote]

If its all on dalton how come this season is going almost the same path as all but 1 of the 9 seasons with Carson? Players come and go and it's still the same old shit. Carson or Andy. Chad or aj. Shayne or nuge. Newman or oneal. Benson or rudi or bjge.

[Madieu Superstar]

[quote name='JBandJoeyV' timestamp='1350923499' post='1173697']
If its all on dalton how come this season is going almost the same path as all but 1 of the 9 seasons with Carson? Players come and go and it's still the same old shit. Carson or Andy. Chad or aj. Shayne or nuge. Newman or oneal. Benson or rudi or bjge.
[/quote]

That's a good point that I was thinking about on the way to work this morning. The players all change. We've rebooted 3 times now under Marvin. yet the results are staggeringly identical to one another. Not just the fact that we lose, but the way we lose. That loss last night felt like something straight out of 2007. There's just a culture in this franchise and I'm not sure anything short of an exorcism can get rid of it.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='gatorclaws' timestamp='1350920967' post='1173683']
Even if Dalton isn't the issue, he's not the answer either. Similar to what 1181 said, this is a league where you sometimes need your QB to carry you through bad times and Dalton isn't really capable of that.

At least Dalton is doing $50 autograph sessions.
[/quote]


fwiw, I think he IS the answer. Just because Dalton, in his 2nd year, can't carry the team doesn't mean he's not capable of leading the team.


Right now this team has no running game and no legitimate #2 threat. No QB is going to have a lot of success with that.


I hope Gruden sits down and does some soul searching on how best to use his players. Right now Gresham and Hawkins are not being used to the best of their abilities IMO. Hawkins is either playing too much or not enough, and when he does play they are sending him on a lot of 10-20yd routes rather than the 5-10yd routes he should be running. Hawkins needs to be a safety valve on every play. Similarly, they need to stop using Gresham as a safety valve and consistently getting him outside of the numbers lined up on a safety or linebacker. With no threat of the running game teams are keeping their safeties back, doubling Green and taking away the middle of the field. That neutralizes Gresham down the seam because he's basically running himself into double coverage. Let him get outside and use his size as an advantage.

This team also needs to develop its short passing game, and by that I mean screens, and checkdowns. They typically run 1-2 screens a game, if that, and often times Dalton doesn't have a check down option on passing plays. It's killing them right now, especially when they don't have a running game to complement them.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='Madieu Superstar' timestamp='1350923385' post='1173696']
I understand what you're saying. yes we only gave up 24 points, but I think you and I both know it could of, and perhaps should have been much worse. The Steelers converted 3rd downs at will last night and, at least to me, it didn't seem like we were even contesting on these catches. Guys were wide open all damn night.

[/quote]


yea the defense was a couple drops from giving up 28 points in the first half. Ben had pretty much any throw he wanted all night.

[Madieu Superstar]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1350924276' post='1173702']
yea the defense was a couple drops from giving up 28 points in the first half. Ben had pretty much any throw he wanted all night.
[/quote]

The most frustrating part was how predictable it was. Even on the 3rd and 16 in the first half, you just knew they were going to convert somehow. It's a shame. I think Marvin is really good guy, but he's a below average coach under a winner's standards. Under Mike Brown's standards, he's good enough. To the fan's, it's not good enough to turn in a completely listless performance in a must-win game where the same problems pop up from the previous 2 weeks.

The misdirection play was another one that had me irate. The Steelers run this on us EVERY FREAKING TIME!!!! If the guy doesn't drop it he scores. How can you not be ready for this play after seeing it every game for the last 10 years? The Bengals are a team that consistently comes unprepared to win a big football game. I know we say we have great leaders in Whitworth and Peko, but it sure hasn't resulted in actual progress. Last night proved that to me. This is a team that is identical to the ones from 03-10. The cast might be different, but the writers are recycling the same plot lines. To this viewer, the show needs to be cancelled.

[akiliMVP]

The offensive play calling has been atrocious the last 3 weeks. Doing the opposite of what they did when they won 3 straight. Hopefully we get more aggressive after bye.

Defense hasn't been any better. Very few big plays, awful on 3rd down, little pass rush, etc.

I highly doubt we'll see any major roster changes. Kirkpatrick will play but guessing extremely sparingly. Even with Newman getting embarrassed every week. Burfict would be starting at MLB if Howard was healthy so I think we're stuck with Rey.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='akiliMVP' timestamp='1350924821' post='1173708']
The offensive play calling has been atrocious the last 3 weeks. Doing the opposite of what they did when they won 3 straight. Hopefully we get more aggressive after bye.

Defense hasn't been any better. Very few big plays, awful on 3rd down, little pass rush, etc.

I highly doubt we'll see any major roster changes. Kirkpatrick will play but guessing extremely sparingly. Even with Newman getting embarrassed every week.[b] Burfict would be starting at MLB if Howard was healthy so I think we're stuck with Rey.[/b]
[/quote]


I definitely don't see them moving Burfict mid-season, especially with how well he's playing WLB.

[Madieu Superstar]

[quote name='akiliMVP' timestamp='1350924821' post='1173708']
The offensive play calling has been atrocious the last 3 weeks. Doing the opposite of what they did when they won 3 straight. Hopefully we get more aggressive after bye.

Defense hasn't been any better. Very few big plays, awful on 3rd down, little pass rush, etc.

I highly doubt we'll see any major roster changes. Kirkpatrick will play but guessing extremely sparingly. Even with Newman getting embarrassed every week. Burfict would be starting at MLB if Howard was healthy so I think we're stuck with Rey.
[/quote]

This is an absolute disgrace to me. If you do what you're doing with the guys you're doing it with, you're guaranteed to be no better than average. Get out of your comfort zone and change it up. Kirkpatrick needs to play. I know what Newman is and it's not good enough. I know what Maualuga is and it's not good enough. I have no faith in Marvin Lewis to recognize this though. It took him over half a season in 2010 to put Dunlap on the field, when we could have used him desperately at times early on.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1350924949' post='1173711']



I definitely don't see them moving Burfict mid-season, especially with how well he's playing WLB.
[/quote]
Yep. If Howard didn't get hurt we would never have seen how good Burfict is. Still think the MLB spot is his next year with Howard re-signed.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='akiliMVP' timestamp='1350925237' post='1173713']
Yep. If Howard didn't get hurt we would never have seen how good Burfict is. Still think the MLB spot is his next year with Howard re-signed.
[/quote]

I think they could go a lot of different ways. I could see Burfict at WLB or MLB, Howard at WLB or not re-signed, Maualuga at MLB, SLB, benched, or not on the team. I don't think Lawson will be back. Rey and Muckelroy seem to be nothing to count on. Moch seems to be a DE now at 270lbs. Skuta will be back.

[sois]

[quote name='SF2' timestamp='1350915900' post='1173658']
Working on our 22nd year without a playoff win. Fucking epic.
[/quote]

My tenure as a Bengals fan Still waiting to feel my first boob (one playoff win).

[Lewdog]

Does any of the coaches around the league are snickering every time they see the Bengals lose, just waiting to see Marvin's reaction? I actually wonder what Marvin's status is in the eyes of others. Truth be told, did Marvin ever win with a team that was absolutely stacked with talent, even counting his DC job with the Ravens.

He still makes the same mistakes he did when he first came to Cincinnati, and his team plays as undisciplined as he coaches. How many times have you seen the Bengals get burned on an end around play? How many times do linebackers get out of position? How many times does the CB and safeties not communicate well, and leave a guy wide open? How many times does the defense bail out other teams on third and long? This can go on and on. It's the kind of things that shouldn't happen to NFL players. I can't stand watching Maualuga drop too deep in zone and let TEs and receivers go underneath him, make the catch, and break his tackle for a large gain.

I'm not going to the offense because it basically comes down to the O-lne being hurt and not playing well. The only other thing is, Gruden is starting to show some kinks in his armor. He lacks the ability to formulate an active gameplan. Why did we see one screen pass to Gresham that got around 10 yards or more, and then not see another one the whole game? I can't remember if they tried one or not, but why did Hawkins now get some screen plays or end around plays? Sanu at RB? The wildcat is fine, but a team has serious problems if they are going to use him as a RB in the I-formation. The Bengals were still in this game until the third quarter when they came out of the locker room looking like they just got prison ass raped. It's just so so so sad. The Bengals need to hire Lou Holtz as a consultant and let him do the pre-game and half time speeches. This team does not look at all fired up. Even when a guy makes a good play, you hardly ever see guys run up to him and congratulate him.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='Bengals1181' timestamp='1350925769' post='1173715']


I think they could go a lot of different ways. I could see Burfict at WLB or MLB, Howard at WLB or not re-signed, Maualuga at MLB, SLB, benched, or not on the team. I don't think Lawson will be back. Rey and Muckelroy seem to be nothing to count on. Moch seems to be a DE now at 270lbs. Skuta will be back.
[/quote]
With the way we've been playing we could get Te'o for MLB and leave Burfict outside. I'd like that a lot.

[akiliMVP]

[quote name='akiliMVP' timestamp='1350926182' post='1173719']

With the way we've been playing we could get Te'o for MLB and leave Burfict outside. I'd like that a lot.
[/quote]
actually re-sign Howard, send Burfict to strong side and draft Te'o. Hell yeah!

[Lewdog]

Dhani Jones is still traveling the globe.

[Lewdog]

One bright spot last night was seeing Still playing more. I wonder why Thompson isn't getting in there much. If Jason Allen can ever come back to playing, that might help, but why isn't Iloka getting some snaps? Where is Robert Sands? Is Sands even still on the team? He shows up on the roster but haven't seen him since the preseason games.

[Madieu Superstar]

[quote name='Lewdog' timestamp='1350927883' post='1173731']
One bright spot last night was seeing Still playing more. I wonder why Thompson isn't getting in there much. If Jason Allen can ever come back to playing, that might help, but why isn't Iloka getting some snaps? Where is Robert Sands? Is Sands even still on the team? He shows up on the roster but haven't seen him since the preseason games.
[/quote]

Sands is on IR. Which brings up another spot in which the organization failed miserably this offseason. They counted on Taylor Mays to be the starter and he was benched one half into his first game of the season.

Same goes for the WR- Marvin going on and on about how we didn't "lose" any WR this off-season, we "let them go". Turns out, we replaced them with nothing better. Still can't get separation, still can't make contested catches. Please leave Marvin. Maybe we'll end up worse, but at least we won't be teased every fall, only to see the same train wreck all over again.

[Lewdog]

[quote name='Madieu Superstar' timestamp='1350928772' post='1173735']
Sands is on IR. Which brings up another spot in which the organization failed miserably this offseason. They counted on Taylor Mays to be the starter and he was benched one half into his first game of the season.

Same goes for the WR- Marvin going on and on about how we didn't "lose" any WR this off-season, we "let them go". Turns out, we replaced them with nothing better. Still can't get separation, still can't make contested catches. Please leave Marvin. Maybe we'll end up worse, but at least we won't be teased every fall, only to see the same train wreck all over again.
[/quote]

There are several reasons why Bengal WRs aren't getting open. First you have to start out with the play calling. At times it seems as if the Steelers knew what routes were going to be run out of certain formations. Gruden has to mix things up better. Secondly some of these guys aren't running great routes. Sometimes I saw WRs making looping 'out' patterns instead of crisp changes in direction. Another problem is Dalton seems to have less throwing lanes created by his line. The linemen need to be 'punching the gut' of the defensive line to keep their hands down, or instead have Dalton taking 5 step drops instead of 3. The Bengals also seem to lack very many back shoulder passes. Lastly the Bengals HAVE to set up some more deep pass plays. Defenses can let their LBers and safeties to fill the box because Dalton's throw are all short of intermediate routes. Also, because all these extra guys are in the box, it absolutely kills the running game.

[Le Tigre]

So what are you saying, Go...dump your second-year pro bowl QB because he isn't Dree Brees?

There are a lot of NFL teams who would have to do that then.

[BigDawgBengal]

I don't understand the hate on Dalton. Sure he has not played well but he has not had much help either. He does not have a number two WR, no running game, and Gruden is getting out coached. Plus it's just his second year. Everyone's love child from last year Cam Newton is playing just as bad.

If Dalton had not shown flashes of being good then maybe I would be concerned. He will end up being a good QB.

[Lewdog]

[quote name='Le Tigre' timestamp='1350931269' post='1173748']
So what are you saying, Go...dump your second-year pro bowl QB because he isn't Dree Brees?

There are a lot of NFL teams who would have to do that then.
[/quote]

Is this post aimed at me? My biggest problem is the play calling, and the WRs. Against the Browns, Gruden continually called for Gruden to roll out of the pocket and throw on the run. This week Gruden calls for almost every pass to be 20 yards or less. At one point late in the 3rd quarter, they popped up a stat showing Dalton had only thrown ONE pass over 20 yards. I'm not real sure what Gruden is thinking. The offense needs to keep the defense on their heels instead of allowing them to dictate the game. The announcers also pointed out how the Steelers had 8 or more guys in the box all game. The only way to stop that is run longer routes and make the Steelers stop it. If Green is double teamed EVERY play, someone else has to be open.

[Bengals1181]

[quote name='BigDawgBengal' timestamp='1350931803' post='1173753']
I don't understand the hate on Dalton. Sure he has not played well but he has not had much help either. He does not have a number two WR, no running game, and Gruden is getting out coached. Plus it's just his second year. Everyone's love child from last year Cam Newton is playing just as bad.

If Dalton had not shown flashes of being good then maybe I would be concerned. He will end up being a good QB.
[/quote]


yea, outside of the INT's every one of his stat lines are taking signficant bumps, and he's doing it without a running game and a suitable #2. He's also putting up better numbers in his sophomore year than the likes of Flacco and Ryan did early in their careers, and they both had good running games supporting them.

[Le Tigre]

I was asking our administrator, Lew. Your points are well-taken however.

[Sea Ray]

[indent=1]I'd like to see Marvin fired and replaced with Hue Jackson but I doubt that'll happen. It would at least show our fans that management isn't going to put up with the shit we saw last night...that such a performance is unacceptable[/indent]