How a Romney Loss Would Affect the GOP

[Orange 'n Black]

[url="http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/05/why-mitt-romney-loss-would-yield-deeper-recriminations-in-gop.html"]http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/05/why-mitt-romney-loss-would-yield-deeper-recriminations-in-gop.html[/url]

This article got me thinking on this subject. With the election tomorrow, whatever is going to happen is going to happen, and debates about it are pretty much finished. It would be good to get a more forward topic up for discussion on this board.

My gut feeling is that Obama will win, and it will cause a strong reformation in the GOP. It's long past time for them to create a more modern, sensible platform to stand on. Like the article says, there is very much a place in American politics for a small-government, conservative party. The problem with the current GOP is that they lay too many extremist, outdated window dressing policies on top of their core ideology.

Things I would hope to see out of a reconstituted GOP...

-Shift toward younger conservative voters. The extreme Tea Party ideologies are espoused primarily by older, hardcore conservatives.
-Focus on fiscal conservatism. This ought to be the GOP's strong suit. Debt and deficit are going to be big issues in the next election, and the next Republican candidate is going to require a detailed economic plan that third party analysts and independent voters can believe in.
-Step away from social conservatism. It's time to accept that society inexorably becomes more liberal. Outdated and inane positions on abortion, rape, birth control, gay marriage, and other issues have done nothing but hurt the GOP.
-Emphasize expertise in national security and foreign policy. This is another area that the GOP is supposed to be proficient in but has let go by the wayside, which is quite astounding considering the Obama administration is pretty lacking in FP. The "big stick" ideas of the GWB era are garbage. Intelligent and progressive action is required, and yes - the behemoth that is the DoD must no longer be a golden goose. This is an area of rampant waste.

As a conservative, I would love to have a Republican party that I can really get behind. As it exists, the party is doomed.

Thoughts?

[|Elflocko|]

Interesting take, as my gut has been telling me for months that Romney wins (a specter that I assure you I find truly horrifying), but should he lose it would certainly serve as a wake up call, as the Republican party as it is now is dysfunctional.

Other than that, I agree with everything you said and really think you hit the nail on the head. I'm sure most folks around here think that I woke up one morning after a long night sleeping with a copy of The God Delusion tucked beneath my pillow, rolled out of bed, and said, "Welp, now I'm a Socialist, atheist,tree-hugging liberal! Where are the slutty, sultry welfare queens with easy access to abortions?". I was in fact a Reagan Republican. Back in 2nd grade when we taught about voting and how to vote, I voted for Reagan. I supported Reagan, the first Bush, voted for Bush in the first Presidential Election in which I was eligible, voted for Dole, and then for Shrub the first time. Only vote I've cast that I've regretted.

Between slashing taxes, never once vetoing a spending bill (at least not a Republican one), the Patriot Act, and then wasting $6 TRILLION bombing the shit out of a bunch of brown people that never did a goddamn thing to us, I wrenched myself away from a party I no longer recognized. Throw in the religious zealotry, homophobia, misogyny, and the Teabagging nuttery, that party is ripe for an implosion.

Kick out the zealots, reign in the military, and stop giving fuckall what adults do in the privacy of their own home to their own bodies, and I might be able to at least stomach them...

[sois]

[quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1352150885' post='1177885']
[b]Kick out the zealots, reign in the military, and stop giving fuckall what adults do in the privacy of their own home to their own bodies, and I might be able to at least stomach them...[/b]
[/quote]

Isn't that what Libertarians are? Why can't people just vote for those dudes?

[Jamie_B]

Hopefully they return to the ideals of Lincoln but I'm not holding my breath

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='sois' timestamp='1352151800' post='1177894']
Isn't that what Libertarians are? Why can't people just vote for those dudes?
[/quote]

Libertarians are too close to anarchists for my taste.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1352151902' post='1177898']


Libertarians are too close to anarchists for my taste.
[/quote]

This times 1,000,000,000

They don't call it anarcho capitalism for nothing

[-GoBengals-]

what would a "new republican party" look like exactly?(this is a geniune question, not a smart ass remark, etc)

From as far back as i can remember, everything the republicans stand for is religion, control, war, and serving the upper classes in general. I cant wrap my head around how any modern twist on that would change anyones opinion on the party as a whole. In fact, Thats the only voters i see, to put it ignorantly, rich, religious racists who wish to only help themselves. I cant invision a republican party that drops the religious strong arm on many topics that effect many peoples way of life and happiness, i also dont see a bunch of religious nutbags being too happy about a change there.

from my chair, the GOP plays ONLY to the extremists in the above mentioned categories..at this stage in the world it seems to ONLY play to those audiences..

that and the groups who were raised republican and are just republican because they were raised to be so.

i am in no way trying to turn this into another shit show argument. I am curious what changes other could invision in their current state of existence to swing more voters their way..

the world as i see it today:

1. more people ahve less money
2. FAR fAR less people even beleive in God at all
3. being gay is more open and accepted
4. and with all of the teen pregnancy and "loose morals" being conservative seems like its fading..mostly people pretend they are so they can pick and choose what to hate, "my 14 yr old is pregnant but fuck those gays getting married"... type thing

JMO eager to here input from all sides on what a potential change would be both for swaying new voters and what it could mean for losing old ones..

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' timestamp='1352148707' post='1177877']
[url="http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/05/why-mitt-romney-loss-would-yield-deeper-recriminations-in-gop.html"]http://www.thedailyb...ons-in-gop.html[/url]

This article got me thinking on this subject. With the election tomorrow, whatever is going to happen is going to happen, and debates about it are pretty much finished. It would be good to get a more forward topic up for discussion on this board.

My gut feeling is that Obama will win, and it will cause a strong reformation in the GOP. It's long past time for them to create a more modern, sensible platform to stand on. Like the article says, there is very much a place in American politics for a small-government, conservative party. The problem with the current GOP is that they lay too many extremist, outdated window dressing policies on top of their core ideology.

Things I would hope to see out of a reconstituted GOP...

-Shift toward younger conservative voters. The extreme Tea Party ideologies are espoused primarily by older, hardcore conservatives.
-Focus on fiscal conservatism. This ought to be the GOP's strong suit. Debt and deficit are going to be big issues in the next election, and the next Republican candidate is going to require a detailed economic plan that third party analysts and independent voters can believe in.
-Step away from social conservatism. It's time to accept that society inexorably becomes more liberal. Outdated and inane positions on abortion, rape, birth control, gay marriage, and other issues have done nothing but hurt the GOP.
-Emphasize expertise in national security and foreign policy. This is another area that the GOP is supposed to be proficient in but has let go by the wayside, which is quite astounding considering the Obama administration is pretty lacking in FP. The "big stick" ideas of the GWB era are garbage. Intelligent and progressive action is required, and yes - the behemoth that is the DoD must no longer be a golden goose. This is an area of rampant waste.

As a conservative, I would love to have a Republican party that I can really get behind. As it exists, the party is doomed.

Thoughts?
[/quote]
[quote name='Elflocko' timestamp='1352150885' post='1177885']
Interesting take, as my gut has been telling me for months that Romney wins (a specter that I assure you I find truly horrifying), but should he lose it would certainly serve as a wake up call, as the Republican party as it is now is dysfunctional.

Other than that, I agree with everything you said and really think you hit the nail on the head. I'm sure most folks around here think that I woke up one morning after a long night sleeping with a copy of The God Delusion tucked beneath my pillow, rolled out of bed, and said, "Welp, now I'm a Socialist, atheist,tree-hugging liberal! Where are the slutty, sultry welfare queens with easy access to abortions?". I was in fact a Reagan Republican. Back in 2nd grade when we taught about voting and how to vote, I voted for Reagan. I supported Reagan, the first Bush, voted for Bush in the first Presidential Election in which I was eligible, voted for Dole, and then for Shrub the first time. Only vote I've cast that I've regretted.

Between slashing taxes, never once vetoing a spending bill (at least not a Republican one), the Patriot Act, and then wasting $6 TRILLION bombing the shit out of a bunch of brown people that never did a goddamn thing to us, I wrenched myself away from a party I no longer recognized. Throw in the religious zealotry, homophobia, misogyny, and the Teabagging nuttery, that party is ripe for an implosion.

Kick out the zealots, reign in the military, and stop giving fuckall what adults do in the privacy of their own home to their own bodies, and I might be able to at least stomach them...
[/quote]

This is exactly the way I feel, and I kinda had the same gradual alienation experience Elflocko described. I just cannot get behind the Republicans as they currently exist, even if I try to justify it by single vote issues like gun ownership, which I strongly believe in.


[quote name='Dalton4HOF' timestamp='1352152220' post='1177903']
what would a "new republican party" look like exactly?(this is a geniune question, not a smart ass remark, etc)

[/quote]

It would essentially look like [b]Orange 'n Black[/b] described it. In other words, a return to what they used to stand for, not this nutbar mess that they have morphed into.

[-GoBengals-]

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' timestamp='1352148707' post='1177877']
Things I would hope to see out of a reconstituted GOP...

-Shift toward younger conservative voters. The extreme Tea Party ideologies are espoused primarily by older, hardcore conservatives.
-Focus on fiscal conservatism. This ought to be the GOP's strong suit. Debt and deficit are going to be big issues in the next election, and the next Republican candidate is going to require a detailed economic plan that third party analysts and independent voters can believe in.
-Step away from social conservatism. It's time to accept that society inexorably becomes more liberal. Outdated and inane positions on abortion, rape, birth control, gay marriage, and other issues have done nothing but hurt the GOP.
-Emphasize expertise in national security and foreign policy. This is another area that the GOP is supposed to be proficient in but has let go by the wayside, which is quite astounding considering the Obama administration is pretty lacking in FP. The "big stick" ideas of the GWB era are garbage. Intelligent and progressive action is required, and yes - the behemoth that is the DoD must no longer be a golden goose. This is an area of rampant waste.

As a conservative, I would love to have a Republican party that I can really get behind. As it exists, the party is doomed.

Thoughts?
[/quote]

Sorry i missed this part of your post originally, i am at work and have been back and forth working and posting, anywho..

many of the things you list, as i mentioned in my other post, are things that a good chunk of americans base their votes on. The abortion, gay marriage, religion, etc. What happens to those voters with "their party" "turning their backs on their beliefs".. i am legally related to people who think this way, so I know it exists. do they keep tagging along with the GOP, I cant imagine them going to the other side, do you think they would lose ANYONE changing its stance? The current position seems like the easy way out(which both parties clearly take) appealing to racists, religious extremists, and the rich guarantees them 30-40% of the population. They just arent making any ground to grab the extra 11-21% of the country to win regularly. With a large portion of the country down financially, the the reality and accusations of presidents and vice presidents making decisions about trillions in spending and americans lives based on things that directly profit their friends and families isnt doing them any favors. the whole Blood for oil perception is brutal to the younger generations. for the most part the 18-30 crowd isnt wealthy and has friends and family members being killed in these wars. Coming to colorado i was shocked at how many anti-republican military personnel i have encountered..

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1352154543' post='1177920']
This is exactly the way I feel, and I kinda had the same gradual alienation experience Elflocko described. I just cannot get behind the Republicans as they currently exist, even if I try to justify it by single vote issues like gun ownership, which I strongly believe in.




It would essentially look like [b]Orange 'n Black[/b] described it. In other words, a return to what they used to stand for, not this nutbar mess that they have morphed into.
[/quote]

how the hell did i miss all of that?

[MichaelWeston]

Here is how I view republicans

[url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/05/price-gouging-after-sandy_n_2076304.html?1352138289&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009"]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/05/price-gouging-after-sandy_n_2076304.html?1352138289&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009[/url]

A hurricane hits an area. How can I make a buck off of it? I guarantee you those people selling the gas are not democrats.

[T-Dub]

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' timestamp='1352148707' post='1177877']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]My gut feeling is that Obama will win, and it will cause a strong reformation in the GOP. It's long past time for them to create a more modern, sensible platform to stand on.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

I'd like to think so, but I don't buy it. King George II left a steaming pile of shit in the oval office on his way out, but here we are 4 years later and people are mad at his replacement because you can still kinda smell it. Palin was a joke to anyone that's not batshit and we're still seriously contemplating the same group of robber-barons getting behind the wheel for another 4 years.

No, I don't see the Republican party changing their platform either way. Call me a cynic but I think Romney's supporters outside the inner circle of rich white people are essentially voting against their own circumstances. The Republican machine has done a good job of convincing them to blame a one-term President for everything that is wrong with their lives. I don't think it was all Shrub either, fwiw. There are larger changes happening in this world and it's not much fun to be poor anywhere. When you add in bigoted/racist and ignorant, their lives probably suck. The last person anyone blames for their circumstances is themselves, you know?

A perfect example would be the "welfare queen" character they keep bringing up. They never explicitly say so, but it's very clearly implied that that "welfare queen" is from the inner city, and by extension not white. They aren't talking about Meth Addict Sue with the 9 kids in the trailer park and the Romney sign in their yard "cuz at least he ain't no culured". No, these welfare cheats are all people of color, and they're all in the ghetto. They don't have to come out and say it because they know their supporters are going to think it if they just word things correctly, like how I didn't have to tell you Meth-head Sue is white. Corporate welfare? WTF is that? Again, it's always "them" that are the problem, and never ourselves.

No, if a policy of xenophobia and hate was going to capsize them it would have already done so. I used to think it was going to tank the Republican party like you say, but the fact is that pandering to it has actually gotten them into a dead heat with Obama. There are more people like that out there than I wanted to admit.. In fact there's one small consolation if Romney wins; at least that segment of the population will be out in the open, without the pillowcases on their heads if you will. Either way it's time to stop pretending like the racist and evangelical are a tiny splinter group because the closeness of this election proves there are way more of them in this country than we like to consider. We have to recognize it's [i]not[/i] a small minority and expose them for what they are if we want to put an end to it.

Anyway pardon the rant but hopefully that makes some sense. Short answer; wishful thinking.

edit: I'm not saying that everyone voting for Romney is automatically racist, but if you think that's not a very large segment of his supporters you're kidding yourself. I don't think he's expected to win most Southern states because of his charming personality.

[|Elflocko|]

[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1352158610' post='1177939']

No, if a policy of xenophobia and hate was going to capsize them it would have already done so. I used to think it was going to tank the Republican party like you say, but the fact is that pandering to it has actually got them into a dead heat with Obama. There are more people like that out there than I wanted to admit.. In fact there's one small consolation if Romney wins; at least that segment of the population will be out in the open, without the sheets on their heads if you will. Either way it's time to stop pretending like the racist and evangelical are a tiny splinter group because the closeness of this election proves there are way more of them in this country than we like to consider. We have to stop pretending it's a small minority and expose them for what they are if we want to put an end to it.


edit: I'm not saying that everyone voting for Romney is automatically racist, but if you think that's not a very large segment of his supporters you're kidding yourself. I don't think he's expected to win most Southern states because of his charming personality.
[/quote]

True enough; I had higher hopes for my fellow countrymen, but I should have known better....

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='MichaelWeston' timestamp='1352156870' post='1177933']
Here is how I view republicans

[url="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/05/price-gouging-after-sandy_n_2076304.html?1352138289&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009"]http://www.huffingto...kusaolp00000009[/url]

A hurricane hits an area. How can I make a buck off of it? I guarantee you those people selling the gas are not democrats.
[/quote]


Shit like this pisses me off.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1352158610' post='1177939']
I'd like to think so, but I don't buy it. King George II left a steaming pile of shit in the oval office on his way out, but here we are 4 years later and people are mad at his replacement because you can still kinda smell it. Palin was a joke to anyone that's not batshit and we're still seriously contemplating the same group of robber-barons getting behind the wheel for another 4 years.

No, I don't see the Republican party changing their platform either way. Call me a cynic but I think Romney's supporters outside the inner circle of rich white people are essentially voting against their own circumstances. The Republican machine has done a good job of convincing them to blame a one-term President for everything that is wrong with their lives. I don't think it was all Shrub either, fwiw. There are larger changes happening in this world and it's not much fun to be poor anywhere. When you add in bigoted/racist and ignorant, their lives probably suck. The last person anyone blames for their circumstances is themselves, you know?

A perfect example would be the "welfare queen" character they keep bringing up. They never explicitly say so, but it's very clearly implied that that "welfare queen" is from the inner city, and by extension not white. They aren't talking about Meth Addict Sue with the 9 kids in the trailer park and the Romney sign in their yard "cuz at least he ain't no culured". No, these welfare cheats are all people of color, and they're all in the ghetto. They don't have to come out and say it because they know their supporters are going to think it if they just word things correctly, like how I didn't have to tell you Meth-head Sue is white. Corporate welfare? WTF is that? Again, it's always "them" that are the problem, and never ourselves.

No, if a policy of xenophobia and hate was going to capsize them it would have already done so. I used to think it was going to tank the Republican party like you say, but the fact is that pandering to it has actually got them into a dead heat with Obama. There are more people like that out there than I wanted to admit.. In fact there's one small consolation if Romney wins; at least that segment of the population will be out in the open, without the pillowcases on their heads if you will. Either way it's time to stop pretending like the racist and evangelical are a tiny splinter group because the closeness of this election proves there are way more of them in this country than we like to consider. We have to stop recognize it's [i]not[/i] a small minority and expose them for what they are if we want to put an end to it.

Anyway pardon the rant but hopefully that makes some sense. Short answer; wishful thinking.

edit: I'm not saying that everyone voting for Romney is automatically racist, but if you think that's not a very large segment of his supporters you're kidding yourself. I don't think he's expected to win most Southern states because of his charming personality.
[/quote]

Good post. This is kinda where I am at now politically too. I lean conservative on some issues, liberal on others...but the Republican Party isn't recognizable to me now by the standards that I used to apply when I would consider voting for them. When I vote Republican, to paraphrase Bill Maher, I wanted a prick and a square. A father figure, if you will, to keep Mommy the Democrat from spending all the money. Sadly, that vision of the GOP sailed long ago and now both Parties waste breathtaking amounts of our money.

I read recently that 48% of Americans do not pay taxes. Apparently this is true, and if it is, its a travesty. I understand that a decent portion of that percentage are people that make too little money to pay into the system and I am fine with that. But who are these other people? I'm no big fan of the IRS but if I were in charge I would mercilessly pursue tax evaders, cheaters, etc. The problem with our government financially right now is that it spends more than it takes in and to compensate for that they "borrow" from our collective futures (until there is no future) or put it on the China credit card, which is amassing a staggering amount of interest/more debt. This cannot go on forever, or even much longer.

I desperately want the Republican Party to stand for its small government, fiscally conservative principles again because the country needs it. Unfortunately they also need to embrace more liberal principles like stop opposing abortion, marijuana, social programs that actually benefit people that need it, healthcare, etc or they will remain a pandering bunch of idiots that thinking people cannot in good faith vote for.

[T-Dub]

[quote name='Bunghole' timestamp='1352160290' post='1177954']
I desperately want the Republican Party to stand for its small government, fiscally conservative principles again because the country needs it.
[/quote]

Absolutely agree. There was little chance of me voting Republican after Shrub, but I was at least open to hearing what McCain had to say until he added Palin to the ticket. Even better would be an end to the puppet show of either-or politics between the two parties and the emergence of a viable alternative. There [i]have[/i] been other powerful political parties in our history, no reason it can't happen again.

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='T-Dub' timestamp='1352160729' post='1177958']
Absolutely agree. There was little chance of me voting Republican after Shrub, but I was at least open to hearing what McCain had to say until he added Palin to the ticket. Even better would be an end to the puppet show of either-or politics between the two parties and the emergence of a viable alternative. There [i]have[/i] been other powerful political parties in our history, no reason it can't happen again.
[/quote]

Yeah, Palin was an absolute dealbreaker for me too, because she is stupid and because of McCain's age. Palin as President was a terrifying concept. And to add to your last point, which I agree with...whatever happened to the concept of compromise in our governance? I am sure that it still happens to some degree, but I know for a fact that obstructionist politics are harmful to our nation. If a bill law or whatever is good for our country and its populace, then its good and the "other side" shouldn't oppose it just because of which Party created it. Its maddening to read stuff coming out of Republicans mouths talking about how they will vote against something just to try to score political points against Obama or the Democrats. It tells me that they don't even bother to consider the language or ramifications of proposed legislation...all they need to know is that if the "other side" authored it, it's an automatic vote against it, no matter the content.

[T-Dub]

There are other ppl around here that follow this stuff much more closely (for a living?) but my impression is that Obama hasn't even been able to count on his own party. Don't get me wrong, I'm not portraying him as a rebel/outsider because that ship has sailed. A bigger problem was that a lot of his supporters didn't show up for the 2010 elections.

[Orange 'n Black]

Lots of good posts here. Remember that a wholesale change in the aims and ideals of a party is not unprecedented, especially when that party is under siege. The conservative revolution under Goldwater basically flipped the roles of the two parties and laid the seeds of the current Republican base in the south. Reagan changed the party's identity on economic issues and really defined them as the gung-ho military-industrial party. The DLC conversion of the Democrats under Clinton in the late Reagan/early Bush I years gave that party the identity it has today.

I agree wholeheartedly with Bunghole's point about bringing the GOP back to its fiscally conservative roots. As a conservative by nature I strongly believe that a real, HONESTLY fiscally conservative party is what is needed to drag this country out of the debt crisis. It's the biggest threat to our national security, future, and sovereignty across the rest of my lifetime. I know enough about economics to understand that deficit spending is not always evil (and is in fact beneficial when used properly in a bad economy) but we are reaching a point that is untenable.

I want to believe the best about this reformation, but I also see the GOP's rising stars - Rubio, Ryan, guys who embrace these Tea Party ideas. It doesn't give me a lot of hope.

[|Bunghole|]

Jindal out of Lousiana (I believe...of all places...talk about a place that's as politically corrupt as say, Chicago) was viewed as a rising star in the GOP. Don't know much about him.

[|Elflocko|]

I've been impressed with Ryan Sandoval, Nevada's governor. I didn't vote for him initially and was quite frankly disgusted by our options in that election, and I believed he was yet another corporatist, Ayn Rand crotch-sniffer. So far he's proven me wrong by standing up to the corporate interests and being pretty damn liberal socially for a Republican. Unless Catherine Cortez Masto runs against him next time he'll probably get my vote...

[Homer_Rice]

Unfortunately for America, a Romney loss probably will do the opposite of what most people hope. There are a lot of folks in the Rep party that think Romney is a trimmer and a compromiser, and if he loses, that will serve as a confirmation for many of them that what they need is not another trimmer, but a more bona-fide true believer. In other words, a double-down on crazy.

The GOP will not reform itself in any way against the wishes of the corporate interests which dictate it's mechanics and policy. They may become less relevant*, especially if the economy takes another dive in the next four years--a highly likely possibility even with a Dem admin.

Note this, too. The more sane Republicans are drifting away from the party as it becomes more and more evident that the practical foundation of the party is based on, well, let's call it what it is--obstruction, deceit and manipulation. What is a shame in all this is that there are a number of decent philosophical positions associated with the Reps that, if articulated better, might be a font for putting the party back together on a firm basis. Ideas about liberty, personal responsibility, entrepreneurial ambition, and some of the moral social issues such as the nature of life and faith in a power(s) that resides outside of one's skin, etc... are deserving of a serious place in the dialogue among citizens.

But what we essentially have are cartoon-ish presentations of these ideas that pander to the ignorati for what amounts to be primarily venal purposes by those whose run the party such that reasonable discussion becomes relegated to the fringes.

It's a shame, but if the Reps win tomorrow, they'll try to implement the Ryan budget and thus further accelerate the deterioration of this economy and this country. If they lose tomorrow, then most of them will see the loss as all the more reason to keep doing what they are doing--only louder and more obstreperously. Emotions will rule, the power of ideas will be further diluted, and we can expect a lot more violence.

*edit to clarify: Less relevant in the sense that in a crisis situation, folks tend to look for leadership and let's face it, where are the leaders in the Rep party? On the other hand, the party, in the process of doubling down, might be still relevant in the sense that their penchant for obstructionism will have an influence on events.

[Orange 'n Black]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1352167146' post='1178018']
Unfortunately for America, a Romney loss probably will do the opposite of what most people hope. There are a lot of folks in the Rep party that think Romney is a trimmer and a compromiser, and if he loses, that will serve as a confirmation for many of them that what they need is not another trimmer, but a more bona-fide true believer. In other words, a double-down on crazy.

The GOP will not reform itself in any way against the wishes of the corporate interests which dictate it's mechanics and policy. They may become less relevant*, especially if the economy takes another dive in the next four years--a highly likely possibility even with a Dem admin.

Note this, too. The more sane Republicans are drifting away from the party as it becomes more and more evident that the practical foundation of the party is based on, well, let's call it what it is--obstruction, deceit and manipulation. What is a shame in all this is that there are a number of decent philosophical positions associated with the Reps that, if articulated better, might be a font for putting the party back together on a firm basis. Ideas about liberty, personal responsibility, entrepreneurial ambition, and some of the moral social issues such as the nature of life and faith in a power(s) that resides outside of one's skin, etc... are deserving of a serious place in the dialogue among citizens.

But what we essentially have are cartoon-ish presentations of these ideas that pander to the ignorati for what amounts to be primarily venal purposes by those whose run the party such that reasonable discussion becomes relegated to the fringes.

It's a shame, but if the Reps win tomorrow, they'll try to implement the Ryan budget and thus further accelerate the deterioration of this economy and this country. If they lose tomorrow, then most of them will see the loss as all the more reason to keep doing what they are doing--only louder and more obstreperously. Emotions will rule, the power of ideas will be further diluted, and we can expect a lot more violence.

*edit to clarify: Less relevant in the sense that in a crisis situation, folks tend to look for leadership and let's face it, where are the leaders in the Rep party? On the other hand, the party, in the process of doubling down, might be still relevant in the sense that their penchant for obstructionism will have an influence on events.
[/quote]

Your last point is what makes me more optimistic for the better outcome. You're right, they don't have a leader, and these sort of reforms coalesce around a leader. Goldwater, Reagan, Clinton, Obama. Who is the leader that will drive the GOP further right? I can't think of anyone. Then again, I can't think of anyone who will drive them to sensibility too.

My main reason for optimism in a positive reform is that, for all the rhetoric and crazy ideologies, politicians are not stupid. Republican leadership is very aware that (assuming Obama wins) they just lost to the most vulnerable incumbent since Jimmy Carter after quite literally doing everything they could to ensure he only lasted one term. Is the solution to dig deeper into a strategy that didn't work?

[Jim Finklestein]

Aren't the more sane conservatives actually looked down on by the GOP and called such things as RINO's (Republican in Name Only).

[|Bunghole|]

[quote name='Homer_Rice' timestamp='1352167146' post='1178018']
obstreperously.
[/quote]
[url="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obstreperous"]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/obstreperous[/url]

Damn. Learn a new thing every day!

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' timestamp='1352171354' post='1178049']
Your last point is what makes me more optimistic for the better outcome. You're right, they don't have a leader, and these sort of reforms coalesce around a leader. Goldwater, Reagan, Clinton, Obama. Who is the leader that will drive the GOP further right? I can't think of anyone. Then again, I can't think of anyone who will drive them to sensibility too.

My main reason for optimism in a positive reform is that, for all the rhetoric and crazy ideologies, politicians are not stupid. Republican leadership is very aware that (assuming Obama wins) they just lost to the most vulnerable incumbent since Jimmy Carter after quite literally doing everything they could to ensure he only lasted one term. Is the solution to dig deeper into a strategy that didn't work?
[/quote]

Is it even possible for the GOP in its current configuration to go even further to the right? God I hope not. I hope that they see as you do, that they have failed as a political party by their pandering and accept the fact that the American people will only embrace them again if they return to their core values, many of which I disagree with, but at least it would be recognizable.
[quote name='Jim Finklestein' timestamp='1352171421' post='1178050']
Aren't the more sane conservatives actually looked down on by the GOP and called such things as RINO's (Republican in Name Only).
[/quote]

Hey! I resemble your remark! I am a "sane" (sometimes) conservative that's utterly disgusted with the direction of the GOP. This current iteration of the formerly greatest political party in our history (along with the Whigs, which is kinda the same thing, all things considered, Reconstruction of the Civil War aside....if that can even be cast aside) is scary and unfamiliar to me. I cannot vote for it. Corporate money whores would be a better name for this party. Not that the Dems are much (if any) better at this point.

[Jamie_B]

[quote name='Orange 'n Black' timestamp='1352171354' post='1178049']
Your last point is what makes me more optimistic for the better outcome. You're right, they don't have a leader, and these sort of reforms coalesce around a leader. Goldwater, Reagan, Clinton, Obama. Who is the leader that will drive the GOP further right? I can't think of anyone. Then again, I can't think of anyone who will drive them to sensibility too.

My main reason for optimism in a positive reform is that, for all the rhetoric and crazy ideologies, politicians are not stupid. Republican leadership is very aware that (assuming Obama wins) they just lost to the most vulnerable incumbent since Jimmy Carter after quite literally doing everything they could to ensure he only lasted one term. Is the solution to dig deeper into a strategy that didn't work?
[/quote]

I think they rally around Paul Ryan, they dude is evil, but he is slick as hell too and not someone to take lightly.