-GoBengals- Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 6 years is the split between value in new vs used according to my calculations and a piece consumer reports did many years back.... if you want a new car every 5 years, get used, otherwise buy new, i will never ever buy a used car... @actium....as for the getting screwed part.. its pretty esy to find out what people are paying and what the car cost the dealer, and negotiating via email is best, get every aspect of the deal in email writing, including all fees, etc.. edmunds and a few other sites can get you invoice cost and a list, by zip code of what most people paid... im not sure what your friend considers getting screwed, they are going to profit, it IS a business... in order to save anything at all on a used car it has to be 3+ years old, at that point even only having it 7 years leaves you with a 10 year old car.. my wifes family only bought used cards, they have never not had a car payment ever, every 5 years they get a new, used car, my wife has her 2003 sentra for 9 years, 4 years of no car payment... just got her a brand new CRV last year.. which will probably get passed onto my son when he turned 16 in 9 years.. i have never had a car payment myself, turned 16 got the family station wagon, graduated high school got a new '99 civic, drive it 10-11 years, sold it for $3,000 was given my moms 2004 accord that she bought new, in 1-2 years ill buy my first car for myself...but it will be new, and i will keep it for 10 years at least... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 6 years is the split between value in new vs used according to my calculations and a piece consumer reports did many years back.... if you want a new car every 5 years, get used, otherwise buy new, i will never ever buy a used car... @actium....as for the getting screwed part.. its pretty esy to find out what people are paying and what the car cost the dealer, and negotiating via email is best, get every aspect of the deal in email writing, including all fees, etc.. edmunds and a few other sites can get you invoice cost and a list, by zip code of what most people paid... im not sure what your friend considers getting screwed, they are going to profit, it IS a business... in order to save anything at all on a used car it has to be 3+ years old, at that point even only having it 7 years leaves you with a 10 year old car.. my wifes family only bought used cards, they have never not had a car payment ever, every 5 years they get a new, used car, my wife has her 2003 sentra for 9 years, 4 years of no car payment... just got her a brand new CRV last year.. which will probably get passed onto my son when he turned 16 in 9 years.. i have never had a car payment myself, turned 16 got the family station wagon, graduated high school got a new '99 civic, drive it 10-11 years, sold it for $3,000 was given my moms 2004 accord that she bought new, in 1-2 years ill buy my first car for myself...but it will be new, and i will keep it for 10 years at least... AAA members can get invoice prices as well. I'm not sure what he means by screwed either LOL. But it was good advice when everyone else was giving me tall tales about their negotiating prowess. I got a fair deal for sure, although they did try to trick me. I qualified for the 0% APR with a $750 instant rebate (the rebate came after haggling for the price--basically an additional amount off) and they kept trying to convince me to take a 2.9% APR with $2500 instant rebate. I did a quick interest calculation and said I would be paying thousands more over the life of the loan if I took the higher APR/rebate package. They all have their machinations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 AAA members can get invoice prices as well. I'm not sure what he means by screwed either LOL. But it was good advice when everyone else was giving me tall tales about their negotiating prowess. I got a fair deal for sure, although they did try to trick me. I qualified for the 0% APR with a $750 instant rebate (the rebate came after haggling for the price--basically an additional amount off) and they kept trying to convince me to take a 2.9% APR with $2500 instant rebate. I did a quick interest calculation and said I would be paying thousands more over the life of the loan if I took the higher APR/rebate package. They all have their machinations We'll take the higher rate and cash for a 6 year loan then pay it off in 2. Seems to work out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actium Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 We'll take the higher rate and cash for a 6 year loan then pay it off in 2. Seems to work out... Maybe if you have that kind of $, I certainly don't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 27, 2013 Report Share Posted June 27, 2013 Maybe if you have that kind of $, I certainly don't We both work, don't have kids, and I'm a real cheap ass when it comes to how much I'll pay for a car so it usually works out. Don't think we'll be able to pull that on the wife's next car though as she's eyeing Lexus and Audi... :glare: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MULLY Posted June 28, 2013 Report Share Posted June 28, 2013 This is going to come off as my bashing on America again but I have to. I would never buy a used car in the US. Especially a "clean, low mileage" used car. I'm sure there are cars that people just couldn't afford to keep and had to get rid of them, but my mind would always be wondering "what is wrong with it?!?" Here in Japan, I wouldn't even hesitate to buy a used car. The reason I say that is because for some odd reason Japanese people really take care of their cars. Regular maintenance, regular inspections, etc... If you're going to buy a used car or motorcycle this is the place to be. On top of that, by law, the car shop has to tell you exactly what is wrong with it, if there is anything. But, even if there was something wrong, the car shop fixed it and they give you a year or 2 on their repairs. In the situation at hand, seeing as how you're going to be keeping this car until it dies, you might as well buy a new one so you know everything about it. Either way you're going to have to make a car payment, might as well be on something new. MULLY my car will be paid for in December! Woohooo!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sois Posted June 28, 2013 Report Share Posted June 28, 2013 Here in Japan, I wouldn't even hesitate to buy a used car. The reason I say that is because for some odd reason Japanese people really take care of their cars. Regular maintenance, regular inspections, etc... Honour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Finklestein Posted June 28, 2013 Report Share Posted June 28, 2013 Be careful with the contract. One thing I noticed the last time I went looking for a car was the dealers have this thing where they quote you payments at a certain interest rate. What they do is ammortize the loan over 72 months and you pay that payment for 60 months and end up with a balance at the end of the deal that you have to either refinance or eat on a trade in. Never saw this in the States but they do it here in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 28, 2013 Report Share Posted June 28, 2013 Another thing that I didnt really admit earlier, is that I hate dealing with car salesmen and I feel more confident with the new car vs the used car. I feel like there is less room to scam me. A lot of people are like that... I'm the complete opposite. I enjoy the "confrontation"... and that is how I look at it. It's a battle of wills. Someone is going to get screwed - either me or them. And, I make sure it isn't me. You just have to be ready - and willing to tell them - that there are 10-15 other dealerships that sell cars and you'll just go to one of them. When you buy used - rule of thumb... go to nada.com and pull up its value based on either VIN and options or just by model and options... They'll have 5 values there - loan, trade, and then 3 retail values based on condition of car. When I've bought used I've always been between loan and trade (closer to loan) to below loan value. Don't ever pay more than trade value on a used vehicle... if the dealer doesn't want to work with you - be willing to walk away. I've helped about 5-6 family members shop / haggle for vehicles - just have to be unemotional about the process and care less one way or the other about the car... until you get the car you wanted at the price YOU wanted to pay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 28, 2013 Report Share Posted June 28, 2013 order to save anything at all on a used car it has to bein 3+ years old, at that point even only having it 7 years leaves you with a 10 year old car.. Ummm... not sure how you can say that... in year 1 the vehicle depriciates between 15-18% from new car value. And, since the dealer either gave trade value on the car or bought at auction there is more room for negotiation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelWeston Posted June 28, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2013 A lot of people are like that... I'm the complete opposite. I enjoy the "confrontation"... and that is how I look at it. It's a battle of wills. That sounds exhausting and not very healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vol_Bengal Posted June 28, 2013 Report Share Posted June 28, 2013 That sounds exhausting and not very healthy. B) Actually not at all... there is a rush to it when you're going back and forth with the F&I guy with the sales guy just basically being an in-between. You're kind of telling each other to screw off as you counter offer back and forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange 'n Black Posted June 28, 2013 Report Share Posted June 28, 2013 They have alot of the free oil changes etc. When I called and asked about the 0% down, he told me that was for a different price then the one I was quoted on through the internet. Which didn't make much sense to me. He said it was a buy down rate 72 months is at 2.79%. Then you get it at the sticker price....huh? Said he can't combine offers then. Yeah, usually it's an either/or with certain rebates or a 0% APR. Do the math but the APR is almost always a better deal, especially at a 72 month term. HOWEVER - there's still no reason at all to pay sticker price. You negotiate a selling price THEN you get into rebates vs. low rate vs. whatever else they're offering. If they won't budge off sticker, walk away without another word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 28, 2013 Report Share Posted June 28, 2013 Yeah, usually it's an either/or with certain rebates or a 0% APR. Do the math but the APR is almost always a better deal, especially at a 72 month term. HOWEVER - there's still no reason at all to pay sticker price. You negotiate a selling price THEN you get into rebates vs. low rate vs. whatever else they're offering. If they won't budge off sticker, walk away without another word. Exactly. 1. Sticker 2. Trade In 3. Financing 4. Extras Just be prepared to walk away... **EDIT** Oh, and never give an answer to their question "How much do you want to pay per month?". You answer that question, and they've got you hooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eva4ben-gal Posted June 28, 2013 Report Share Posted June 28, 2013 That sounds exhausting and not very healthy. That's business, you leave emotion out of it and haggle dollars and cents. The dealer won't accept a deal that screws him over and you shouldn't either. He'll tell you you're being unreasonable and not leaving him any profit, maybe tell you he's losing money on the deal, all bullshit. If he wasn't making money off you he wouldn't be talking to you. Just stick to your guns and like others have said, don't be afraid to walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MULLY Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 Best deals on clean used cars found at Big Paul's. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CamkEyXdpkA MULLY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 Being in the car business, it sure is funny reading all of your posts. Here, let me give you some advice, right from the mouth of one of the devils that all of you are so worried about. 1st, new car vs used car. If you plan on keeping a car 10 years, like Weston wants, buy a 1 year old manufacturer's certified Used car. Don't get a "Dealer Certified" car, get one backed by the manufacturer. You generally get the same rate when you finance and to be frank, you generally get a better warranty than if you buy new. You can also get a car one to two levels better for the same money. Secondly, Don't buy more payment that you can handle for 60 months. So many people stretch and go 72 months and even 84 months on a car loan to get to payment, don't do it! Now, don't get me wrong, if the rate's the same at 66 months do it, but know what it costs for 60 months, and make that payment every month or a little more. Third, don't just do research on the car you want, do research on the dealer as well. Find out how long their Salesmen have been there. A store where most of the guys have been there 5,6 or even 10 years+ is what you're looking for. That's generally a store that isn't trying to sell you one car, they are trying to sell you 10 cars. They aren't going to beat you up, and their goal will be to establish a long term relationship. Fourth, if you are going to buy a car to keep for 10 years, buy the MANUFACTURER'S EXTENDED WARRANTY. Some of you will disagree with this and that's okay, but I'll tell you why. There is too much Technology in today's cars, and the Technology is expensive. Engines, Transmissions and drive assemblies are pretty much bulletproof, that's why everybody gives you long warranties on them. The Technology that they have used to improve the quality? Not so much. Think of it this way, you wouldn't take your Ipad and stick in in the freezer every night, and then put it in the oven every morning and expect it to last 6,7 or 10 years, but you expect the Ipad in the middle of your dashboard to do that? But ask for a Discount! Generally, there is anywhere from a $600 to $1000 dollar mark up, don't pay all of it. Lastly, do a little shopping. Find a place and a person you really like. If your only concern is price, then you will get only price. But if you want to have questions answered, if you want to be able to go back to find out about all the features on your car, if you want a place that's going to look out for you, it's okay to pay a little more. The mantra is true, you do get what you pay for. There are plenty of places today to do the research, be knowledgeable about price, but don't try to squeeze ever bit of profit out of the deal. I'll be totally frank, if you treat me with respect and show me you're knowledgeable, you'll get a fair deal, but if you come in as a pompous blowhard, I will try my best to fuck you or blow you out. The best customer I have may buy 40 cars in his life, a good salesperson sells 150 to 200 a year. I could go on and on, but if you have a particular question, PM me. You guys are my virtual friends, I'll at least try to steer you in the right direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 A friend of mine gave great advice before we bought the car. "Forget about everyone who says they got $10,000 knocked off--they are full of shit. Just acknowledge that you are going to get screwed, but at the end of the day, you will have an awesome vehicle to console you." You can minimize the scam, but they are still gonna get you somehow on something. You're shopping at the wrong place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 Appreciate the post, Kenneth, particularly since I'll be buying a car in the next 6 months. This time will be different for us as this will be the first time we've ever bought a car without the Z Plan from Ford or Option 1 from GM. That always made things easy as the price was the price and we just had to negotiate the rate and trade-in. I've never seen the point in being outwardly antagonistic towards the sales folks; I know *I* don't want to deal with someone who's a dick. I also agree with purchasing the extended warranty as we keep our vehicles for 10 years. It saved me a shitload of money on my current truck, though it ran out before the rear differential and both wheel bearings went out. :glare: What is your opinion on getting the\a price via the fleet or internet manager on the dealer's website? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|kennethmw| Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 Appreciate the post, Kenneth, particularly since I'll be buying a car in the next 6 months. This time will be different for us as this will be the first time we've ever bought a car without the Z Plan from Ford or Option 1 from GM. That always made things easy as the price was the price and we just had to negotiate the rate and trade-in. I've never seen the point in being outwardly antagonistic towards the sales folks; I know *I* don't want to deal with someone who's a dick. I also agree with purchasing the extended warranty as we keep our vehicles for 10 years. It saved me a shitload of money on my current truck, though it ran out before the rear differential and both wheel bearings went out. :glare: What is your opinion on getting the\a price via the fleet or internet manager on the dealer's website? It's not a bad option to do that. By the way, why are you not taking advantage of your Ford or GM discounts? Do you not get those any longer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 It's not a bad option to do that. By the way, why are you not taking advantage of your Ford or GM discounts? Do you not get those any longer? We still have access to those discounts but will no longer purchase any of their products for 2 reasons: Quality and Principle Quality: The last 3 Ford and GM products we have purchased have been garbage. My GMC Canyon is a prime example of the horrific design and shit engineering that sent GM into bankruptcy. I have had to replace the rear leaf springs (they cracked in half), replace both front wheel bearings, have the rear differential rebuilt, had to replace the thermostat (that under any other circumstances would be no big deal but the brain surgeons at GM thought it was a good idea to place underneath and behind the alternator so you have to partially pull the engine to replace it) and currently the ABS sensor is shot and the AC blower only runs on high. Most maddening of all has been the brake lamp switch, which is a tiny little part that sits atop the brake pedal and completes the circuit for the brake lights to illuminate. When it fails, you have no brake lights, or your brake lights are constantly illuminated, and there is no warning whatsoever unless someone rear-ends you. I've had to replace that part 6 fucking times because they can't figure out how to get a $3 part made in China to work. Oh, maybe that's the problem. All of this occurred in under 70,000 miles. My wife's "luxury" Lincoln is a piece of shit as well. While it is a fantastic performer on the freeway, the transmission is crap. It hard shifts between 1st and 2nd, and sometimes when hot does it so hard that she thinks she just got rear-ended. She has also had times when it wouldn't shift out of first gear. Every time we have the dealer(s) look at it we hear "We can't find anything wrong with it". Of course they can't. The rotors warp on that car every 15,000 miles no matter how you drive. We've been through 3 sets already. It's also had issues with the AC, the molding around the driver's seat simply sheared off one day, the drivers seat electronics have broken, and other miscellaneous pieces of trim have just broken off. Oh, and this car from an American company? Made in Mexico. I didn't realize that when she bought it or probably would have thought better of it. And sure, folks can bleat about "Well the quality has improved". Fuck that. I'm sick and tired of giving them tens of thousands of dollars on the chance that they might actually do it right this time. Principle: Ford and GM are in our DNA. My grandfather retired from GM (Frigidaire Division) my aunt retired from GM (Harrison Radiator) my dad retired from GM after 37 years. My father-in-law put in 37 years at Ford. My wife and I were both raised by those companies. (Incidentally, this was one of those "WTF?" moments when my wife and I first met. Her dad worked at the Lorain Ford Truck Plant, my dad worked at the Moraine GM Truck Plant. Weird shit.) Both men sacrificed their health and lives for those companies, and in the end they and their survivors got fucked. My dad was in finance and appropriations and his job was a pressure cooker. He had his first heart attack at the age of 46 sitting at his desk at the plant (the only reason he survived as the nurses started treating him there), has had 2 subsequent heart attacks, 3 quadruple bypasses and a couple of strokes. Most of these brought on by the stress of the job. He stuck with the job because of the pension and the healthcare, and because he had 3 kids at home and wanted to make sure my mom was taken care of if something happened to him. So here he is at the age of 77, looks like he's 97, can't walk and needs to take a line of pills the length of his arm just to keep breathing every day and what does GM do? They've cut his pension in half. Twice. That healthcare? Yeah, they basically pulled that and threw him into Medicare with that giant prescription doughnut hole so he's out of pocket hundreds every month for the medication he needs to survive. He gave his life and health for that company and they threw him to the wolves. Fuck GM. My father-in-law and mother-in-law got treated in a similar manner. He worked through pain and refused to go to the doctor because he was afraid of losing his job. He kept up until he collapsed on the floor of the assembly line. Turns out he had terminal esophageal and stomach cancer. He was dead in 16 months. My MIL has seen her survivor benefits reduced by 2/3rds, and her healthcare benefits just about eradicated. A couple of years back she found out two weeks after Ford informed her that her vision benefits were eliminated that she needed eye surgery or she would be blind within a year. What little insurance she had left declined to pay for any of it because they considered it cosmetic. No joke. We ended up paying out of pocket for her surgery, and let me tell you, that shit ain't cheap. Fuck Ford. Our next vehicle will be a Honda, Toyota, Subaru, or Mazda. If the model I like happens to be made here, bonus. However, I am done with the Big 3 and will no longer even consider one of their products. Purchasing another vehicle from them would do nothing but vindicate their betrayal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Bunghole| Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 i"m surprised to hear you say this about Ford. They were built as a company from the very beginning as being a company that took care of it's employees and paid them decent wages. And quite honestly, while I can't speak to the quality of their luxury brands like Lincoln, they've been making really solid cars for quite awhile now, particularly mid-sized passenger cars like the Fusion (which is an excellent car) and of course their trucks. There's a reason they didn't need a government handout to stay in business like stupid GM did. My Mustang is a really well built car and I particularly like it because it's a driver's car with very little in the way of electronic gadgetry. It has a loud stereo, power windows and locks, air and cruise control and traction control. And that's it. Not really much on it can go wrong and I have a lifetime powertrain warranty through the Toyota dealership I bought it from. Still, given your experience with your family members I can understand why you feel that way. Cutting legacy costs like long term benefits is pretty endemic in a lot of businesses these days. Benefits are going the way of the dinosaur in an effort to keep feeding the bottom line. Anyway, from your short list of manufacturers that you will buy from, I'm thinking a Subaru WRX STi is right in your wheelhouse. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 i"m surprised to hear you say this about Ford. They were built as a company from the very beginning as being a company that took care of it's employees and paid them decent wages. And quite honestly, while I can't speak to the quality of their luxury brands like Lincoln, they've been making really solid cars for quite awhile now, particularly mid-sized passenger cars like the Fusion (which is an excellent car) and of course their trucks. There's a reason they didn't need a government handout to stay in business like stupid GM did. My Mustang is a really well built car and I particularly like it because it's a driver's car with very little in the way of electronic gadgetry. It has a loud stereo, power windows and locks, air and cruise control and traction control. And that's it. Not really much on it can go wrong and I have a lifetime powertrain warranty through the Toyota dealership I bought it from. Still, given your experience with your family members I can understand why you feel that way. Cutting legacy costs like long term benefits is pretty endemic in a lot of businesses these days. Benefits are going the way of the dinosaur in an effort to keep feeding the bottom line. Anyway, from your short list of manufacturers that you will buy from, I'm thinking a Subaru WRX STi is right in your wheelhouse. :lol: I would, but the wife can't drive stick and there's no teaching her, :lol: I'm looking at the Scion FR-S\Subaru BRZ, Mazda 6 Diesel, and Honda Accord... ETA: And my Ranger was a piece of shit too. My luck with Ford = Not so great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MULLY Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 I'm not even sure I'd want a Japanese car that was made in America. MULLY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|Elflocko| Posted June 29, 2013 Report Share Posted June 29, 2013 I'm not even sure I'd want a Japanese car that was made in America. MULLY Nah, they do OK. The Japanese insist on the same quality controls and usually have a native there to make sure things are done right. Though the Mazda and FR-S are both made over there... :whistle: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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