The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly - Chargers

[Tigris]

 

again, he threw at 1.84 seconds.  There's no "Dalton threw it late" excuse on this one.

 

Now "Dalton threw it to the wrong guy" I think there is certainly a case for.

 

Then there's a schematic issue then because Gresham and everyone else is already turned around. Another thing, the defense does their job too. With the way those LBs looked, either Andy gave off some sort of clue (stare down) or the Chargers saw something on film and may have knew something was coming.

 

Also, the way goes run routes, the way they come off the line, even sometimes their body language tells defenders where the ball might be going or isn't going. We as fans never take that into consideration. I'm not saying that's the case here but it very well could be the case. I wonder if there are any tendencies the Bengals are unaware of that other teams have caught on?

[|SF2|]

 

again, he threw at 1.84 seconds.  There's no "Dalton threw it late" excuse on this one.  It's not like it was a quick pass to the flats.  1.84 seconds is incredibly quick for a pass over the middle.  

 

Now "Dalton threw it to the wrong guy" I think there is certainly a case for.

Again, Andy can see the coverage when he steps up to the line of scrimmage.  Its a quick read and very quick pass.     The ball should have been let go as soon as Gresh started his turn, not after he had completed it. 

[Bengals1181]

 

Then there's a schematic issue then because Gresham and everyone else is already turned around. Another thing, the defense does their job too. With the way those LBs looked, either Andy gave off some sort of clue (stare down) or the Chargers saw something on film and may have knew something was coming.

 

Also, the way goes run routes, the way they come off the line, even sometimes their body language tells defenders where the ball might be going or isn't going. We as fans never take that into consideration. I'm not saying that's the case here but it very well could be the case. I wonder if there are any tendencies the Bengals are unaware of that other teams have caught on?

 

 

good points.  I know Chad used to tip run plays at times.  

[Tigris]

One thing I can say for Jay: the run/pass guess % pre snap isn't even close of that to Bratkowski's. If Reggie went in that shuffle motion, it was a run. I haven't caught onto anything for Jay yet.

[mullichicken25]

 

Then there's a schematic issue then because Gresham and everyone else is already turned around. Another thing, the defense does their job too. With the way those LBs looked, either Andy gave off some sort of clue (stare down) or the Chargers saw something on film and may have knew something was coming.

 

Also, the way goes run routes, the way they come off the line, even sometimes their body language tells defenders where the ball might be going or isn't going. We as fans never take that into consideration. I'm not saying that's the case here but it very well could be the case. I wonder if there are any tendencies the Bengals are unaware of that other teams have caught on?

I was saying this right after the play, and I've been noticing it at least once or twice a week

 

There's a handful of plays that look like the D knew exactly what was going to happen.

[Bengals1181]

Again, Andy can see the coverage when he steps up to the line of scrimmage.  Its a quick read and very quick pass.     The ball should have been let go as soon as Gresh started his turn, not after he had completed it. 

 

 

he's still double covered.  That's why I say it was a bad read on Andy's part.  No matter when Dalton throws that, Gresham isn't going to be open.  He's sandwiched by two LB's.  

[|SF2|]

He isn't sandwiched.  Both LBs are a good 2 yards behind him.  Gresh made his cut back and stopped then the LBs reacted.  Andy then threw him the ball.

 

This goes on all the time.  Gresh is sent out a few yards downfield, stops and waits for the ball.  We need to get the ball to Gresh in full stride and let him truck mothers who dare get in his way. 

[Tigris]

 

He isn't sandwiched.  Both LBs are a good 2 yards behind him.  Gresh made his cut back and stopped then the LBs reacted.  Andy then threw him the ball.

 

This goes on all the time.  Gresh is sent out a few yards downfield, stops and waits for the ball.  We need to get the ball to Gresh in full stride and let him truck mothers who dare get in his way. 

 

Yes! Well, he has to catch it first for it to be effective.

[alleycat]

The ball should already be in the air.  Again, Andy waits too long on these types of plays.  The defenders were playing him off and I assume Andy knew Gresh's route so as soon as he started the turn, the ball should have been let go.   Brady lives for these easy pickens but he has a bit more experience.

Andy didn't wait too long. I wonder how many of you commenting on this particular throw have even gone back and watched the actual play (not the crap gif that 1181 kindly posted). If you do, you'll see that Andy didn't wait too long at all. Why?

Because he was progressing through his reads, starting with the sideline and then working his way back toward Gresham. Gresham was his THIRD read. As has already been correctly noted about the top two receivers (Hawkins and Eifert, it seems), they were bunched in such a way that they essentially covered themselves up with the defender.

In other words, Dalton got that ball out in under 2 seconds - to his third option. I'd call that pretty damned fast.

[WRAPradio]

Andy didn't wait too long. I wonder how many of you commenting on this particular throw have even gone back and watched the actual play (not the crap gif that 1181 kindly posted). If you do, you'll see that Andy didn't wait too long at all. Why?

Because he was progressing through his reads, starting with the sideline and then working his way back toward Gresham. Gresham was his THIRD read. As has already been correctly noted about the top two receivers (Hawkins and Eifert, it seems), they were bunched in such a way that they essentially covered themselves up with the defender.

In other words, Dalton got that ball out in under 2 seconds - to his third option. I'd call that pretty damned fast.

 

 

Or he was trying to look off the LBs to get Gresham a little more space  :shrug:

[Bengals1181]

Andy didn't wait too long. I wonder how many of you commenting on this particular throw have even gone back and watched the actual play (not the crap gif that 1181 kindly posted). If you do, you'll see that Andy didn't wait too long at all. Why?

Because he was progressing through his reads, starting with the sideline and then working his way back toward Gresham. Gresham was his THIRD read. As has already been correctly noted about the top two receivers (Hawkins and Eifert, it seems), they were bunched in such a way that they essentially covered themselves up with the defender.

In other words, Dalton got that ball out in under 2 seconds - to his third option. I'd call that pretty damned fast.

 

 

hey now, that's one of the better gifs I've made. :lol:

[alleycat]

Again, Andy can see the coverage when he steps up to the line of scrimmage.  Its a quick read and very quick pass.     The ball should have been let go as soon as Gresh started his turn, not after he had completed it.

And to finish my point, what you are saying makes perfect sense - if we are talking about his primary receiver. That wasn't Gresham. It was one of the tandem of Hawkins/Eifert. But they were covered so he went to number three, and, seeing a sliver of space, tried to stick it in.

So much of the Dalton criticism on this board is just like this. People have a conclusion they want to reach and they're willing to steamroll any facts that lie in the way. If his first option was Hawkins and then Eifert, are you still going to accuse him of taking too long to get it to Gresham?

Go back and watch the play on a real recording.

Or he was trying to look off the LBs to get Gresham a little more space  :shrug:

That could easily be as well. But the point remains that the look off would take time, and so the criticism that he didn't get Gresh the ball on time doesn't hold water.

[WRAPradio]

And to finish my point, what you are saying makes perfect sense - if we are talking about his primary receiver. That wasn't Gresham. It was one of the tandem of Hawkins/Eifert. But they were covered so he went to number three, and, seeing a sliver of space, tried to stick it in.

So much of the Dalton criticism on this board is just like this. People have a conclusion they want to reach and they're willing to steamroll any facts that lie in the way. If his first option was Hawkins and then Eifert, are you still going to accuse him of taking too long to get it to Gresham?

Go back and watch the play on a real recording.

That could easily be as well. But the point remains that the look off would take time, and so the criticism that he didn't get Gresh the ball on time doesn't hold water.

 

 

Unless he didn't need to look off the LBs and Gresh was the primary option.  Just playing devil's advocate...unless we know the play call we're all speculating.

[Orange 'n Black]

 

 

Unless he didn't need to look off the LBs and Gresh was the primary option.  Just playing devil's advocate...unless we know the play call we're all speculating.

 

Exactly this.

 

If the play was a quick hit to Gresham then Dalton threw it too late. There's no arguing that, on that play the ball must leave his hand on the last step of his drop, which was 2 steps in this case. He takes 2 steps, waits, throws.

 

If Gresham was his third/fourth read, he either had to try to fit that throw in or throw it away. 

[alleycat]

Unless he didn't need to look off the LBs and Gresh was the primary option.  Just playing devil's advocate...unless we know the play call we're all speculating.

I don't have to speculate when I can use my eyes to tell me what happened on the play. Go on, look, it's right there for all to see.

You guys are getting so desperate now that you're projecting onto Andy that he made an unnecssary (i.e. not play-called) look-off of two receivers in order to get the ball to a double-covered Gresham?

If that sounds ridiculous, it's because it is. And that's how far you have to go to make your condemn-Andy-in-all-cases logic work.

Your other option would be to watch the play and accept what happened on its face.:

The Bengals ran a play consisting of virtually all five of their receivers to run quick curls against the back 8; Dalton's first read was to Hawkins, whos man was playing well off, but Eifert's defender splits the receivers thereby making a throw vunerable to an easy pick six; Dalton quickly scans through Eifert to the next man, which is Gresham. And although he's double covered, he's now on his third read and so he tries to stick it in.

Frankly, I'm surprised no one is talking about Gresham's drop.

[WRAPradio]

I don't have to speculate when I can use my eyes to tell me what happened on the play. Go on, look, it's right there for all to see.

You guys are getting so desperate now that you're projecting onto Andy that he made an unnecssary (i.e. not play-called) look-off of two receivers in order to get the ball to a double-covered Gresham?

If that sounds ridiculous, it's because it is. And that's how far you have to go to make your condemn-Andy-in-all-cases logic work.

Your other option would be to watch the play and accept what happened on its face.:

The Bengals ran a play consisting of virtually all five of their receivers to run quick curls against the back 8; Dalton's first read was to Hawkins, whos man was playing well off, but Eifert's defender splits the receivers thereby making a throw vunerable to an easy pick six; Dalton quickly scans through Eifert to the next man, which is Gresham. And although he's double covered, he's now on his third read and so he tries to stick it in.

Frankly, I'm surprised no one is talking about Gresham's drop.

 

 

I'm more so defending the play call.  I do agree the ball could have come out quicker IF Gresh was the primary target, if he wasn't the primary receiver there's not much more Andy could have done.  Honestly I couldn't care less about this one play because we won the game.  Am I happy with Andy?  No.  Am I happy with Jay?  No.  With that being said, I don't think this one play looks bad on either of them, it's just a play that didn't work.  It happens in every game to every team.

 

The fact of the matter is you don't know who the primary receiver was so for you to adamantly defend something that you have no idea about is pretty silly on your part.  We all have our opinions, but you have to be open minded to the fact that you may be wrong since none of us know for sure.

[alleycat]

I'm more so defending the play call.  I do agree the ball could have come out quicker IF Gresh was the primary target, if he wasn't the primary receiver there's not much more Andy could have done.  Honestly I couldn't care less about this one play because we won the game.  Am I happy with Andy?  No.  Am I happy with Jay?  No.  With that being said, I don't think this one play looks bad on either of them, it's just a play that didn't work.  It happens in every game to every team.
 
The fact of the matter is you don't know who the primary receiver was so for you to adamantly defend something that you have no idea about is pretty silly on your part.  We all have our opinions, but you have to be open minded to the fact that you may be wrong since none of us know for sure.

Well, I know enough to know that, as a QB running this offense, if you go into the play knowing that all 5 of your receivers are running short routes (curls) against 8, and yet one of those 8 is giving one of your guys (Hawkins) a serious pre-snap cushion, THAT GUY (Hawkins) is going to be the guy you are going to try to get the ball to first. Primary receiver, or whatever you want to call it, in that circumstance the alignment of the defense wih the play that was being run will have the QB decide to look there first before the ball is even snapped. That's called a pre-snap read, and it's the essence of running a successful WCO. And Andy did exactly what a QB is supposed to do in that situation.

[WRAPradio]

Well, I know enough to know that, as a QB running this offense, if you go into the play knowing that all 5 of your receivers are running short routes (curls) against 8, and yet one of those 8 is giving one of your guys (Hawkins) a serious pre-snap cushion, THAT GUY (Hawkins) is going to be the guy you are going to try to get the ball to first. Primary receiver, or whatever you want to call it, in that circumstance the alignment of the defense wih the play that was being run will have the QB decide to look there first before the ball is even snapped. That's called a pre-snap read, and it's the essence of running a successful WCO. And Andy did exactly what a QB is supposed to do in that situation.

 

Ok.  You may be right.

[alleycat]

Ok.  You may be right.

And this is just supposition, but it's another wrinkle for you all to chew on.

I think the Bolts knew exactly what they were doing, and were trying to goad Andy into throwing the pick. The literally baited him with the guy up high on Hawkins, and then, somewhat surprisingly, the guy on Eifert actually SPLITS off of his assigned man into the zone between Eifert and Hawkins - which would have been right into the path of the ball had Dalton thrown it to the designated pre-snap read.

He was actually doing that a lot before the bye, and my guess is it's one of the things that Marvin's process of self-diagnosis discovered. Dalton's problem was that he was being TOO faithful to the play design and and where his pre-snap reads were telling him to throw.

In other words, this little pass play that has so many of you up in arms may have been, in fact, a great play by our QB and a sign of growth.

But, as I said, that IS just speculation.

[bengaled]

 

 

one flaw that probably contributed most to this play that we haven't talked about was that it was a 5-wide, no back set.  You can't even sell the possibility of a run in that case, which surely is why 8 guys dropped in coverage.

 

 

you're right. as obvious as that was, that slipped right past me.

[Zins30]

I'm just glad we won.  Imagine the arguments going on if we lost!   :00000056:

[|SF2|]

 

 

Yes! Well, he has to catch it first for it to be effective.

Well, you didn't put any qualifiers on the original question. :boese035:

[|SF2|]

 

Exactly this.

 

If the play was a quick hit to Gresham then Dalton threw it too late. There's no arguing that, on that play the ball must leave his hand on the last step of his drop, which was 2 steps in this case. He takes 2 steps, waits, throws.

 

If Gresham was his third/fourth read, he either had to try to fit that throw in or throw it away. 

Its a simple read at the LOS on 1st down.  If the LBs are playing tight, Gresh is off the table.  If they are playing back, he would be the first option since he would be open first.   If the LBs don't bite before Gresh starts his turn, the ball gets thrown.

[bengaled]

 

 

Good point as well.  I think after our TD drive where we ran the ball down their throats (this might be the play), we started in 5 wide instead of sticking to what was working.  

 

 

was indeed the play immediately after SD had come back to tie the game 7-7.

[alleycat]

Ok.  You may be right.

BTW, regardless of whether or not I am, kudos to you for being open to the possibility.