The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly - Chargers

[Bengals1181]

Hey, I was happy Gruden decided to take what the defense would give him and quit trying to hit home runs ala 2011.   We should be dissecting teams close to the line of scrimmage with our 2 TEs, MORE SLANTS to Hawkins and some mid range seams to our primary receivers.  Force the safeties to step up then go for the big play ONCE or TWICE a game if its open. 

 

 

I'd be happy if they ran playaction, screens, slants, and bootlegs and only take a couple deep shots a game.

 

There's been exactly 1 bootleg play the last 3 games.  There was only 1 slant this week.   0 swing passes to a RB.  0 RB screens.  No designed plays to Eifert or  Gresham.  

 

 

During the 4 game win streak, they used their personnel to dictate favorable matchups.  IMO we're not seeing a lot of that the last 3 games.  One noticeable exception is the Green TD against the Chargers.  It was designed to free up AJ in the middle. 

 

[|SF2|]

 

 

oh I believe it, though that doesn't mean they didn't screw it up.

 

IMO it was called but either Gruden failed to give Dalton a set of audibles, Dalton failed to audible out of it when he saw the deep safety pre-snap or it was a called "take the shot no matter what".  

Mehhh, that pass was so horrible I can't believe it was intentional.

[mullichicken25]

One noticeable exception is the Green TD against the Chargers. It was designed to free up AJ in the middle.

 

 

it was also a terrible read by the SD Safety/LB who chose to triple team Gresham instead of covering AJ over the middle.

 

But you're correct, the play was well designed to get Green open to make a catch inside the 10. The blown coverage turned it into a TD. 

[mullichicken25]

Mehhh, that pass was so horrible I can't believe it was intentional.

i think that INT is what happens when a QB throws a disgusting ball to a WR that ran the wrong route on a shitty play

 

even if 1 of those 3 variables was perfect, the other two were so bad that the play never stood a chance

 

it was a clusterfuck of pathetic offense

[Bengals1181]

Mehhh, that pass was so horrible I can't believe it was intentional.

 

it only looked that bad because AJ, admittedly, cut his route and misplayed the ball.  If he keeps running downfield I still think its overthrown, but only by maybe a yard.  Not the 4-5 yards it looked like. 

[Bengals1181]

 

 

I'd be happy if they ran playaction, screens, slants, and bootlegs and only take a couple deep shots a game.

 

There's been exactly 1 bootleg play the last 3 games.  There was only 1 slant this week.   0 swing passes to a RB.  0 RB screens.  No designed plays to Eifert or  Gresham.  

 

 

During the 4 game win streak, they used their personnel to dictate favorable matchups.  IMO we're not seeing a lot of that the last 3 games.  One noticeable exception is the Green TD against the Chargers.  It was designed to free up AJ in the middle. 

 

 

 

as an example of "Bad Jay", this is just a waste as a 1st and 10 playcall IMO.  5 routes, all within 7yds of the line of scrimmage.  Everyone bunched together, no receiver stretching the defense opening it up for guys underneath.

 

 

[Oldcat]

 

 

as an example of "Bad Jay", this is just a waste as a 1st and 10 playcall IMO.  5 routes, all within 7yds of the line of scrimmage.  Everyone bunched together, no receiver stretching the defense opening it up for guys underneath.

 

 

 

Looks like Dalton will have to get rid of it in a second, since 64 is losing his block. So might as well have short routes.

[Bengals1181]

 

Looks like Dalton will have to get rid of it in a second, since 64 is losing his block. So might as well have short routes.

 

 

sure, have 2-3 short routes, but 2 other guys should be stretching out the defense.  

[alleycat]

 

This is my point as well. I think some people think if individuals call out Gruden it means we are defending Dalton, but it doesnt have to be that way. Right now Dalton is what he is. But he has shown the ability to have some really good games, especially when Gruden gets more creative, mixes in plays designed to different guys, rollouts, slants, etc. Yes, Dalton needs to play better, and in some cases a lot better. But Gruden can help him out for sure. Right now I dont feel like Gruden is doing enough to put our offensive playmakers in positions to make plays.

 

Great post. +1

[alleycat]

Hey, I was happy Gruden decided to take what the defense would give him and quit trying to hit home runs ala 2011.   We should be dissecting teams close to the line of scrimmage with our 2 TEs, MORE SLANTS to Hawkins and some mid range seams to our primary receivers.  Force the safeties to step up then go for the big play ONCE or TWICE a game if its open. 

 

We need to play to Andy's strengths which is short yardage stuff. 

 

Yeah, and right in your post you have the tale of the two halves.  Because Gruden absolutely DID NOT do that in the first half, while he did in the second.  And the results speak for themselves. 

 

The reason I can believe the jump ball is because there were just so many other head-scratching route combinations run when the down and distance called for something much different (e.g. all receivers running minimum 10 yard patterns on third and short). A jump ball is total Arena League stuff, and lately I've been wondering, given the go-for-it-all mentality we seem to often have regardless of down, if that isn't infecting Gruden's playcalling.

 

None of which is a defense of Andy Dalton.  But if you want to see how this offense SHOULD be run, just go watch a replay of last night's Seahawks game.  We should be running that many bootlegs, with over/under options for Dalton. 

[alleycat]

 

 

I'd be happy if they ran playaction, screens, slants, and bootlegs and only take a couple deep shots a game.

 

There's been exactly 1 bootleg play the last 3 games.  There was only 1 slant this week.   0 swing passes to a RB.  0 RB screens.  No designed plays to Eifert or  Gresham.  

 

 

And that's the biggest indictment of Gruden's playcalling that there is.  And WTF is it that we haven't actually had a QB who really tries to sell the play-action around here for years? Some of this stuff seems so easy to repair, and their absence so glaring, that you really have to wonder what the major malfunction is.

[alleycat]

Mehhh, that pass was so horrible I can't believe it was intentional.

 

I don't think he's saying that he meant that Andy was trying to throw a bad ball, and I don't think you believe that either.  But that's a very different thing than saying that the call to throw deep despite the coverage was the call.

 

But yes, regardless of the call, it was clearly a terrible throw the second it left Andy's hand.

[Bengals1181]

 

And that's the biggest indictment of Gruden's playcalling that there is.  And WTF is it that we haven't actually had a QB who really tries to sell the play-action around here for years? Some of this stuff seems so easy to repair, and their absence so glaring, that you really have to wonder what the major malfunction is.

 

 

for those who know better, is play action something called on a play, or something a QB does on his own?  When my offense is rushing it 36 times in a game, for over 4ypc, I think I'd have more than 3 playaction passes called.

 

 

Also, since I mentioned the pump fake (which IS something a QB does on his own), while it has worked well for most of the season when used, IMO it was the reason the deep throw to Jones was just a hair short this week.

[alleycat]

 

Looks like Dalton will have to get rid of it in a second, since 64 is losing his block. So might as well have short routes.

 

In fact, on the interception it was 64 who let his man smack Dalton in the mouth just after he let it go.

[alleycat]

 

 

as an example of "Bad Jay", this is just a waste as a 1st and 10 playcall IMO.  5 routes, all within 7yds of the line of scrimmage.  Everyone bunched together, no receiver stretching the defense opening it up for guys underneath.

 

 

 

Yeah, and if you look at the top of your screen you'll see that the running of all of these curls at the same depth against that defense basically makes it impossible to throw to the top two receivers. I can't make out the numbers but the inside guy is bringing his defender right into the lap of the outside guy.

[alleycat]

 

 

for those who know better, is play action something called on a play, or something a QB does on his own?  When my offense is rushing it 36 times in a game, for over 4ypc, I think I'd have more than 3 playaction passes called.

 

 

Also, since I mentioned the pump fake (which IS something a QB does on his own), while it has worked well for most of the season when used, IMO it was the reason the deep throw to Jones was just a hair short this week.

 

Playaction is almost always by design.  One of the things that made Boomer's playaction so strong (other than a killer run game) was that Brooks and Woods ran with violent intent - even though they didn't have the ball. It really helped sell the defense. But the biggest thing is definitely the QB, and how he hides the ball against his hip, or casually turns his back on the Defense, or any other simple deception that most teams understand is fundamental to effectively executing the damn thing.

 

I agree with you on the pump fake, btw.

[|SF2|]

 

Yeah, and if you look at the top of your screen you'll see that the running of all of these curls at the same depth against that defense basically makes it impossible to throw to the top two receivers. I can't make out the numbers but the inside guy is bringing his defender right into the lap of the outside guy.

Look at the pic again.  Gresh is open for an easy 4 or 5.    AJ is open as well for a quick slant IF the ball had already been released.    Probably my biggest knock on Andy is he WAITS until the guys clearly open before releasing the ball.  AJs defender is facing Dalton and AJ has already made his cut into open space.   It was 1st and 10, 5 to 8 yards is a good play.

[WRAPradio]

 

 

as an example of "Bad Jay", this is just a waste as a 1st and 10 playcall IMO.  5 routes, all within 7yds of the line of scrimmage.  Everyone bunched together, no receiver stretching the defense opening it up for guys underneath.

 

 

 

Looks like there are three people open.  Green as both defenders are running away from him, Gresham for a 4-yard gain (defenders are close so it could be broken up unless it's gunned in there low), and Hawk (I think that's him) as the defender is staying with Eifert.  To see one of these Dalton might need and extra half second except for Gresham, you would think his route would be timing and Dalton should already be in this throwing motion if it's going to him.

 

We also don't know if someone ran the wrong route as it's unusual people would be as close as Eifert, Gresham and Hawk are.

[Tigris]

 

Yeah, and if you look at the top of your screen you'll see that the running of all of these curls at the same depth against that defense basically makes it impossible to throw to the top two receivers. I can't make out the numbers but the inside guy is bringing his defender right into the lap of the outside guy.

 

I think it's more spacing. Now I don't know what they're coached to do but I know Gresham has way more room to work with than the two guys above him. If Gresham works the middle of the field more and the #2 from the top works his in (eifert?), which it looks like he is doing, then the spacing is good and one defender can't cover two guys. Also, another thing to consider, this is supposed to be an easy pitch and catch, just like a run, but just to change things up (4 yard gain play basically). I don't think it's a bad first down call just to keep things fresh. I honestly think Gresham fucked up. If he works in, it opens things up IMO. But then again they could have done exactly what they were taught and Gruden's designs aren't the greatest.

 

Possibility: we have a good play call and if Andy fires a strike to AJ, looks like AJ has at least 6 yards. LBs are just eyeing Andy like it's about to be feeding time.

[Bengals1181]

Look at the pic again.  Gresh is open for an easy 4 or 5.    AJ is open as well for a quick slant IF the ball had already been released.    Probably my biggest knock on Andy is he WAITS until the guys clearly open before releasing the ball.  AJs defender is facing Dalton and AJ has already made his cut into open space.   It was 1st and 10, 5 to 8 yards is a good play.

 

 

but Gresham wasn't open.  That's where the ball went and he was double covered.

[Bengals1181]

 

Looks like there are three people open.  Green as both defenders are running away from him, Gresham for a 4-yard gain (defenders are close so it could be broken up unless it's gunned in there low), and Hawk (I think that's him) as the defender is staying with Eifert.  To see one of these Dalton might need and extra half second except for Gresham, you would think his route would be timing and Dalton should already be in this throwing motion if it's going to him.

 

We also don't know if someone ran the wrong route as it's unusual people would be as close as Eifert, Gresham and Hawk are.

 

 

the ball went to Gresham, and it was broken up, because there's 2 guys there waiting on him.  

 

On a first and 10 play, I don't see how the receivers should ever be that bunched close.  That may be an ok play for say a 3rd and short, but not a 1st and 10.

[Orange 'n Black]

I 

 

 

 

the ball went to Gresham, and it was broken up, because there's 2 guys there waiting on him.  

 

On a first and 10 play, I don't see how the receivers should ever be that bunched close.  That may be an ok play for say a 3rd and short, but not a 1st and 10.

 

I need to see the actual play in context, but from this still, the ball should be out already.

[Bengals1181]

 

I think it's more spacing. Now I don't know what they're coached to do but I know Gresham has way more room to work with than the two guys above him. If Gresham works the middle of the field more and the #2 from the top works his in (eifert?), which it looks like he is doing, then the spacing is good and one defender can't cover two guys. Also, another thing to consider, this is supposed to be an easy pitch and catch, just like a run, but just to change things up (4 yard gain play basically). I don't think it's a bad first down call just to keep things fresh. I honestly think Gresham fucked up. If he works in, it opens things up IMO. But then again they could have done exactly what they were taught and Gruden's designs aren't the greatest.

 

Possibility: we have a good play call and if Andy fires a strike to AJ, looks like AJ has at least 6 yards. LBs are just eyeing Andy like it's about to be feeding time.

 

 

I don't have a problem with using the short passing game as an extension of the run game as you suggest, but to me the problem isn't that there are short options, but that the play isn't designed to clear anyone open.

 

For example, if Eifert (2nd from top) is sent deep, you have a free 4yds to the top WR who has a defender playing off coverage.  

[Zins30]

Hey, I was happy Gruden decided to take what the defense would give him and quit trying to hit home runs ala 2011.   We should be dissecting teams close to the line of scrimmage with our 2 TEs, MORE SLANTS to Hawkins and some mid range seams to our primary receivers.  Force the safeties to step up then go for the big play ONCE or TWICE a game if its open. 
 
We need to play to Andy's strengths which is short yardage stuff. 

That's basically what SD has done this year with Rivers. Play the short passing game and allow the run game to heat up. They've basically got one good WR, two good tight ends, and 2 RB who are pretty good at their roles. Sounds like the Bengals but we have a much better D so our record is better.

I don't see that way of playing as a bad thing... Isn't that what the WCO is supposed to be anyway? Short accurate passes and let your good/elite WR do work and get some YAC? Minimize the turnovers by playing this way too... Sign me up!

[Bengals1181]

I 

 

 

I need to see the actual play in context, but from this still, the ball should be out already.

 

 

it maybe should have.  My contention is the design of the play.  That's not to say that the players didn't also screw up part of the play.  

 

I'll try to get a gif of it.